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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by LCGuy View Post
    Mikah;

    Oy.

    The kernals being developed by WebOSinternals is giving much needed life to this hardware, which is over a year old in the market, and almost 1.5 years old in theory, not to mention probaly 2+ years old in development.

    I dont see what the big deal here, is. These kernals kick serious A - that's the point of the OP - they provide enough power and imrpovements to the hardware so that this older hardware can still compete and, in many cases, surpass current smartphone offerings.

    Thats a GREAT thing.
    I've explicitly given praise to the developers of these overclocks. I've said I USE an overclocked Pre. I haven't purchased an Evo. So obviously I ALSO appreciate their work and endorse it through action as well as word.

    But I don't consider an aftermarket-modded import with a guaranteed to burnout engine from years ago being able to "outrun" or keep pace with a stock model as something to celebrate. That's just my take. It works for me in speeding up a laggy OS that should be getting the speed from better coding. But I'm not going to act as if my device keeps pace with handsets that could smoke it in several areas stock, all areas with a custom ROM or the latest OS and do so at a speed that won't shorten the life like my Pre.

    That's my opinion. Just as valid.
  2. #82  
    some people like to state the obvious.....
    if users take pride in the impressive efforts of the hombrew devs... And the fact that their 1yr old pre is oc'd @ 1.2 Ghz... Others consistently have to jump in and point out the many ways it is still not adequate... Even if it is 1 yr old.
    for every positive.... They can think of 3 negatives. Is that a quality I choose to exhibit... No. Is there anythinh wrong with it ... No. Is it going to cause others to be defensive.. Yes. When that happens.. Should it be expected.. Yes.
    They feel the need to be the voice of truth...
    the bottom line is the 1 yr old pre still has it's advantages over android or ios phones. The fact it can be oc'ed upto 1.2Ghz is very impressive. Many sites on the web agree to that.
    no matter what... some people pride themselves on putting others down... Raining on their parade.
    doing that on precentral is going to ruffle feathers. That's why the continue to post here.
    spending hours of your time discrediting the smaller community, while supporting the larger ones... Speaks for itself. Spending hours defending a product that has been close to being crushed...a nd disappearing...when you love it and want to see it grow and thrive... Speaks for itself as well.
    Last edited by clutch1222; 07/22/2010 at 06:38 PM.
  3. #83  
    I encourage all of the webOS doubters to visit the palm death watch thread... And post you negativity there and vote.
    there are plenty of critics of webOS floating around...
    just as apple had and still have on their death watch.
  4.    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    This is hilarious. Side-splittingly so. More on why in a sec.
    This is what I was referring to when I said you didn't read my post:

    it's one thing to go..."Well, I thought it was current and it was what was on hand." It's another to try to discredit legitimate gripes being due to some "negative agenda".
    This is exactly what I said.

    I think everyone here but you fully understands what I meant by current phone. Current phone means a phone that has recently been made available to the market. The EVO has been available for purchase by the mass consumer in June. I believe that qualifies as current. For clarification I did not know that at the time of the release of the Palm Pre there were better processors available. I would have thought if there were Apple or Google would have used them.
    A Snapdragon is not "better". That's part of the point.



    Ah, here's where the hilarity begins.

    First, you accuse of me of "not reading what you wrote". Which I clearly have due to my detailed responses to you. Then you accuse me of calling you a dishonest person. But let's read what I actually wrote again (or for some of us...the first time. Sigh), ok?:

    "This is a blatantly dishonest comparison. I don't think you intended it to be so. The true age of the Evo hardware is not commonly known."

