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  1. #121  
    By your "logic", no one should clamor for new hardware since they just dropped a brand new WebOS handset on AT&T (Pixi Plus - June 6). It's the exact same age as the Evo and just slightly newer than iPhone 4.

    I'd love to see a shootout of them all running stock. Wonder why HP and Palm didn't advertise this brand new handset more. You know...now with all new carrier branding on the front. It's a mystery.

    Oh well, the Evo went on sale in June, not May. I would suggest you fact check more, but you are fact averse. Last word goes to you....this thread just sucks now.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    By your "logic", no one should clamor for new hardware since they just dropped a brand new WebOS handset on AT&T (Pixi Plus - June 6). It's the exact same age as the Evo and just slightly newer than iPhone 4.

    I'd love to see a shootout of them all running stock. Wonder why HP and Palm didn't advertise this brand new handset more. You know...now with all new carrier branding on the front. It's a mystery.

    Oh well, the Evo went on sale in June, not May. I would suggest you fact check more, but you are fact averse. Last word goes to you....this thread just sucks now.
    Did you update uberkernal and govnah? just released updates this week.
    Very minimal lag @800mhz. Cant wait for next webOS update... even better.

    This thread has sucked for days...
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    By your "logic", no one should clamor for new hardware since they just dropped a brand new WebOS handset on AT&T (Pixi Plus - June 6). It's the exact same age as the Evo and just slightly newer than iPhone 4..
    What??? lol... um.. ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'd love to see a shootout of them all running stock. Wonder why HP and Palm didn't advertise this brand new handset more. You know...now with all new carrier branding on the front. It's a mystery.

    Oh well, the Evo went on sale in June, not May. I would suggest you fact check more, but you are fact averse. Last word goes to you....this thread just sucks now.
    Interesting observation.

    About the only thing I can tell you is, that when something goes bad, perhaps its time to fix it.

    I believe you are way better than your posts here on this thread....

    Stay on topic, be polite and respectful, EVEN in the face of those who you feel may not be doing the same for you, and have an open mind, and, trust me, we all will learn something more each time we post.

    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  4.    #124  
    Ok so I really hesitated writing this post considering the reaction I got from my OP and how this thread spiraled completely out of control. But, I think this might be helpful to some people and hopefully provides some insight and clarification to the OP.

    So I was at the mall yet again over the weekend and passed a verizon kiosk that had the Droid X on display. I remembered that Mikah mentioned that he felt a more fair comparison of a SR71 OC Palm Pre would be to something like Droid X. So I pretty much did the same little unscientific testing I did with the EVO. Just simply trying to see how much quicker the Droid X opened similar apps as my OC'd Pre. I tested the same apps that I did in the EVO test. My experience was that the Droid X would open and be ready with running the app about 0.5 second before my Palm Pre. The only times the Pre bested the Droid X was with camera/camcorder loading (0.5-1 second faster). The Droid X also had preloaded Need For Speed (not the same version as on the Pre). The Pre loaded this just a hair faster (this could be explained by when my finger touched each app).

    It should be noted that Droid X cpu is TI OMAP 3630 at stock 1GHz, 512 mb of memory and has stock Android 2.1 but will be upgraded to 2.2 probably in August. There are no current OC kernels available for this phone that I am aware of. My Palm Pre is running OC kernel SR71-84 at 1.2 Ghz on the stock 500 mHz TI OMAP 3340 CPU, 256 mb of memory, and webOS 1.4.1.1 but will be upgraded to 1.5 sometime in the Fall. Both OS upgrades are expected to bring speed and performance boosts. Android 2.2 has already been shown to be 5x faster than 2.1 in the LinPack test.

    So to be clear this is not a apples to apples comparison. First and foremost my phone was running at 1.2 GHz and the Droid X is running at 1 GHz. Secondly, I am running an OC kernel that is in alpha testing and can at anytime brick my phone and is almost definitely reducing the life expectancy of my phone. The Droid X was running stock and well within manufactures specifications. Also, it should be made clear to everyone this was a personal experience and I have no way of telling if others would agree with or be able to replicate my experience.

