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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by protofa View Post
    +1. non-business users are abandoning their blackberries in droves.
    That's because they can't. It's not like corporate users are given a choice of what phone they want to use, any more than they given a choice about what laptop they have to carry.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Seems the new Galaxy S blah blah blah on T-Mobile has had it's price slashed by half. It seems you can get it for free if you know where to look. This is how Android "competes".

    It seems like companies are giving up on the premium model really fast, or they were never premium competitors in the first place.
    The Vibrant is still $199 after a $50 mail-in rebate at T-Mobile. Worldwide sales have already been brisk, and Sprint has already reached the limit of pre-orders for the Epic 4G. Don't really think price undercutting is how Android succeeds.

    if that were the case, Palm would be winning since HP is paying people with $50 gift cards to take a Pre Plus....ANY Pre Plus.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I get that, but the GS has only been out for a couple of weeks, if that, and it's already in the bargain bin. It was torched.
    What I was trying to say was, since there are cheaper Android options on T-Mobile, people may be going for those, since it's a budget carrier to begin with. So T-Mobile decided on a one day sale(back to $200 now) to get those types of people to buy.

    The phone itself hasn't been torched. Those who can afford it have bought it. They consider it a major upgrade over any other T-Mobile Android offering, which it is.

    RIM on the other hand, seems to have problems selling the Torch period. But that's because it's a year too late in specs and too expensive at $200 for that reason.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    The Vibrant is still $199 after a $50 mail-in rebate at T-Mobile. Worldwide sales have already been brisk, and Sprint has already reached the limit of pre-orders for the Epic 4G. Don't really think price undercutting is how Android succeeds.

    if that were the case, Palm would be winning since HP is paying people with $50 gift cards to take a Pre Plus....ANY Pre Plus.
    Let's be clear about this. The Vibrant is a bargain bin product. And yes, much of the Android success came when Verizon started doing BOGOF deals. They are not succeeding in the premium market; they are succeeding in the blue light special market.
  5. #45  
    ^That's BS.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    ^That's BS.
    Which part? Did you click on the link? Perhaps you missed it. I will make it easier to see.

    Amazon.com: Samsung Vibrant Android Phone (T-Mobile): Cell Phones & Service

    The Vibrant IS one penny shy of being a free phone. Even Verizon admitted that the bogof offers helped spur the sales of the Droid. Android phones live off of rebates, bogof, free with contract, and other such offers. They only live for a short time on the premium shelf before being moved to the blue light special bin. The iPhone, by contrast, lives on the premium shelf until Apple releases a new model. Even then, they only go as low as $99. Which part of that do you think is BS?
  7. #47  
    Pretty much all of it. If you think temporary third party sales FOR NEW CUSTOMERS TO A CARRIER ONLY = bargain bin, then every phone on the market aside from iPhone is a bargain bin device.
  8. #48  
    We know Apple keeps it's stuff high to do the "premium" thing. Apple is dictating that price, not carriers.

    But the 1 cent price for Androids is misleading, for one. Best Buy, Amazon and Let's Talk all do these types of cheap deals with most phones, with contract restrictions. That's how they hook you. But the phones themselves aren't really bargain bin. If you really think Android phones are worth 1 cent, ask for them off contract. Then you'll find out the real price. Not bargain bin.

    With carrier rebate, many Android phones are still expensive by US standards. Not bargain bin. The carriers themselves have also not marked down many of their Android phones, meaning they're still selling at the carrier dictated price. So not bargain bin.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 08/20/2010 at 03:58 PM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    [COLOR="Navy"]We know Apple keeps it's stuff high to do the "premium" thing. Apple is dictating that price, not carriers.
    This is how the "premium" market works with all types of items. Otherwise, you are not dealing with the premium marketplace. What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    [COLOR="Navy"]But the 1 cent price for Androids is misleading, for one. Best Buy, Amazon and Let's Talk all do these types of cheap deals with most phones, with contract restrictions. That's how they hook you. But the phones themselves aren't really bargain bin.
    It's $0.01. There is nothing misleading about it. Let's Talk, and the like, are bargain bin resellers. As for the off contract price, that is clearly displayed on the Amazon page. If they thought they could get that price, they wouldn't be selling it for a penny.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    With carrier rebate, many Android phones are still expensive by US standards. Not bargain bin. The carriers themselves have also not marked down many of their Android phones, meaning they're still selling at the carrier dictated price. So not bargain bin.
    Rebates are just another discount program so that a product can compete on price. True, many carriers do not offer deep discounts, but that is to take advantage of people who haven't yet heard of the internet.

