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  1. #21  
    Aww, come on. What would Google employees possibly have to work on apart from Android...

    ...well, besides:

    Maps
    Docs
    Gmail
    the search engine
    Ads
    Buzz
    Chrome
    Chrome OS
    Books
    Translate
    YouTube....

    I mean, please. I'm sure the Google cafeteria chef who appeared on Top Chef a few seasons ago is probably coding in between risottos. The janitors there are notorious for their UI design skills. I mean, it's so totally unfair the advantages they had over the 1k employees at Palm.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Aww, come on. What would Google employees possibly have to work on apart from Android...

    ...well, besides:

    Maps
    Docs
    Gmail
    the search engine
    Ads
    Buzz
    Chrome
    Chrome OS
    Books
    Translate
    YouTube....

    I mean, please. I'm sure the Google cafeteria chef who appeared on Top Chef a few seasons ago is probably coding in between risottos. The janitors there are notorious for their UI design skills. I mean, it's so totally unfair the advantages they had over the 1k employees at Palm.
    You know what? You're right - the implications that everyone at google is an Android programmer first and a (fill_in_your_secondary_job_here) second is ingenious. Clutch really nailed that one!
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    Wow... you really are incredible. You find the negative in everything webOS related.

    So.. just because Google works on other projects... that means that being a company of that size does not have an advantage over a company palms size?
    Ridiculous... seriously.
    I work for a 300k employee company. Departments take on sections of projects all the time. They pool their resources to get projects completed ..etc.
    So why did you post false information about the Android timelines then?

    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    Main point 1000 employees vs 22000 employees. More resources... get it? more $$$$ get it?
    I think I get it. You're saying Google is very inefficient because they have employees sitting around doing nothing, but they can mix and match them, willy-nilly, across their divisions, and they suddenly become efficient, productive, useful employees. After all, programming in general, and operating system development in specific is just that simple and obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    The fact that someone is comparing Palm to google ability to put out big updates in a timely manner... is absurd.
    Palm was smaller... and managed to put out an amazing mobile OS... and update it 12 times in about a year.

    HP ( 300k employees) owns Palm now... we will see how that changes going forward.

    YES - I think bigger companies have an advantage over smaller ones. Pooling resources - $$ for talent, $$$ period.
    22 to 1.... big diff. You chosing to think i was implying that all of the 22k work on android.... weak.
    By your logic, then, HP has a much larger share of the smartphone market than RIM, HTC, Apple, Motorla, Samsung (should I keep listing?)... After all, they have 300,000 employees and they make smartphones. They are bigger and (seemingly, by your description) better than any other company at this.

    Why are HP smartphones so hard to find in the marketplace then?
  4. #24  
    Are you saying there's a direct correlation between resources-on-hand and developmental progress/frequency along with "better" talent/employees?

    How do you explain Nokia? Or RIM? or Microsoft? Or Palm at the peak of PalmOS/Treo sales?It must not be much of an advantage if most of the companies that enjoy it never utilize it.

    Instead of focusing on Palm putting out 12 updates or whatever, let's look at the substance of those updates.

    Has one of them eliminated the persistent lag and unresponsiveness that drives so many here to overclock? No. Has one of them provided an SDK with complete API access to bring them on par with Apple and Google? No. Has one of them taken a significant amount of the safest, most basic patches (e.g. landscape email) and made them part of the OS? No. Has one enabled the GPU for usage other than PDK games? No. Has one eliminated the unprofessional context-free menus that offer cut/copy/paste options in apps where there is no text entry whatsoever? No.

    But they did add video recording and 3D games.

    On the other hand, Google has provided turn-by-turn voice guided navigation, Google voice, several other first party apps, significant performance improvements with the new JIT compiler, a new 3D photo gallery, UI changes, new voice features, multiple keyboard languages, carrier independent mobile hotspot, car mode, and exponential growth of their app catalog.

    Whatever has caused this disparity, this means that before Palm can begin advancing like Google has been doing, they must first stop to fix glaring OS flaws that have been around for over a year.
  5. shotyme's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    You know what? You're right - the implications that everyone at google is an Android programmer first and a (fill_in_your_secondary_job_here) second is ingenious. Clutch really nailed that one!
    I think the one thing people forget is that Palm is doing both their hardware and software. So when Google is making Android, they are focusing on the software part only. HTC, Motorola, Samsung, and other companies worry about the hardware and how the software will run. This is why you have a different experience with each Android device. Call it good or bad, but Palm has been limited. They have 1,000 employees. They have to divide their employees up for all departments. Hardware, sales, software, developer relations, marketing, support, research and development, contract negotiations, Human resources, janitorial staff, etc.