    Based purely on my experience in both testing my Pre against the EVO and Droid X, I would speculate that with some optimization (maybe not as much as I initially thought) webOS could be as responsive if not more so than some of the best Android phones on the market, IMO.

    I would love to hear from others who have tested their phones against other current phones?
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    Ok so I really hesitated writing this post considering the reaction I got from my OP and how this thread spiraled completely out of control. But, I think this might be helpful to some people and hopefully provides some insight and clarification to the OP.

    So I was at the mall yet again over the weekend and passed a verizon kiosk that had the Droid X on display.....
    Great (an pretty fair) post. The two gotcha's for me are:

    1. The feature set of the EVO/X is much larger than on the Pre (even with homebrew). Although hombrew obviously brings it MUCH closer.

    2. I'm on Sprint and unfortunately the Pre does not fair quite as well as the Pre Plus.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    Ok so I really hesitated writing this post considering the reaction I got from my OP and how this thread spiraled completely out of control. But, I think this might be helpful to some people and hopefully provides some insight and clarification to the OP.

    So I was at the mall yet again over the weekend and passed a verizon kiosk that had the Droid X on display. I remembered that Mikah mentioned that he felt a more fair comparison of a SR71 OC Palm Pre would be to something like Droid X. So I pretty much did the same little unscientific testing I did with the EVO. Just simply trying to see how much quicker the Droid X opened similar apps as my OC'd Pre. I tested the same apps that I did in the EVO test. My experience was that the Droid X would open and be ready with running the app about 0.5 second before my Palm Pre. The only times the Pre bested the Droid X was with camera/camcorder loading (0.5-1 second faster). The Droid X also had preloaded Need For Speed (not the same version as on the Pre). The Pre loaded this just a hair faster (this could be explained by when my finger touched each app).

    It should be noted that Droid X cpu is TI OMAP 3630 at stock 1GHz, 512 mb of memory and has stock Android 2.1 but will be upgraded to 2.2 probably in August. There are no current OC kernels available for this phone that I am aware of. My Palm Pre is running OC kernel SR71-84 at 1.2 Ghz on the stock 500 mHz TI OMAP 3340 CPU, 256 mb of memory, and webOS 1.4.1.1 but will be upgraded to 1.5 sometime in the Fall. Both OS upgrades are expected to bring speed and performance boosts. Android 2.2 has already been shown to be 5x faster than 2.1 in the LinPack test.

    So to be clear this is not a apples to apples comparison. First and foremost my phone was running at 1.2 GHz and the Droid X is running at 1 GHz. Secondly, I am running an OC kernel that is in alpha testing and can at anytime brick my phone and is almost definitely reducing the life expectancy of my phone. The Droid X was running stock and well within manufactures specifications. Also, it should be made clear to everyone this was a personal experience and I have no way of telling if others would agree with or be able to replicate my experience.

    Based purely on my experience in both testing my Pre against the EVO and Droid X, I would speculate that with some optimization (maybe not as much as I initially thought) webOS could be as responsive if not more so than some of the best Android phones on the market, IMO.

    I would love to hear from others who have tested their phones against other current phones?
    Thanks for the comparison. Your context and metrics seemed well-considered to me. Seriously.
  7.    #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Great (an pretty fair) post. The two gotcha's for me are:

    1. The feature set of the EVO/X is much larger than on the Pre (even with homebrew). Although hombrew obviously brings it MUCH closer.

    2. I'm on Sprint and unfortunately the Pre does not fair quite as well as the Pre Plus.
    I am also on the Sprint Pre.

    With regard to feature set. I think this precisely why optimization is necessary. As more hardware and software options are added the harder the CPU will have to work to keep up. If it was merely a matter of getting what is currently offered responsive, Palm would only need to place a huge CPU (battery usage considerations not with standing) in order to get rid of any lag. Also, consider that our Sprint Pres have half the amount of memory of the EVO/X. This would have an effect on the responsiveness of the OS as can be attested to by Pre Plus vs Pre. Finally, consider that while the GPU is enabled in the Palm Pre and the EVO/X, the UI of the Palm Pre does not utilize the GPU for graphics rendering but from what I understand the EVO/X do utilize the GPU in there UI graphics rendering. These issues are precisely why when considering these types of comparisons one has to keep in mind that this is far from an apples to apples comparison.