    So not only did I not call you a dishonest person, but I went out of my way to say so and be explicit about it. Not only did you not give me the "respect" of reading what I wrote, but you accused me of not doing the same for you.
    I apologize I read this "I do think you intended it to be so." That is why I thought you were saying I was being dishonest. I am sorry for not reading more carefully and making an accusation that was not based on facts.
  5. #85  
    since the first response post stated that it's not fair to compare a pre to an android phone running an old version of android, then it only seems fitting to state that the pre being used must have been running an old version of webos. Unless he was in the states on vacation when the comparison was made. That detail just seems fitting with the way this thread is being treated by some people. I don't care what was changed in webos 1.4.5, all I know is that he probably wasn't running it, and somehow by the logic of "thats not fair" it just became fair.

    just sayin.... Some of the points being made against this comparison are stupid.
  6. #86  
    i like the op intentions.
    i think he meant for an honest account of how he saw the comparison.
    I found it interesting... then it gets pulled way off topic with Apple ios comments etc.

    Pre still has its Pluses ;-)... even after its first birthday.

    Viva La PRE!!!
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    Its not germane because no one is suggesting that the fix to webOS lagginess is adding an OC kernel.

    What I am saying is that new hardware with a faster CPU will make the phone more responsive. . So much so that it is up to par with phones that have just released. This kernel seems to prove as much.

    Further, I would not suggest that I want Palm to only focus on a bigger CPU. I would hope Palm is working on optimization of the software and integration of the GPU. Otherwise, as you suggested they will once again quickly fall behind.
    TA-DAAAA....!!!!

    http://www.precentral.net/webos-get-...enty-more-fall

  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Cobrakon! where the hell have you been?
    Secret missions under cover at APPLE labs?
    Or burried in a mess of IT administration at a an undisclosed location?
  9. #89  
    Mikah;

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I've explicitly given praise to the developers of these overclocks. I've said I USE an overclocked Pre. I haven't purchased an Evo. So obviously I ALSO appreciate their work and endorse it through action as well as word. .
    Honestly, while I can certainly appreciate your own efforts in this regard, they aren't relevant to this thread unless YOU comapre your overclocked Pre to an EVO, and had information to share, which would either validate or challenge the OP's.

    He NEVER, EVER said or intimated that it was a fair comparision - that was never his point. It was just that his oveclocked Pre faired well, and suprassed the EVO on several levels.

    Since we have no new WebOS phones yet, and we have no real idea of when the next one will appear, this becomes an important factor for all curent WebOS device users, who want power and speed, but do NOT want to switch to another platform to get the new hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But I don't consider an aftermarket-modded import with a guaranteed to burnout engine from years ago being able to "outrun" or keep pace with a stock model as something to celebrate..
    Im not seeing any celebration here.. no "end zone victory dances".. just lots of WebOS users looking for ways to improve thier experiences, and to prolong the life of their devices, which, they truly like and don't want to abandon, if possile.

    The WebOSInternal guys/gals are really providing an incredible asset - an option for all WebOS device users to consider, with consequences, of course, but, still, its for all users to consider and take responsibility for, if they choose to, becuase, in thier mind, the risk/consequences outweigh the reward/benefits.

    My guess is that if we are "celerating" anything, its the incredible efforts of the WebOS/Homebrew community, and not the devices, themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    That's just my take. It works for me in speeding up a laggy OS that should be getting the speed from better coding.
    You know, I have seen a number of people post this over the past months, and, as person who HAS delved (heavily, at times, to be honest) into programming over the years, Im not sure you, or anyone could say this without peeking at the source code to see the "bloat", which, by the way, has ALL to do with programming inefficiencies.. better use of libraries and routines that reduce the size of the code, and code written specially targetted to optimally use the available hardware resources.

    So, my question is, since part of WebOS (not all, but PARTS) is open source, have you downloaded and examined the source code and found such inefficiencies, or, are you just taking a stab at why you think the OS is slow?

    My personal opinion, FYI, is that the "truer form" multitasking nature of WebOS requires more processing power, and that the 500 underclocking on a 600 mhz processor was a strategic miscalculation by PALM.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But I'm not going to act as if my device keeps pace with handsets that could smoke it in several areas stock, all areas with a custom ROM or the latest OS and do so at a speed that won't shorten the life like my Pre.

