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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I'm kind of wondering what a smartphone hardware manufacturer does for over a year if they don't design, manufacture, and release new hardware? Assuming that the Pre was designed sometime before CES 2009 followed shortly thereafter by the Pixi, there should have been more activity on the hardware side other than designing the Pre Plus without a button. I mean, we've had two versions of the Droid since then and a Nexus One that has come and gone.

    Something must have been in the works for this Summer that was aborted by HP. Smartphone product cycles are pretty important. To let the Pre stagnate on the Sprint network without a logically timed refresh for loyal users is pretty bad.
    great observation.

    Looks like HP has bigger plans than just a smartphone.
    They may be completely remaking Palms Smartphone...
    Who knows....

    Complaining about it def does not make a diff.

    when they release ... it will be huge.

    until then... lots of work to be done.

    HP has been working on this for month... not months.

    There is only so much they could do... before the acquisition was finalized.

    soo any news on this product line before October would be a surprise to me.
  2. #102  
    I agree, Clutch. I don't think it's bad at all for HP to wait....IF they are truly whipping WebOS into shape and making it work correctly across all hardware. Throwing the current iteration and apps on a souped up Pre with a somewhat bigger screen would make a bad first impression for HP's newest acquisition.

    I wanted them to hot shot some hardware when I first heard of the takeover, but it makes sense to wait. Distance whatever comes next from the bad, bad, bad stench of failure around the Pre and Pixi.
  3.    #103  
    I would guess that there was probably a pretty solid hardware plan at Palm during the Spring to release something in the Summer. However, the failure of the Verizon launch and necessity to be acquired probably meant that: 1) Whatever hardware they had planned would not fare any better; 2) The delay and subsequent ramping up of the smartphone race made them realize that their new hardware was already obsolete.

    Let's say that the screen resolution stayed at 320 x 480 which is very likely what they were planning in the Spring. The release of the larger screen Androids and higher res iPhone 4 make that obsolete all of a sudden. The shiny new Blackberry has it and people are saying that it may just tide them over but won't win any new customers.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I would guess that there was probably a pretty solid hardware plan at Palm during the Spring to release something in the Summer. However, the failure of the Verizon launch and necessity to be acquired probably meant that: 1) Whatever hardware they had planned would not fare any better; 2) The delay and subsequent ramping up of the smartphone race made them realize that their new hardware was already obsolete.

    Let's say that the screen resolution stayed at 320 x 480 which is very likely what they were planning in the Spring. The release of the larger screen Androids and higher res iPhone 4 make that obsolete all of a sudden. The shiny new Blackberry has it and people are saying that it may just tide them over but won't win any new customers.
    True, but I don't think there was any carrier ready to carry a new Palm phone this summer. Verizon was blowing out what Pre and Pixi stock they had and giving away free hotspot data. AT&T just got the last-gen models and needed to move those. Sprint still had and has a sizable backlog of Pre and Pixi devices, and wanted all new top-of-the-line phones to be 4G with a big screen.

    Palm's "new hardware plan" was probably upended in the spring when they first realized how bad sellthough was ahead of the publicly announced results. That's also what triggered them to put themselves up for sale and solicit buyers. There was no way they were going to be able to clear that backlog before they ran out of money and/or carrier good faith.
  5.    #105  
    I agree. That means that any new hardware for the Summer wasn't just delayed by the acquisition as many people here assumed - it was cancelled. Furthermore, with all of the competition coming later this year there is probably a complete reassessment of what their target market is.

    Here's a provocative question for you - with all of this in mind, is there any real reason for HP Palm to release a new smartphone before a tablet?
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    True, but I don't think there was any carrier ready to carry a new Palm phone this summer. Verizon was blowing out what Pre and Pixi stock they had and giving away free hotspot data. AT&T just got the last-gen models and needed to move those. Sprint still had and has a sizable backlog of Pre and Pixi devices, and wanted all new top-of-the-line phones to be 4G with a big screen.

