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  1.    #121  
    Again, the question for Palm is, do they go head to head with the iPhone with a pure premium model, or do they take on Google, and everyone else with the freemium model. Who should Palm try to compete against?
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Back on topic:

    Some took umbrage to my calling the Galaxy S a free phone. They argued that Android phones start at the same premium pricepoint as the iPhone. They ignore the fact that those pricepoints drop in a matter of days.

    Now, the forth leg of the Galaxy S has been installed at Verizon. Guess what? It's a BOGOF! Right off the bat, half the units sold are FREE! Every one of those free phones pads the number of Android activations. This is what you call competition? This is the reality of the market. The iPhone has no competition.
    BOGO is not free, dude. Don't know how many times you have to be told. It's subsidized to no additional cost after the $2000+ contract you are agreeing to. It's not like you buy a Samsung Fascinate, and they tell you "Hey...here's a spare, pally. Have a nice day!". If you are signing someone ELSE to Verizon or another LINE up for additional contract/upgrade, you may have another Fascinate at no additional cost.

    Verizon prices pretty much every smartphone with BOGO at one point or another. They do it with featurephones that the iPhone doesn't compete with too. That's part of their business model. They'll do it whether iPhone exists or not. Get a grip.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Back on topic:

    Some took umbrage to my calling the Galaxy S a free phone. They argued that Android phones start at the same premium pricepoint as the iPhone. They ignore the fact that those pricepoints drop in a matter of days.

    Now, the forth leg of the Galaxy S has been installed at Verizon. Guess what? It's a BOGOF! Right off the bat, half the units sold are FREE! Every one of those free phones pads the number of Android activations. This is what you call competition? This is the reality of the market. The iPhone has no competition.
    Depends on the rate of BOGO activation - not everyone buying a particular BOGO phone takes the second phone.

    But more important, you realize that at Verizon, even with the cheapest voice and data plans, you're only saving ~12% of your costs with that free phone or, more accurately, an average of 6% across both phones given the 24 month contract* (since you have to activate both). That's hardly a giveaway. But if this trick works on enough people like you, then Verizon's marketing team has earned their pay.

    *based on:
    Cheapest monthly voice: $40
    Cheapest monthly data: $30
    Total cost, 24 months: $1,680

    Cost of phone: $199 for 24 months
    Per Phone cost of BOGO: $100
  4.    #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    BOGO is not free, dude. Don't know how many times you have to be told. It's subsidized to no additional cost after the $2000+ contract you are agreeing to.
    Dude, you are just arguing semantics. The "F" in BOGOF stands for "free".

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    If you are signing someone ELSE to Verizon or another LINE up for additional contract/upgrade, you may have another Fascinate at no additional cost.
    In other words, "free".

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Verizon prices pretty much every smartphone with BOGO at one point or another. They do it with featurephones that the iPhone doesn't compete with too. That's part of their business model. They'll do it whether iPhone exists or not. Get a grip.
    Thus, my point: these are very different business models. The iPhone is sold under a pure Premium model. The rest of the industry is using a discount/freemium model. They are not the same animal and should never be compared. They do not compete.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Dude, you are just arguing semantics. The "F" in BOGOF stands for "free".
    ...
    In other words, "free".
    ...
    Thus, my point: these are very different business models. The iPhone is sold under a pure Premium model. The rest of the industry is using a discount/freemium model. They are not the same animal and should never be compared. They do not compete.
    You are every marketers dream customer. You see the word "free" and jump on it. I guess you never learned that the real cost of everything is in the small print and the word free is just a word.
  6. #126  
    I've never heard anyone refer to it as "bogof" before.

    Just sayin
  7.    #127  
    Let's pretend that the mythical Verizon iPhone existed. We know it would never be free by any definition. Let's further speculate that the contract for service is the same as any other Verizon phone, minus the crapware.