    There is nothing to debate, here. No matter how you define it, a penny is bargain bin pricing. Heck, half price is bargain bin pricing after only a week on the market. There would be no Android explosion if there were no cheap and free Android phones. They tried going the premium rout, but discovered that they were not Apple after all.

    This is why the Pre is having so much trouble, and the next one will have the same trouble; the cheap and free market is saturated with Android. The premium market does not care about coupons and rebates. They only care about the perceived quality of the product. That is not the Android buyer, nor the Palm buyer. That could change.

    You are right when you say that Apple is the only one in that market. And it is why I continue to say that the iPhone is without peer or competition. That is not to say that there are no good phones to choose from, but that they are not sold in the same way to the same type of shopper.

    Honestly, I don't know what offended you. Clearly, you think some of these bargain bin products should be on the premium shelf. The ones selling and buying the products think they are worth about a penny with contract. Your argument is not with me.
  10. #50  
    Premium really needs to be "premium" IMO. Other premium products often truly do give something more. But Apple uses the "premium" angle to hook people who don't look any further. People fall for this over and over. They don't realize that iPhone actually gives less in some areas. They just go with the hype that iPhone is premium. But honestly, iPhone 3G/3GS really aren't better than some other good phones out there IMO. The 4th version does deserve notice due to the new specs however(but I'm still waiting for the 5th lol).

    I must say the first version forced form factor changes of many phones for the better, and was well built. But the OS was lacking. It wasn't until about 3.1.3 that the firmware became up to par with other smartphones, in terms of just basic features. And you still need apps to fill gaps(often jailbreak apps). Android has this problem in some areas too, but I'm amazed you need a firmware update from Apple just to use your own wallpaper as a background. No other smartphone required this, none. Not even dumphones required this. IMO, firmware lacking features other phones have for years is not a premium experience. Nor is having all your actions dictated to you like you're a child, even after you've spent decent money.

    1 cent and actually any other low amount is misleading, and has been for a long time. This is an artificial low price. You have to jump through hoops to get those prices. If you want no contracts or keep your number and plan, and/or avoid through the roof ETF; you'll pay more or closer to what the phone is really worth retail(and sometimes jacked up). I've read some do not allow porting or there's always some problem with it and you have to get a new number. And you may not get these deals if renewing, except at Best Buy. What Amazon, Best Buy, Let's Talk, etc. is hoping for is lots of customers roped into expensive contracts these operations probably get commission for. They're in business to grab as many new customers as possible. 1 cent and many more people take notice than they would at $200. It isn't really that they think the phone's only worth 1 cent, it's a marketing ploy. And apparently other manufacturers have given them freedom to offer huge subsidies.

    Most other manufacturers just want to sell phones and are more flexible because of that. It doesn't make their phones worth any less. What they did was smart with Android, make deals so people take a look. Then they do and see that yes you can again use your smartphones the way you want. And have better physical specs along with being treated like an adult. Except AT&T and Motorola, always some jerks messing up the party, lol.