    That's my opinion. Just as valid.
    Your initial statement in this quote contradicts itself. You don't and shouldnt "act as if" ANYTHING - either it does, or it doesnt outperform the EVO. If it does, so be it. If it doesn't, then how close is it, and is it worth violating the TOC of the Pre's warranty, as well as reducing the EUL of the device by 10 fold?

    The OP has stated his opinion. He wasnt trying to convince anyone. He ALSO never lowered himself to ridiculing the EVO, or Android. He just stated his oservations and judgments, and posted them for us all to read an interpret as we see fit.

    In conclusion:

    No one, as fas as I can see, has challenged your opinion as stated above to NOT feel that bragging about how an overclocked Pre can keep up with an EVO.

    What I, and others are trying to point out to you is that you shouldn't rain on someone else's parade when they do it, because, they see it much differently than you do.

    I sincerely respect your opinions, and all others who may differ from mine - its great to see how others take a stand on the same topic.. the variety of thoughts, when respectfully shared, can only help make a better understanding of the whole topic..

    But, the key word here is "respectfully"...

    Last edited by LCGuy; 07/23/2010 at 08:14 AM.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by LCGuy View Post
    Mikah;
    Honestly, while I can certainly appreciate your own efforts in this regard, they aren't relevant to this thread unless YOU comapre your overclocked Pre to an EVO, and had information to share, which would either validate or challenge the OP's.
    They are quite relevant when the OP, Clutch, and others attempt to paint what I have to say as coming from some anti-Palm where I am "burning with rage" for some ridiculous reason or another.

    He NEVER, EVER said or intimated that it was a fair comparision - that was never his point. It was just that his oveclocked Pre faired well, and suprassed the EVO on several levels.
    And I simply added context to that.

    Since we have no new WebOS phones yet, and we have no real idea of when the next one will appear, this becomes an important factor for all curent WebOS device users, who want power and speed, but do NOT want to switch to another platform to get the new hardware.
    And the context I provided should be equally as important when considering this information.

    Im not seeing any celebration here.. no "end zone victory dances".. just lots of WebOS users looking for ways to improve thier experiences, and to prolong the life of their devices, which, they truly like and don't want to abandon, if possile.
    Everybody here already overclocks, myself included. Not sure what your point is.

    My guess is that if we are "celerating" anything, its the incredible efforts of the WebOS/Homebrew community, and not the devices, themselves.
    And I explicitly gave them props in this thread already.

    You know, I have seen a number of people post this over the past months, and, as person who HAS delved (heavily, at times, to be honest) into programming over the years, Im not sure you, or anyone could say this without peeking at the source code to see the "bloat", which, by the way, has ALL to do with programming inefficiencies.. better use of libraries and routines that reduce the size of the code, and code written specially targetted to optimally use the available hardware resources.
    It's simple. The Droid and iPhone 3GS use identical hardware. They run way smoother with a lot less lag at stock speeds. We are still laggy even being overclocked. Only difference is the OS. That's where the bottleneck is.

    My personal opinion, FYI, is that the "truer form" multitasking nature of WebOS requires more processing power, and that the 500 underclocking on a 600 mhz processor was a strategic miscalculation by PALM.
    I disagree because A)Android also multitasks, yet lags much less on even older hardware like the HTC Hero. B)I experience lag daily with virtually nothing running. The screen sometimes lags when waking up with no cards open. The music player lags in loading songs. There are numerous regular lag points, and this is on an overclocked Pre.

    Your initial statement in this quote contradicts itself. You don't and shouldnt "act as if" ANYTHING - either it does, or it doesnt outperform the EVO. If it does, so be it. If it doesn't, then how close is it, and is it worth violating the TOC of the Pre's warranty, as well as reducing the EUL of the device by 10 fold?
    What's the contradiction? In my opinion, the OP "acted as if" the 1.2 ghz Pre was on par with "current handsets" when the comparison is invalid because he chose a handset that ran hardware and software the exact same age as the Pre and the current version of WebOS at stock levels.

    The OP has stated his opinion. He wasnt trying to convince anyone. He ALSO never lowered himself to ridiculing the EVO, or Android. He just stated his oservations and judgments, and posted them for us all to read an interpret as we see fit.
    Which I did.