    True, Google may have other projects and have to divide their staff with, such as their search engine, Chrome, advertising, etc, but Palm is a smaller company that. This only means you have less people to work on certain projects. Also, in the same token, not everyone at palm is a webOS programmer and (fill_in_your_secondary_job_here) either.
  6. #26  
    Umm...that Palm does hardware and software SHOULD be an advantage. Software that is coded to take advantage of hardware should - in theory - always perform better than hardware-agnostic OSes that have to run across a wide range of devices.

    Palm squandered this advantage. The added resources from HP don't seem to be changing things much as they are still scrambling to fill key positions and can't get 1.4.5 out to the majority of US carriers.
  7. #27  
    Keep in mind... Larger companies have more bureaucracy and more inefficiencies. It's the nature of the beast.

    Also, think about this... How often does a larger company purchase a small start-up because they came out with an excellent product?
    How often does that large company then screw up the product (or not advance it further)?


    Smaller tight knit development groups often come out with more refined or innovative products. Large companies buy these products/companies and they often become less innovative/effective.

    It happens all the time.
    How often does the reverse happen?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by shotyme View Post
    I think the one thing people forget is that Palm is doing both their hardware and software. So when Google is making Android, they are focusing on the software part only. HTC, Motorola, Samsung, and other companies worry about the hardware and how the software will run. This is why you have a different experience with each Android device. Call it good or bad, but Palm has been limited. They have 1,000 employees. They have to divide their employees up for all departments. Hardware, sales, software, developer relations, marketing, support, research and development, contract negotiations, Human resources, janitorial staff, etc.
    I'm curious - by your how did RIM survive/succeed? Or are you saying Palm couldn't find any more people to hire so they were limited to 1,000 employees? Or are you saying Palm had no idea how to run a business because they couldn't properly staff their corporation to turn a profit in today's exploding smartphone marketplace? How does Palm's size have anything to do with Palm's ability to complete in the marketplace - especially while being baked by some pretty deep venture capital pockets?

    And FWIW, Palm created the software and designed the hardware, but didn't have to manufacture it or ship it.
  9. #29  
    Anyone here know how many Apple employees are on the iOS Dev Team?
  10. #30  
    All of them. Haven't you been reading this thread? I kid, of course.
  11. #31  
    As of about a year and a half ago there were roughly 50 people as the core team. The work the core team does meshes and blends with the work of a larger team upwards of 150 people.

    So, as of about a year and a half ago there were roughly 200 people working on iOS. Apple employed around 30,000 - 35,000 during that timeframe, that equates to ~0.6% of Apple.
  12. shotyme's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Umm...that Palm does hardware and software SHOULD be an advantage. Software that is coded to take advantage of hardware should - in theory - always perform better than hardware-agnostic OSes that have to run across a wide range of devices.

    Palm squandered this advantage. The added resources from HP don't seem to be changing things much as they are still scrambling to fill key positions and can't get 1.4.5 out to the majority of US carriers.

    That would be true in most cases, but you have to have the funds for both HARDWARE and SOFTWARE. In Android's case, Google spends millions on R&D on the SOFTWARE part. HTC, Motorola spends millions on R&D on HARDWARE. Palm is limited in what it can spend in it's R&D. Apple has millions lying around, so it is easier for them to do it, which is ideal, but again you have to have the FUNDS to do it, otherwise you have no advantage.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    I'm curious - by your how did RIM survive/succeed? Or are you saying Palm couldn't find any more people to hire so they were limited to 1,000 employees? Or are you saying Palm had no idea how to run a business because they couldn't properly staff their corporation to turn a profit in today's exploding smartphone marketplace? How does Palm's size have anything to do with Palm's ability to complete in the marketplace - especially while being baked by some pretty deep venture capital pockets?

    And FWIW, Palm created the software and designed the hardware, but didn't have to manufacture it or ship it.
    RIM is also, a much larger company than Palm. They focused on the business word of email and expanded out. It seems you are now trying to expand the question, since I only responded to one bit of your quote. I was merely breaking down how a company like Palm has to break up its staff to do what other companies.

    Apple - revenue is 32+ billion dollars a year. They do both their hardware and software, spawned by iPod sales and overpriced Macs. 34,000+ employees

    Google - revenue is 23+ billion dollars a year. Focus on software entirely, no hardware, spawned by Advertising system from its robust search engine. 20,000+ employees

    HTC - revenue is 4+ billions dollars a year. Focus on hardware, with tweets to software. Spawned by Windows Mobile and Android sales. 5,000+ employees

    Palm - revenue is 700+ million dollars a year. Focus on hardware and software. Spawned first PDA with Treos to follow, now webOS. 1,000+ employees.


    See any disparities?

    If you have the resources, you can do both hardware and software and reap the rewards, otherwise you lose your advantages.