    Again, I would really like to hear if anyone else got a chance to test EVO/X or another smartphone recently released against their OC'd Palm Pre /Plus.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    I am also on the Sprint Pre.

    With regard to feature set. I think this precisely why optimization is necessary. As more hardware and software options are added the harder the CPU will have to work to keep up. If it was merely a matter of getting what is currently offered responsive, Palm would only need to place a huge CPU (battery usage considerations not with standing) in order to get rid of any lag. Also, consider that our Sprint Pres have half the amount of memory of the EVO/X. This would have an effect on the responsiveness of the OS as can be attested to by Pre Plus vs Pre. Finally, consider that while the GPU is enabled in the Palm Pre and the EVO/X, the UI of the Palm Pre does not utilize the GPU for graphics rendering but from what I understand the EVO/X do utilize the GPU in there UI graphics rendering. These issues are precisely why when considering these types of comparisons one has to keep in mind that this is far from an apples to apples comparison.

    Again, I would really like to hear if anyone else got a chance to test EVO/X or another smartphone recently released against their OC'd Palm Pre /Plus.
    I've tested my EVO (stock) against my Pre (no +) with it OC'd to 800mhz. The Pre is definitely more responsive (compared to stock) at 800mhz but I feel the real barrier is still the 256MB of RAM. I still frequently ran into memory issues (even with the too many cards patch applied for the browser). At 800mhz the Pre was slightly slower than the EVO in just about every task. Some were noticeably slower (opening emails, Pandora, G Maps). Some of that certainly has to do with optimizing the OS/Application.

    They really need to at least put the Pre+ on Sprint. It blows my mind that they did not at least do this in June (1Y mark) to help keep up with competitors.
  9.    #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    I've tested my EVO (stock) against my Pre (no +) with it OC'd to 800mhz. The Pre is definitely more responsive (compared to stock) at 800mhz but I feel the real barrier is still the 256MB of RAM. I still frequently ran into memory issues (even with the too many cards patch applied for the browser). At 800mhz the Pre was slightly slower than the EVO in just about every task. Some were noticeably slower (opening emails, Pandora, G Maps). Some of that certainly has to do with optimizing the OS/Application.

    They really need to at least put the Pre+ on Sprint. It blows my mind that they did not at least do this in June (1Y mark) to help keep up with competitors.
    GMaps and GMail are really much quicker on Android handsets. Although if you test Mail to Mail and if you test BFGMaps to GMaps both are more comparable response wise. I would argue that GMaps on Android is more feature rich than either GMaps or BFGMaps on webOS so its still not really a fair assessment. I remember when I first got my phone back last July my friends where so impressed at how fast GMaps loaded and responded in comparison to even the iPhone 3GS. Somewhere along the line the app ran into some problems. Not sure if it was an OS update or some modification google did to the api that caused the problems.

    Running at 1.2GHz really is a major speed improvement. You really see how responsive the OS becomes at this speed. Unfortunately, it appears that since it so unstable it may never get incorporated into UberKernel for public use. I just hope that UnixPsycho will continue updating this kernel with each OS update. I didn't see that much of a difference between 800 Mhz and 1GHz. I don't get any of the TMC error issues with 1.2Ghz either but I run JStop in the background so that could be one reason.
    Last edited by zulfaqar621; 07/27/2010 at 01:41 PM.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    GMaps and GMail are really much quicker on Android handsets. Although if you test Mail to Mail and if you test BFGMaps to GMaps both it is more comparable response wise. I would argue that GMaps on Android is more feature rich than either GMaps or BFGMaps on webOS so its still not really a fair assessment.

    Running at 1.2GHz really is a major speed improvement. You really see how responsive the OS becomes at this speed. Unfortunately, it appears that since it so unstable it may never get incorporated into UberKernel for public use. I just hope that UnixPsycho will continue updating this kernel with each OS update. I didn't see that much of a difference between 800 Mhz and 1GHz. I don't get any of the TMC error issues with 1.2Ghz either but I run JStop in the background so that could be one reason.
    Yeah, google apps are to be expected to have more features and run better on Android.