    What I, and others are trying to point out to you is that you shouldn't rain on someone else's parade when they do it, because, they see it much differently than you do.
    Ah, and here is where the problem is. We don't really want threads like this to be discussed, challenged, and interpreted. We simply want impassive cheerleading so as not to "rain on the parade". If it's factually-challenged, who cares? This is PreCentral. As long as we're celebrating...something WebOS-related, that's all that matters.

    That's what my "crime" was in this thread. Not praising the developers ENOUGH. Not being positive ENOUGH. If I had just held onto the pom poms and joined the chorus, I'd be kosher. But I dared to look closer. I dared to think beyond what the OP presented. And when I found facts that didn't make this look as "awesome" as it was, I committed the ultimate offense and shared them with you all.

    Shame.

    Oh, well. Not going to stop me from continuing to do so.
  11. #91  
    @ mikah
    keep focusing on the negative... because thats what everyone really wants to see.
    If i am guilty of cheerleading... then you are guilty of the opposite.
    i dont have the time to get into a lengthy debate over this.
    At a time when we zero news on a new phone... you spend all of your time focusing on the negative. if you think that is the better way to go... we def disagree.
    I feel we need to celebrate the victories ... a 1.2 ghz oc on 1 yr old pre is just that.
    Android and ios have plenty to celebrate right now.
    ios and android maybe snappier.... but we all know webOS advantages to both of them.
    webOS lag compared to ios / android.... i still take webOS
    gotta go.
    keep it real mikah... real negative
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    @ mikah
    keep focusing on the negative... because thats what everyone really wants to see.
    If i am guilty of cheerleading... then you are guilty of the opposite.
    i dont have the time to get into a lengthy debate over this.
    At a time when we zero news on a new phone... you spend all of your time focusing on the negative. if you think that is the better way to go... we def disagree.
    I feel we need to celebrate the victories ... a 1.2 ghz oc on 1 yr old pre is just that.
    Android and ios have plenty to celebrate right now.
    ios and android maybe snappier.... but we all know webOS advantages to both of them.
    webOS lag compared to ios / android.... i still take webOS
    gotta go.
    keep it real mikah... real negative
    Like I said, I'm not positive enough. There's no reason for me to "take" WebOS or Android. They're operating systems, not competing sports teams. I have handsets with both. I use both. I will continue to use both for as long as I see fit. Hey, I dual-boot my netbook with Windows 7, Jolicloud, and other Linux OSes. If you don't have to limit yourself, why would you?

    As for negativity, there's nothing negative about facts. If you want to leave them out to make WebOS look better, fine. I'll be happy to fill them in.

    The definition of "negative" around here is not being 100 percent rah-rah WebOS. Silly, but hey...I can deal with it.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Like I said, I'm not positive enough. There's no reason for me to "take" WebOS or Android. They're operating systems, not competing sports teams. I have handsets with both. I use both. I will continue to use both for as long as I see fit. Hey, I dual-boot my netbook with Windows 7, Jolicloud, and other Linux OSes. If you don't have to limit yourself, why would you?

    As for negativity, there's nothing negative about facts. If you want to leave them out to make WebOS look better, fine. I'll be happy to fill them in.

    The definition of "negative" around here is not being 100 percent rah-rah WebOS. Silly, but hey...I can deal with it.
    You hit the nail on the head.

    This is the problem. I've seen this forum go from general Pre and WebOS discussions to nothing but a cult following over the course of the last 6-8 months.

    The more dire the situation for Palm financially, the more vocal the PDF (Pre Defense Force) became.

    Now that there's essentially nothing to talk about, we get these comparisons, and while they may have some sort of merit to some, at its core it's all about justifying staying with their chosen platform.

    I can appreciate some being fans of Palm and WebOS, I count myself in that lot as well, but to deny reality is foolish and looks as if you are grasping for straws.

    My point is, a handheld calculator can do some things better than a personal computer, but at the end of the day, what's better?