    Palm's "new hardware plan" was probably upended in the spring when they first realized how bad sellthough was ahead of the publicly announced results. That's also what triggered them to put themselves up for sale and solicit buyers. There was no way they were going to be able to clear that backlog before they ran out of money and/or carrier good faith.
    it's all speculation... But I think you are spot on.
    they did not anticipate verizons huge backing of droid.... And it crushed palm. Palm was punished for launching pre exclusive on sprint... Sending a message to the industry... And sending pre inventory through the roof...while sending the stock from $18... tdown to as low as $3... In 1 qtr. Palm was in no position to launch any phone.... No matter how badass it may have been.

    as far as saying the phone palm developed may have already been outdated.... Just more negative speculation from unity....
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    it's all speculation... But I think you are spot on.
    they did not anticipate verizons huge backing of droid.... And it crushed palm. Palm was punished for launching pre exclusive on sprint... Sending a message to the industry... And sending pre inventory through the roof...while sending the stock from $18... tdown to as low as $3... In 1 qtr. Palm was in no position to launch any phone.... No matter how badass it may have been.

    as far as saying the phone palm developed may have already been outdated.... Just more negative speculation from unity....
    Welllll, let's not rewrite history. Verizon backing Droid did not crush Palm. Palm releasing underwhelming handsets with an incomplete OS that didn't satisfy ANY carrier ANYwhere crushed Palm. Their sales dropped across ALL carriers every single quarter WebOS was on the market.

    If any message was sent "to the industry", then Palm sent it. And badass hardware does nothing to correct the stagnant app development and OS development that has plagued this baby for months now.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Welllll, let's not rewrite history. Verizon backing Droid did not crush Palm. Palm releasing underwhelming handsets with an incomplete OS that didn't satisfy ANY carrier ANYwhere crushed Palm. Their sales dropped across ALL carriers every single quarter WebOS was on the market.

    If any message was sent "to the industry", then Palm sent it. And badass hardware does nothing to correct the stagnant app development and OS development that has plagued this baby for months now.
    fair enough...went to far with that one.
    verizon did not want palm to succeed...
    between the verizon /google ad blitz... Palm didn't stand a chance...imo. They could have had 40k apps ... Not much of a diff.

    it's in the past. It changed webOS path for the better... So I guess a big thank you is in order;-)
    thanks verizon/ Google!
    by the time pre made it to ATT... Game was over.

    I'm hoping for an omap 4 processor and at least 1Gb ddr2 mem on new webOS phone.... Sick.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    fair enough...went to far with that one.
    verizon did not want palm to succeed...
    between the verizon /google ad blitz... Palm didn't stand a chance...imo. They could have had 40k apps ... Not much of a diff.

    it's in the past. It changed webOS path for the better... So I guess a big thank you is in order;-)
    thanks verizon/ Google!
    by the time pre made it to ATT... Game was over.

    I'm hoping for an omap 4 processor and at least 1Gb ddr2 mem on new webOS phone.... Sick.
    next palm phone will still be the previously mythical c40 released this fall/winter alongside webos 2.0 according to todays post at webosroundup website

    http://www.webosroundup.com/2010/08/...-includes-c40/
    Last edited by kumquatsrus; 08/05/2010 at 03:05 PM.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy
    I agree. That means that any new hardware for the Summer wasn't just delayed by the acquisition as many people here assumed - it was cancelled. Furthermore, with all of the competition coming later this year there is probably a complete reassessment of what their target market is.
    Which makes you wonder what HP (and the former Palm) have been doing since they struck their agreement last April. It's almost as if final takeover day came and went and they were standing still wondering what to do next. It would seem to me that 3-4 months was simply wasted when they could have cemented their new arrangement with a clear, innovative, and exciting future for their new WebOS acquisition (like they did with their EDS acquisition - like most companies do out-of-the-gate in a new acquisition), not the seemingly rudderless, platitude-filled approach they've taken so far. One might think they don't have a real plan yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy
    Here's a provocative question for you - with all of this in mind, is there any real reason for HP Palm to release a new smartphone before a tablet?
    Only if they want to:
    1. Appear to still be players in the smartphone marketplace.
    2. Not have to start completely from scratch with markets, buzz, and providers.
    3. Do what they (supposedly) do best before plowing completely new, untested ground.

    If a tablet turns out to be the first new HP WeOS-based product, then you know Palm has little say in their new home.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by kumquatsrus View Post
    next palm phone will still be the previously mythical c40 released this fall/winter alongside webos 2.0 according to todays post at webosroundup website
    Thank you good sir.

    I will take an order of Kumquats... 300 lbs please.

    Are you willing to share your favorite recipe using kumquats? ...
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Which makes you wonder what HP (and the former Palm) have been doing since they struck their agreement last April. It's almost as if final takeover day came and went and they were standing still wondering what to do next. It would seem to me that 3-4 months was simply wasted when they could have cemented their new arrangement with a clear, innovative, and exciting future for their new WebOS acquisition (like they did with their EDS acquisition - like most companies do out-of-the-gate in a new acquisition), not the seemingly rudderless, platitude-filled approach they've taken so far. One might think they don't have a real plan yet.