    The customer is looking to get a pair of phones for herself and her partner. Her budget is tight. The sales person shows her the Fascinate and the iPhone. She really likes the iPhone with its FaceTime capabilities, but the fascinate can be picked up on a bogof.

    The sales person, who earns his commission by selling Android phones, says to the woman, "Yes, but the second Galaxy S is free." Is he lying? No. Is that "real" competition? No, not as I define it. Since the customer was going to buy two phones anyway, and since the contracts cancel each other out, the second Android phone is "FREE".
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Let's pretend that the mythical Verizon iPhone existed. We know it would never be free by any definition. Let's further speculate that the contract for service is the same as any other Verizon phone, minus the crapware.

    The customer is looking to get a pair of phones for herself and her partner. Her budget is tight. The sales person shows her the Fascinate and the iPhone. She really likes the iPhone with its FaceTime capabilities, but the fascinate can be picked up on a bogof.

    The sales person, who earns his commission by selling Android phones, says to the woman, "Yes, but the second Galaxy S is free." Is he lying? No. Is that "real" competition? No, not as I define it. Since the customer was going to buy two phones anyway, and since the contracts cancel each other out, the second Android phone is "FREE".
    Like I said, Verizon marketers love people like you. And Verizon sales staff love it when people like you hang around the lobby telling everyone how awesome their FREE phones are. You're happier, the sales staff is happier, other customers that think like you do are happier, and Pre|Central forums gets a chuckle out of it. It's win-win!

    By they way, when you purchased your last car and the salesman told you he'd "throw in the floor mats for FREE," did you get really excited about it?
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Like I said, Verizon marketers love people like you. And Verizon sales staff love it when people like you hang around the lobby telling everyone how awesome their FREE phones are. You're happier, the sales staff is happier, other customers that think like you do are happier, and Pre|Central forums gets a chuckle out of it. It's win-win!

    By they way, when you purchased your last car and the salesman told you he'd "throw in the floor mats for FREE," did you get really excited about it?
    I know, right? This guy falls for every marketing trick in the book. Verizon plans are the highest. It only makes fiscal sense for them to use short-term enticements to get you to sign up for a contract because the $300-500 they eat on the Fascinate will more than be made up for over the two-year contract.

    Dandbj13 acts like Verizon realized they got stuck with a lemon phone and are blowing them out desperately hoping someone will take them off their hands and clear space in the warehouse.

    No money down, Dandbj13! These crazy deals won't last forever!!!! LOL.....
  10. #130  
    You all are completely missing the point.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    You all are completely missing the point.
    No, you guys are. Only in America does any of this apply, and that's due to our ridiculously RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS carrier system. In the rest of the world, iPhones can and are purchased for free on a contract, just like a few Android phones here. Check O2's website if you don't believe me. Depending on the plan, you can get a 3GS or an iPhone 4 for "free".

    You guys are suckers for a gimmick.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 09/08/2010 at 04:10 PM. Reason: Language - Keep it PG-13 - Post edited
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    You all are completely missing the point.
    Oh I see his point entirely, I just don't buy in to his premise that FREE!! means free.
  13. #133  
    The point is:


    Marketing discounts (free, discounted, half off, BOGOF, family and friends) vs. premium pricing.


    Apple/ATT doesn't do the former. Or at least hasn't.

    Apple iPhone (which by extension, means ATT) is premium priced and not discounted until nearing EOL.

    Most other phones do the former, in some fashion, to generate phone contracts.

    Two different models. Which should PRE compete in, is the question.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    The point is:


    Marketing discounts (free, discounted, half off, BOGOF, family and friends) vs. premium pricing.


    Apple/ATT doesn't do the former. Or at least hasn't.
    But Apple does "marketing discounts" to free elsewhere in the world, and Verizon does it regardless of Android, Blackberry, whatever. Additionally, Verizon does not sell the iPhone, so there's no basis for comparison anyway.

    Apple iPhone (which by extension, means ATT) is premium priced and not discounted until nearing EOL.