    P.S. Sorry for the long post. I don't think I expressed myself well enough earlier about why I think a lot of this "premium" stuff concerning cell phones is BS.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    Can you post a link that confirms that Palm only sold 50,000 phones over the launch weekend? I think that sounds a bit low, other than VZW. I certainly hope that Sprint and AT&T both moved more than 50,000 devices on their first weekend...
    The difference here is the Pre was sold out everywhere by mid morning on launch day. Palm had manufacturing issues that really hurt the Sprint launch. It was tough to find a Pre the first week it was released.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post

    I must say the first version forced form factor changes of many phones for the better, and was well built. But the OS was lacking.
    Compared to what? It was one of the first multi touch phones, so what, compared to other capacitive touch screen phones, was it lacking?
  13. #53  
    Price doesn't mean its a bad phone. In fact, Palm Pres are free now. Amazon pricing also doesnt reflect retail store pricing. The Torch is still $199 at those locations, I imagine it will fall too. But the Galaxy S phones aren't bad phone. They do what most android phones are capable of. Also, the Sprint Epic is a galaxy phone and I dont think too many people will consider it bad. Do I like WebOS better, yes, but it doesnt make other phones bad.
    The price on the Torch was wrong to start with. Not many non-business consumers want to spend $199 on a Blackberry when the iphone is $199, the Captivate is $149 and the Pre is $29 to free.
  14. #54  
    Diva, I will not bother to quote your post as it stands on its on. I understand your point, I just think it happens to be wrong. I think your ideas are somewhat motivated by the desire to withhold the props due Apple for creating, maintaining, and leading the premium consumer smartphone market. You also may want to defend the bargain bin model because that is where the Pre is right now, and has been for some time.

    Think back before the iPhone. There were smartphones on the market. But they were limited to business people, the very rich, or poser geek elite types. They were not sold to consumers, and they were not cheap. They could not be found for free, bogof, or even a decent discount. If you wanted one, you had to pay the price. Apple was the first to put a phone from that category on the market that appealed to consumers, even with the premium price tag.

    It is disingenuous to pretend like there is no difference between a premium smartphone and a bargain phone. The same is true for luxury cars and mass market cars, high-end jewelry and costume jewelry, a hand-made, designer dress and a blue-light special, etc. For years, i didn't know the difference between a first-class ticket and coach. They are both on the same plain and get you to your destination at the same time. I now understand the difference. You may not see the difference. You may not value the difference. A Rolex wearing exec driving to work in her $100,000 sports car will get to work at the same time as the Timex wearing stock boy who drives to work in his clapped out Ford. The fact that the value proposition is not there for you is meaningless, except to you.

    Premium is determined by the market, not the marketer. You keep implying that Apple is somehow fooling people into believing that their products are premium. At some point in your last post, you said that people keep falling for Apple's premium branding, or something to that affect. This is highly dismissive, and equally offensive. It is just a different way of saying that anyone who buys Apple products are stupid. No one is "falling" for anything. You can only get away with that sort of branding deception once. Check out the customer satisfaction surveys. No matter which ones you look at, they all show Apple customers are extremely satisfied with their purchases, while Android buyers, and most everyone else, are not. The same thing shows up when you look at repeat business. iPhone buyers can't wait to buy another iPhone. Android buyers, not so much. No one is being fooled; they're being satisfied.

    Premium is not determined by the number of people who buy, but by the price people are willing to pay. There will always be more Fords than Lexus on the road. Look at what people are willing to pay for a Lexus. Ford has trouble getting a third that for their cars. AT&T sell the iPhone, but they also sell Android, BB, and Palm. They all started at around the same price. The iPhone is still selling at that price, and they can't make enough of them to go around. The Torch is half off after a week, and the Pre is less than free. Once again, your opinion of the relative merits of these devices is irrelevant. The market has spoken. The iPhone IS a premium smartphone, and it has no peer. Verizon can't give away as many Droids as AT&T can sell full-priced iPhones. No fooling, no trickery, all the facts are on the table for the customers to see.

    The manufacturers and carriers see it too. Don't you believe that if Verizon could sell all their stock of Android phones on the same terms as iPhones are sold, they would? Do you really think that a heavily discounted, or free phone is all the same to manufacturers and carriers as premium priced phones that sell? It is absurd to compare iPhone sales with anything else. It is not Apple that is doing it. They just announce their sales numbers and move on. The rest of the industry is trying to compare themselves to Apple. Why? Because that is the high-water mark. But they are completely different markets. iPhone buyers are not interested in coupons, discounts, rebates, and the like. They trip over a hundred of those on their way to putting their name on a waiting list for a $200 - $300 iPhone.