    Only if they want to:
    1. Appear to still be players in the smartphone marketplace.
    2. Not have to start completely from scratch with markets, buzz, and providers.
    3. Do what they (supposedly) do best before plowing completely new, untested ground.

    If a tablet turns out to be the first new HP WeOS-based product, then you know Palm has little say in their new home.


    agree with all you wrote --



    If I'm HP, I make a case to the board why I want to drop a billion and change on the Palm acquisition -- and I get my team to create a strategic blue print for how I'm going to use Palm/webOS , and what I'm going to do from day one.

    I will describe what my plan will cost, what the probability of a profitable return on my investment will be, and what the risks of failure are.

    I will articulate what problems I might anticipate if I don't make the deal. I will already have seen Palm's books with microscopic detail, and know intimately what products they have and their state of development, in their pipeline.

    I would have had my software team talking in detail with their software teams -- I will want to know what synergies there are and could be among my existing and prospective products.

    My IP legal and engineering team would have gone over their IP library with their Palm counterparts -- and I would have gotten an accurate if only ballpark evaluation of its potential value.

    I would have challenged my team -- I would have demanded that they convince me to make the deal -- while I argued to them that the deal made no sense.

    I would have wanted a spreadsheet showing how many of their people are unneeded overlap, how many can be fired during the first month, by the sixth month.

    I would want to see a commitment from the 10-20 key Palm people I care about, to stay for 12-18 months -- and a report on what it will cost individually to be assured of that retention.

    I would want to know what the state of Palm's relationship is (or isn't) with the carriers, why its phones failed, what the state of its customer loyalty (if any) is.

    I would have been briefed by my CFO, my bankers -- I would want to know what doing this deal will have on my credit rating, my stock price.

    Lastly I would want a comprehensive guesstimate as to the likely 5 year return on investment this deal potentially could represent.

    But almost certainly I did not justify the deal based on the phone business.

    But that's BARYE -- maybe that's not Mark Hurd -- clearly it was not Carly Fiorina...
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/05/2010 at 05:14 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    fair enough...went to far with that one.
    verizon did not want palm to succeed...
    between the verizon /google ad blitz... Palm didn't stand a chance...imo. They could have had 40k apps ... Not much of a diff.
    They could have had 40k apps with an incomplete SDK still missing vital APIs FOURTEEN months after launch? Brighthouse Labs is only capable of so much, my friend.
  14. #114  
    All I know is Palm has over 2 million (probably close to 3 million) webOS phones out there in the wild. That's not a bad place for HP to start.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  15.    #115  
    What if you were the CEO of HP and weren't that sure about the smartphone roadmap but were still very interested in webOS and the patents? Perhaps you would say to investors: "We didn't buy Palm to be in the smartphone business. And I tell people that, but it doesn't seem to resonate well. We bought it for the IP. "

    I'm not sure how much detail Palm would give about its future product line before closing the deal because presumeably, Apple, HTC, Dell, and the other bidders would get the same look.
    Last edited by UntidyGuy; 08/04/2010 at 09:20 PM.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    They could have had 40k apps with an incomplete SDK still missing vital APIs FOURTEEN months after launch? Brighthouse Labs is only capable of so much, my friend.
    well... now lets not get overly critical...
    I love how you call me out on rewriting history... then begin to rip into webOS faults.... and state failures with webOS sdk... as if the avg consumer walking into a verizon store would know what your talking about.

    apps are apps to the marketing machine called appl /google.

    200Kapps in apple catalog.. what % of them are garbage?

    I see wht your saying... they fell short. But it does not take away from the brillance of webOS UI... and how it has managed to gain the respect of many... with so much lacking.
    How many employees at palm? how many engineers? how many devs?
    answer.. not enough to bring a mature webOS to market... june 2009.
    With their resources.. and your harsh criticism.... should they have waited until Jan. 2010 to launch the Pre plus on verizon( skip sprint launch)? better hardware... still lacking sdk and unpolished OS. should they have not released a webOS phone at all? instead.. waiting for june 2010 to launch the first webOS phone? introducing webOS against iphone 4, a refined android os running on evo, droidx, galaxy s???

    Monday morning QBing.... harsh criticism of faults, while overlooking major +++ and brilliance... is extremely lame and easy to do.

    For as much as you hate cheerleading and a positive outlook in regards to palm and webOS... i despise someone ripping into the failures of a company who's obvious desire was to excel in the marketplace .. for their own existence and their responsibilities to their shareholders.