    Just stating differences on how resources can are used
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by shotyme View Post
    That would be true in most cases, but you have to have the funds for both HARDWARE and SOFTWARE. In Android's case, Google spends millions on R&D on the SOFTWARE part. HTC, Motorola spends millions on R&D on HARDWARE. Palm is limited in what it can spend in it's R&D. Apple has millions lying around, so it is easier for them to do it, which is ideal, but again you have to have the FUNDS to do it, otherwise you have no advantage.
    Lack of funding might excuse cheap build quality. It doesn't excuse bad design/execution decisions such as:

    • Picking hardware that you fail to utilize (e.g. the GPU) with your software
    • Placing a USB port on the side of your device that makes docks inconvenient and adds stress to the plastic, then covering it with a flimsy door
    • Adding insufficient RAM to accomplish the main virtue of your product (i.e. multitasking)
    • Ummm...the Pixi?
  14. #34  
    unbelievable ....
    anyways...
    we shall see if by HP buying out Palm and leaving them intact, and allowing them to usee all of HP resources ( hp labs etc) will prove to be the perfect blend of small company innovation backed by big company resources.

    big companies move slow... Lets hope HP lets Palm move fast.
    it's worth the wait for me to see the updates to webOS and hardware... Before making any decisions on a new phone.
    webOS is the better overall OS ... Especially with it's potential. It is the youngest compared to android and ios...
  15. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    big companies move slow...
    Uh.

    Isn't that the exact opposite of the point you were trying to make?
  16. #37  
    Even though that article attempts to point the blame at Google. The blame (for the issues outlined) fall solely on the US carriers (and to an extent.... consumers).

    The article tries to set a premise that Apple strong armed AT&T into some type of concessions that were good for the consumer (???) and would lead into the separation of hardware and software... which after 3 years, AT&T still has locked completely up... But surely Apple had no hand in that.

    Then it goes on to set the premise that Google failed to "liberate" US consumers because the Nexus One sold poorly (again because consumers did not buy-in)... and by providing this mobile OS to phone manufacturers and carriers and thereby "allowing" them to place "bloatware" on the phone... They failed us all...

    It's a hypocritical article because he is criticizing Google for not "promoting" (actually strong arming) open handset standards by promoting the use of open source software (Android) and allowing the carriers/manufacturers to use the source as in their products in a manner in which they chose.

    It's just pro apple political-type spin imo.

    BTW Palm also allows this (carrier specific apps, additional charges for hotspot/nav, etc)...
    Last edited by gmanvbva; 08/23/2010 at 02:16 PM. Reason: typo
  17. aapold's Avatar
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    #38  
    One thing I'm thankful for is the lack of branding. w/ Android, if its Moto, they have to put Motoblur on it. If its hTC, they want that SenseUI or whatever. So you get all these devices where the manufacturer spends all this time adding unneeded stuff to it, then the carrier wants to put their specific stuff on that, so that's why you get new devices still being released with 1.6 android and having to wait for them to put all their branding all over 2.1 or 2.2 before they let it go out.

    I used Windows mobile before my pre, and the difference in performance between a rooted clean device and what Motorolla and AT&T did to it is ridiculous.

    I still feel AT&T is responsible for what delays we see in 1.4.5 getting to their Palms (VZ as well?) but at least its not for skinning the UI.
  18. #39  
    It will be interesting to see what Gingerbread brings.

    Touchwiz, MotoBlur and Sense all came about because Android was originally less "user friendly" than some other devices and manufactures were trying to create a competitive advantage over their competitors. There is not very much blatant advertising branding on most Android handsets from the manufacturers.

    Android has slowly moved into be a more "user friendly" interface and Gingerbread is supposed to take it to another level.

    There is some speculation that Sense, TouchWiz, etc. may not be in Gingerbread or that the OS will alllow for thise type of "skinning" to be done more easily and disabled (if desired). But that all remains to be seen.
  19. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by aapold View Post
    One thing I'm thankful for is the lack of branding. w/ Android, if its Moto, they have to put Motoblur on it. If its hTC, they want that SenseUI or whatever. So you get all these devices where the manufacturer spends all this time adding unneeded stuff to it, then the carrier wants to put their specific stuff on that, so that's why you get new devices still being released with 1.6 android and having to wait for them to put all their branding all over 2.1 or 2.2 before they let it go out.

    I used Windows mobile before my pre, and the difference in performance between a rooted clean device and what Motorolla and AT&T did to it is ridiculous.

    I still feel AT&T is responsible for what delays we see in 1.4.5 getting to their Palms (VZ as well?) but at least its not for skinning the UI.
    While partially true, Palm still has the middle-man, the carrier. While the Pre's hardware may not come with a Sprint/AT&T/Verizon logo on it, they do pre-load apps and control the updates that Palm sends.

    At least with the iPhone there is no middle man. Apple controls the updates, applications, etc. The only thing Apple doesn't have control of is the network itself.

    This was the case for the Nexus One but it never really took off due to no subsidizing and being only being available for purchase online.
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