    I would have concerns of the longevity of the CPU running at 1-1.2Ghz. That's 100% overclock. Add to that the fact that Palm intentionally underclocked this CPU due to concerns about it's life cycle at it's designed clock. I've overclocked CPU's for years on the desktop and am pretty familiar with it and how it impacts the CPU life span. Although I'm not sure that matters much on a handset that probably has a very short shelf life (before being replaced) at this point.
  11.    #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Yeah, google apps are to be expected to have more features and run better on Android.

    I would have concerns of the longevity of the CPU running at 1-1.2Ghz. That's 100% overclock. Add to that the fact that Palm intentionally underclocked this CPU due to concerns about it's life cycle at it's designed clock. I've overclocked CPU's for years on the desktop and am pretty familiar with it and how it impacts the CPU life span. Although I'm not sure that matters much on a handset that probably has a very short shelf life (before being replaced) at this point.
    Shelf life for me is not that important. I have never gone more than 2 years without upgrading my phone to the newest thing. If Palm comes out with a new device before then (I would hate to think they wouldn't) I will probably upgrade to that. Even if they don't, as long as this thing is still kicking this time next year I am good.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    My point is that Palm should be doing this with their updates because the only real bottleneck is WebOS, not the RAM or the processor. The iPhone 3GS with 256MB of RAM and an identical processor to the Sprint Pre can multitask with iOS4 and run rings around the Pre in UI smoothness and responsiveness. No "Too Many Programs" errors. Way less browser checkerboarding. Every tap registers. Frames aren't dropping. The current Android phones are also a cut above WebOS in speed and responsiveness.

    Doubling the Preclock speed does little to change this. I run a heavily overclocked Pre myself. It's still laggy and unoptimized. If anything, I see the lag more clearly now because the rest of the time it's faster.
    I have access to my roommates iphone 3GS regularly and I also own an ipad. I had an iphone 3G before I moved to a Palm PRE. IMHO people seem to forget that iOS does NOTHING in the background, PUSH notifications are pushed to the device. On my ipad the mail app won't even download mail until I run it even though it is supposedly always running in the background (once I run it).

    My PRE on the other hand has one additional email (exchange) on top of the 5 I also have on my ipad. It is also logged into my google talk and yahoo messenger accounts. I also have apps that routinely check for data dealert, wallpaper changer, flicker picture app to name a few.

    Even a stock Palm PRE is doing more than a stock iphone 3G or 3GS. Performance comes at a cost this is just plain physics.


    Please run fringe in the background at ALL times and then tell me about smoothness of UI.

    Having said that I do believe that webOS can definitely be optimized further. I am eagerly waiting for webOS 2.0 with GPU acceleration. GPU acceleration should improve the responsiveness of the device multifold (I have been waiting for this for a while btw )

    I would also like Palm to increase the priority of the UI so that it feels more responsive.
    Last edited by sapient2k7; 07/27/2010 at 01:54 PM. Reason: spelling ..
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Thanks for the comparison. Your context and metrics seemed well-considered to me. Seriously.
    Just FYI, TI 3630 has double L1 cache on the processor so even at the same speed Ti3630 will beat a Ti3430.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    Shelf life for me is not that important. I have never gone more than 2 years without upgrading my phone to the newest thing. If Palm comes out with a new device before then (I would hate to think they wouldn't) I will probably upgrade to that. Even if they don't, as long as this thing is still kicking this time next year I am good.
    I will through out that I did have to replace one of my wife's Pre's (she is on #8 I think...) as (what I believe) was a direct result of OC'ing. It may have just been a bad unit though... but I think it was likely one of the "lower quality CPU's that reacted very poorly to OC'ing.

    It was working fine (and I think it was the Pre that lasted her the longest). She had it for a few months before I OC'd it. I OC'd for her (because she was complaining about the lag and asked why mine didn't do that) to 800Mhz. After about 4 weeks she started having all sorts of issues (random reboots, lockups, touch screen not responding, etc.). She even received a couple of overtemp warnings. Eventually the touch screen stopped responding completely. It's the only phone we ever saw a temp warning on.
  15. #135  
    Thanks for the info, Sapient, but I've compared similar apps running on my overclocked Pre vs. a friend with a 3GS with the exact same configuration I described, and it was still way more responsive and smoother all around.