    Most other phones do the former, in some fashion, to generate phone contracts.
    ...on Verizon and T-Mobile. Sprint doesn't do that until its phones near EOL either. And again....only in America does any of this apply. It's in no way indicative of the quality or value of the products as a whole, but rather the pricing schemes of certain major American carriers selling completely different products.

    Two different models. Which should PRE compete in, is the question.
    No, it isn't. There is no question. There is only silly snobbery as some here use the most ridiculous of economic perspectives to make it seem like Apple isn't being "competed" against, when it fact it is both here and in the rest of the world, and quite successfully, I might add. There is no question, but merely a search for validation for the OPs laughable thesis posted elsewhere.
  15. #135  
    sigh. You are either being willingly obtuse, or you simply can't understand.

    Apple does no discounting. This is neither a good or bad thing, a snobby thing or not. it simply is their strategy. (and the reduced price with contract is not the same - all US phones have a price, and a price with contract).

    Most (not all) other models have discounting, which are reflected both prices (the straight price, and the price with contract.)

    The question is, should Pre get in the former game, or the latter.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    sigh. You are either being willingly obtuse, or you simply can't understand.

    Apple does no discounting.
    And neither does Samsung or Motorola or any other manufacturer. Those are carrier-sponsored subsidies, just as buying a phone off Amazon gets you an additional subsidy because they tack on an additional ETF if you break your contract. Do you think Amazon buys a Samsung Vibrant for $.10 from Samsung in order to sell it to you for $.01? I mean, talk about obtuse...

    Meanwhile, I just distinctly linked to a huge carrier that does the exact same "free" pricing for current and past models of the iPhone. If you can't understand that, there's nothing else to discuss.

    This has nothing to do with the OSes or the manufacturers. The "freemium" pricing canard is strictly based on a handful of US carriers, and if you're going to discount Android sales as being lesser or not equal because of it, then you should also dismiss all iPhones sold outside of America since they are also sold at "freemium" pricing instead of "premium" pricing.

    Which is it? Either way, the OP's original thesis is invalid. Period.
  17. #137  
    Alright then.

    Pre should just go out there and follow the same strategy they have been. no prob.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    Alright then.

    Pre should just go out there and follow the same strategy they have been. no prob.
    Yeah, because they set Sprint's pricing or Verizon's or ATT's......
  19.    #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    No, you guys are. Only in America does any of this apply, and that's due to our ridiculously F-ed up carrier system. In the rest of the world, iPhones can and are purchased for free on a contract, just like a few Android phones here. Check O2's website if you don't believe me. Depending on the plan, you can get a 3GS or an iPhone 4 for "free".

    You guys are suckers for a gimmick.
    Other countries do have different laws regarding these things. Even so, you are not exactly being fair with your comparison. In the case of O2, their up-front price is clearly connect to the contract price. Pay more up-front, pay less each month. On Verizon, the contract price is the same.

    Here, it is an apples to apples comparison of one phone's up-front price of $200, next to another phone that has no up-front price. The cost of the service is the same, and therefore, is canceled out. There is a difference between discounting the hardware, and amortizing the cost. O2 amortizes, Verizon discounts. There is a difference.
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Other countries do have different laws regarding these things. Even so, you are not exactly being fair with your comparison. In the case of O2, their up-front price is clearly connect to the contract price. Pay more up-front, pay less each month. On Verizon, the contract price is the same.

    Here, it is an apples to apples comparison of one phone's up-front price of $200, next to another phone that has no up-front price. The cost of the service is the same, and therefore, is canceled out. There is a difference between discounting the hardware, and amortizing the cost. O2 amortizes, Verizon discounts. There is a difference.
    No, it's a different carrier with a different pricing model. Verizon does BOGO for most of their lineup regardless of manufacturer or whether it's a smartphone or featurephone. ATT does not.

    I'm done with the hair splitting, tho. You've proven that all devices - including iPhone - are "freemium", depending on your country and carrier. Congrats. Next thread.
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