    Mikah, when you design a mobile OS from scratch... design your own award winning hardware with innovative touchstone... etc.. and pull it off against giants like Google and apple. Stop back in and let us know how you masterfully pulled it off. Until then... have some respect for the work that was accomplished...and the effort the small few at palm put forth to allow us to have this debate today.

    thats the past... the next three months will reveal the future. Then we can talk about webOS and its sdk, pdk... app catalog.... and webOS 2.0 possibly running on an omap4 processor.

    lets take this down a notch. Its ALL speculation. Taking shots at webOS short falls prior to HP aquisition... does not discredit webOS future potential at all... imo.
    besides feeling good for calling Palm out... nothing else good comes from it at this point....imo.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    All I know is Palm has over 2 million (probably close to 3 million) webOS phones out there in the wild. That's not a bad place for HP to start.
    If by "the wild", you are counting store shelves and warehouses, then sure.

    But during their last ever quarterly results, their cumulative sellthrough for all Palm products (including non WebOS devices) since the launch of the Pre totaled to 1.5 million or so. Assuming 1.4 million were WebOS devices, they were a good ways off from 2 million, much less "over" and "close to 3 million.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    well... now lets not get overly critical...
    I love how you call me out on rewriting history... then begin to rip into webOS faults.... and state failures with webOS sdk... as if the avg consumer walking into a verizon store would know what your talking about.
    What does the one have to do with the other? You incorrectly attributed Palm's downfall to Verizon. I correctly pointed out that 14 months later, they still have not finished the SDK and provided access to all of the device's functionality. That would make building a comparable app catalog to Google and Apple - both of whom have fairly robust and complete SDKs - rather difficult, yes?

    apps are apps to the marketing machine called appl /google.

    200Kapps in apple catalog.. what % of them are garbage?
    That question is irrelevant. There is no app catalog - including the WebOS one - that has an inordinately high ratio of "non-garbage" apps to "garbage" apps. You could probably make the same argument against Windows software. Who cares? You need volume to create the critical mass that attracts the great developers.

    I see wht your saying... they fell short. But it does not take away from the brillance of webOS UI... and how it has managed to gain the respect of many... with so much lacking.
    No, I am saying they continue to fall short because it is 14 months and counting of inadequate software development resources. The baddest hardware in the world is pointless is you don't have apps and an OS to take advantage of it. The greatness of the UI has nothing to do with it. They created that almost two years ago.

    How many employees at palm? how many engineers? how many devs?
    answer.. not enough to bring a mature webOS to market... june 2009.
    With their resources.. and your harsh criticism.... should they have waited until Jan. 2010 to launch the Pre plus on verizon( skip sprint launch)? better hardware... still lacking sdk and unpolished OS. should they have not released a webOS phone at all? instead.. waiting for june 2010 to launch the first webOS phone? introducing webOS against iphone 4, a refined android os running on evo, droidx, galaxy s???
    Again, no one is saying "don't launch the phone". but if you're going to finish the SDK after the phone launch, then you actually need to....well, you know....finish the SDK.

    Monday morning QBing.... harsh criticism of faults, while overlooking major +++ and brilliance... is extremely lame and easy to do.
    Monday morning? More like end of the next season. How many cookies, gold stars, and pats on the back can we give them for creating WebOS? That sure was great. I say that without sarcasm. Now then...about what you've been doing in the years since......

    For as much as you hate cheerleading and a positive outlook in regards to palm and webOS... i despise someone ripping into the failures of a company who's obvious desire was to excel in the marketplace .. for their own existence and their responsibilities to their shareholders.
    I don't "hate" cheerleading or anything else in regards to Palm. People really should get a grip on using that word inappropriately. If you "despise" or "hate" anything related to arguing over an inessential electronic object and the people who make them, you seriously lack priorities and perspective in your life.

    Mikah, when you design a mobile OS from scratch... design your own award winning hardware with innovative touchstone... etc.. and pull it off against giants like Google and apple. Stop back in and let us know how you masterfully pulled it off. Until then... have some respect for the work that was accomplished...and the effort the small few at palm put forth to allow us to have this debate today.
    And we're finally at the lamest rejoinder possible! Yay. The only movie critics should be directors. The only food critics should be seasoned chefs. And since neither of us have created an OS, you shouldn't be anymore allowed to praise it than I am to criticize it.

    thats the past... the next three months will reveal the future. Then we can talk about webOS and its sdk, pdk... app catalog.... and webOS 2.0 possibly running on an omap4 processor.
    That's what you still fail to get. This is the present. Whatever has transpired, Palm/Hewlett Packard has still - as of this very second - not finished the OS or the SDK. You can say the next three months or the next three weeks or the next three years. All are equally plausible because no one has revealed any concrete development plans for WebOS going forward. Only high-level strategies.