    The competition for the Pre is Android and BB and Nokia. How long do you think it will take for MS to start allowing their new flagship devices to be "sold" for free? They all want to be Apple. They all want to sell into that premium market. They just can't. Again, your opinion and my opinion are meaningless. Premium is in the eye of the buyer. The Rolex, Lexus, and iPhone are premium items. Timex, Ford, and Android, not so much.

    Sorry for the long paragraphs. Too lazy to break them up.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    Compared to what? It was one of the first multi touch phones, so what, compared to other capacitive touch screen phones, was it lacking?
    I said the OS, not the physical phone. The physical phone itself was a game changer. The OS was a game changer due to ease of touch use. But it lacked MMS, single call item delete(still does), single message delete, no drafts for texts(still does), etc. Those are basic phone features.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #56  
    Rolex and Lexus have the features for true premium. Look at what they give you compared to normal watches and cars.

    Apple has good build quality but often offers less or gives you features you should have now at a later time, but tells you it's premium and people believe it. Sorry but that's the way I see it. Consumers can be led around by brand names charging more, implying that they're premium. Monster is another such example. Sony another. Bose is considered by quite a few to be such too. But when you look at what you actually have there, "premium" it may not exactly be. More like a decent product but you're paying more for the name.

    I don't think price truly determines premium in the end. Much of the "premium" stuff is simply good marketing. It's only worth paying more if you truly like the product or company. Is the item itself premium? It's often subjective. JMO.

    As for repeat iPhone buyers, they obviously like the phone so they're willing to keep buying. But actually the iPhone isn't so "premium" anymore on contract. $200, many people can swing that. And there's so many iPhones around here, "premium" is lost there too. Premium also implies cost more so less can afford it. You have 10 people or more on the same block with iPhones around here at any given time, LOL. The iPhone actually is more like a "must have" phone, more so than premium at this point. A phone so popular people will clamor for it, obviously its supply and demand. No need to lower the price if it still sells out.

    But that doesn't make Android phones bargain basement just because the manufacturers agree to bigger subsidies for them. Although Verizon and Sprint seem to be getting good money for their top Androids, and they are being sold out.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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    #57  
    HP/Palm will suffer the same fate if the next handset is designed anywhere similiar to the current pre.

    Either go big screen or don't play at all!
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by toyotast165 View Post
    very true.... Plus it is like a knock off of the pre (with higher build quality)
    the os is like a carbon copy of webOS and the phone itself looks like a pre.... Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery though
    And let's not forget they choose to go with AT&T as the exclusive carrier.
  19. 11B1P's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Why would this be, again?
    A month ago, I used my upgrade to go from BB to a Pre Plus. A week ago, my wife upgraded from a BB to a Pixi Plus. We both love our Palm's. My wife tells me every couple of days how much she loves her Pixi. We both liked our BB's and didn't have any problems with them.

    Several months ago, I was excited to hear about the Torch. Unfortunately, RIM chose AT&T to release it on. Poor mistake in my opinion. Had the Torch come out on Vzw, I probably would have upgraded to it.

    Now, after having my Pre and seeing the Torch, I'm disappointed in RIM. The Torch boasts about the same things that Pre has been doing for over a year. As said before, the Torch is just now coming out with 2009 features.
  20. #60  
    You can argue Premium or non-Premium, but Verizon's pricing and Android-heavy lineup is working since they continue to add more phone customers on more expensive plans than ATT does each quarter, and that is where the money - premium or otherwise - truly is in the long run.

    If that's "bargain bin", then every carrier wants to be Big Lots.

    America is one of the few countries where this matters, anyway, as most of these flagship devices can be had for free or next-to-nothing in the rest of the world depending on the contract you sign.
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