    ...While running a couple of apps in the background, too. And iOS most certainly has multiple background processes/services running.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    By your "logic", no one should clamor for new hardware since they just dropped a brand new WebOS handset on AT&T (Pixi Plus - June 6). It's the exact same age as the Evo and just slightly newer than iPhone 4.

    I'd love to see a shootout of them all running stock. Wonder why HP and Palm didn't advertise this brand new handset more. You know...now with all new carrier branding on the front. It's a mystery.

    Oh well, the Evo went on sale in June, not May. I would suggest you fact check more, but you are fact averse. Last word goes to you....this thread just sucks now.
    Pardon me but what's "new" about the ATT PrPrPr&#$275$;? $from$ $a$ $performance$ $perspective$? $Some$ $didn$'$t$ $even$ $consider$ $the$ $Pr$&#$275$; $plus$ $to$ $be$ $new$, $as$ $it$ $was$ $said$ $by$ $some$ $to$ $be$ $slight$ $mods$ $to$ $the$ $same$ $original$ $design$. $It$ $DID$ $make$ $a$ $difference$ $tho$. $If$ $the$ $touchstone$ $is$ $the$ $only$ $significant$ $change$ $to$ $the$ $GSM$/$ATT$ $Pr$&#$275$;, $I$'$d$ $say$ $it$'$s$ $still$ $remixing$ $the$ $same$ $thing$ $and$ $calling$ $it$ $new$. $True$, $apple$ $and$ $others$ $are$ $good$ $at$ $this$, $but$ $it$'$s$ $still$ $on$ $par$ $back$ $with$ $the$ $iPhone$ $3GS$, $not$ $the$ $4$, $right$? $Maybe$ $we$ $should$ $just$ $get$ $it$ $overwith$ $and$ $go$ $ahead$ $and$ $call$ $it$ $the$ &$quot$;$classic$&$quot$; $Pr$&#$275$; $so$ $people$ $will$ $stop$ $picking$ $on$ $us$, $hehe$. $Exciting$ $thread$, $ya$'$ll$!
  17. #137  
    I think he was pointing out the (flaw in) logic behind stating something is "new hardware" just because a new phone went on sale at a certain date (regardless of if the hardware itself has actually been used previously in another phone).
  18. erod550's Avatar
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    #138  
    Hmm.. one of my biggest complaints about my Pre was how ridiculously slow the camera opened, causing me to miss photo opportunities more than not. The camera on my Evo loads much faster than the Pre ever did, plus it has the hardware specs to be able to leave a lot of commonly used apps open all the time and not bog down the phone, then they open even faster.

    I loved my Pre for the year I had it, and think WebOS is great. If they made a WebOS device with a 4.3" screen, 1ghz processor and 512mb of RAM, I'd have been all over it, but the Pre's hardware just wasn't fast enough to keep up with the multitasking, and that was with only leaving the Messaging and Email apps open all the time. I have about 8-10 apps open all the time on my Evo and it never gets bogged down.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by erod550 View Post
    Hmm.. one of my biggest complaints about my Pre was how ridiculously slow the camera opened, causing me to miss photo opportunities more than not. The camera on my Evo loads much faster than the Pre ever did, plus it has the hardware specs to be able to leave a lot of commonly used apps open all the time and not bog down the phone, then they open even faster.

    I loved my Pre for the year I had it, and think WebOS is great. If they made a WebOS device with a 4.3" screen, 1ghz processor and 512mb of RAM, I'd have been all over it, but the Pre's hardware just wasn't fast enough to keep up with the multitasking, and that was with only leaving the Messaging and Email apps open all the time. I have about 8-10 apps open all the time on my Evo and it never gets bogged down.
    ohh yeah!
    well... your evo is just one big... washed out color ...... clunky monkey of an os... hideous machine.

    Take that and stuff it.
    thats right... UGLY!

    My pre on the latest f105 kernal kicks your evo's a.s.s.
    full of color and wholesome elegance... vibrant and full of awesomeness.
    its better than your stupid evo... so shut it or i am going to go tell my big brother that you are a jerk and keep picking on me... and he will beat you up.
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