    Its ALL speculation.
    No. All of what you are saying is speculation. I am observing what objectively is now and what has been. Big difference.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    What does the one have to do with the other? You incorrectly attributed Palm's downfall to Verizon. I correctly pointed out that 14 months later, they still have not finished the SDK and provided access to all of the device's functionality. That would make building a comparable app catalog to Google and Apple - both of whom have fairly robust and complete SDKs - rather difficult, yes?



    That question is irrelevant. There is no app catalog - including the WebOS one - that has an inordinately high ratio of "non-garbage" apps to "garbage" apps. You could probably make the same argument against Windows software. Who cares? You need volume to create the critical mass that attracts the great developers.



    No, I am saying they continue to fall short because it is 14 months and counting of inadequate software development resources. The baddest hardware in the world is pointless is you don't have apps and an OS to take advantage of it. The greatness of the UI has nothing to do with it. They created that almost two years ago.



    Again, no one is saying "don't launch the phone". but if you're going to finish the SDK after the phone launch, then you actually need to....well, you know....finish the SDK.



    Monday morning? More like end of the next season. How many cookies, gold stars, and pats on the back can we give them for creating WebOS? That sure was great. I say that without sarcasm. Now then...about what you've been doing in the years since......



    I don't "hate" cheerleading or anything else in regards to Palm. People really should get a grip on using that word inappropriately. If you "despise" or "hate" anything related to arguing over an inessential electronic object and the people who make them, you seriously lack priorities and perspective in your life.



    And we're finally at the lamest rejoinder possible! Yay. The only movie critics should be directors. The only food critics should be seasoned chefs. And since neither of us have created an OS, you shouldn't be anymore allowed to praise it than I am to criticize it.



    That's what you still fail to get. This is the present. Whatever has transpired, Palm/Hewlett Packard has still - as of this very second - not finished the OS or the SDK. You can say the next three months or the next three weeks or the next three years. All are equally plausible because no one has revealed any concrete development plans for WebOS going forward. Only high-level strategies.



    No. All of what you are saying is speculation. I am observing what objectively is now and what has been. Big difference.

    and taking the time to copy and paste all of those quotes.... just to argue my opinions... and claiming that it is only i that is speculating... is delusional... me responding... falling into this p.i.s.s.i.n.g. contest and equally delusional.
    This is exactly the waste of time i want to avoid on this site. I will only cut and paste one example of you speculating. I am choosing an example that i actually agree with... even though it is still speculation.

    [quote]Palm's "new hardware plan" was probably upended in the spring when they first realized how bad sell though was ahead of the publicly announced results. That's also what triggered them to put themselves up for sale and solicit buyers. There was no way they were going to be able to clear that backlog before they ran out of money and/or carrier good faith. [\quote]
    I may have missed it...did palm announce this as fact? also, is that fact that you observed, or is that speculation? this ..is me being a ****. Why, because you are being a ****. This is what i need less of.

    you made some good points ... and i made some bad points... and vice versa.
    [And we're finally at the lamest rejoinder possible! Yay. The only movie critics should be directors. The only food critics should be seasoned chefs. And since neither of us have created an OS, you shouldn't be anymore allowed to praise it than I am to criticize it. [quote]

    and we ARE finally at the lamest part of what you do....imo.
    I will arque that there are many on the web who THINK they can be directors, chefs, CEO's of companies... but are delusional. The web gives them anonymity, which in turn... emboldens them into harsh critics. They are able to post harsh criticism of movies that people spend hours and $$$ creating... and bash it... with little or no experience. very lame.

    They harshly criticize Musicians, celebraties, etc.... when they probably have done nothing more than finish high school... and lived pay check to pay check for years... at best.

    I should be less positive about Palms past and their future... you should be less negative\ critical..imo.

    at the end of the day... i choose to overlook shortcomings and praise positives. especially when i see potential and future growth in a person or a product.
    i will leave it at that. I will thank you for your contributions to my opinions and comments.
    I dont want to derail this thread any further... so i will refrain from discrediting you any further... and defending myself....
    Looking forward to HP palms new release of webOS products...hopefully by 3rd qtr 2010
  20. #120  
    To sum up where this thread has gone...

    There is so much speculation, hope and optimism (in this thread) about what HP is going to do with webOS, that we have already created an entire (future) ecosystem (in our minds) AND are comparing how it would compete against current (existing) technology ecosystems!

    All of this from an original topic of mobile OS market shares... and where webOS falls in comparison.
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