    Furthermore, using a kernel that's highly experimental to provide comparisons to a stock EVO is ridiculous. It's Apples to Oranges.

    Let's compare my EVO with CM6 with the phone overclocked, then will see.

    BTW, just a curiosity, I wonder what that OCed Pre would score running Linpack.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Crackbone View Post

    Furthermore, using a kernel that's highly experimental to provide comparisons to a stock EVO is ridiculous. It's Apples to Oranges.
    It's always going to be apples to oranges for one reason or another.. so basically what I'm hearing is that we shouldn't ever compare things to see the difference. It's not like he could have quickly modded the evo while it was on display, and even if he could have it still would have been apples to oranges. Using this logic, if someone were to compare a modded evo to a droid x, just to see if they were comparable, it would be a crime. Apples to oranges comparisons are done all of the time, pretty much everytime a new phone comes out, so i'm not sure why this one has all of the sudden become such an issue.

    How are we supposed to know how much an overclock improves performance if we aren't supposed to compare it to anything. This is a good phone choice because they are on the same network. Yes it would be interesting to see what the modded pre was like next to a modded evo, but that doesn't tell us what the performance would be like next to a stock evo.

    Not sure what the big deal is. Yes making suggestions on other comparisons that could be made is fine, but whats the point of ripping apart this one?

    @crackbone, even though i qouted you i'm not directing this entire post at you.
  15. #95  
    yes.. The more dire the situation became with palm... The more defensive the users of webOS became. I guess people are having a hard time understanding why.

    I will speak for me personally. I had a hard time reading posts from users pooping all over webOS and precentral community.
    imo, that is an example of very weak character. Lets say user X is a big ios fan. He feels the need to come onthis site and post how bad webOS is.. And how it's destined to fail... Anyday etc.
    I find it intersting that those type of users didn't bother you as much as the ines who didn't want to see webOS disappear... And wanted to voice their support in these forums.

    so.. Your opininions are you hate pom pom cheerleaders.
    mine is I hate voltures that look for anything negative they can exploit in a thread...

    a perfect balance does not exist....
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by KJBlauw View Post
    It's always going to be apples to oranges for one reason or another.. so basically what I'm hearing is that we shouldn't ever compare things to see the difference. It's not like he could have quickly modded the evo while it was on display, and even if he could have it still would have been apples to oranges. Using this logic, if someone were to compare a modded evo to a droid x, just to see if they were comparable, it would be a crime. Apples to oranges comparisons are done all of the time, pretty much everytime a new phone comes out, so i'm not sure why this one has all of the sudden become such an issue.

    How are we supposed to know how much an overclock improves performance if we aren't supposed to compare it to anything. This is a good phone choice because they are on the same network. Yes it would be interesting to see what the modded pre was like next to a modded evo, but that doesn't tell us what the performance would be like next to a stock evo.

    Not sure what the big deal is. Yes making suggestions on other comparisons that could be made is fine, but whats the point of ripping apart this one?
    What's the point of presenting a comparison where you eschew important supporting details?

    It's like I could tell the story of how I - an untrained fighter and average joe - managed to beat the crap out of the UFC fighter Fedor Emelianenko one day. Sure, it might "give hope" to people like me or make us "feel better" about the choices we made, but if I left out that I meant in a videogame or when he was a kid in grade school, then it's not as revelatory as it seemed when I first told it, now is it?

    Compare all you like. That's what this forum is for. But I always thought the more details and context provided, the more useful the comparison is. Isn't that what logic, science, and reason are based on? In this bizarro forum, details and additional facts only serve to lessen the usefulness of the comparison. That's just negative and tearing it apart. Booooo. Don't rain on my parade, man.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It's like I could tell the story of how I - an untrained fighter and average joe - managed to beat the crap out of the UFC fighter Fedor Emelianenko one day. Sure, it might "give hope" to people like me or make us "feel better" about the choices we made, but if I left out that I meant in a videogame or when he was a kid in grade school, then it's not as revelatory as it seemed when I first told it, now is it?
    I guess i missed the part where he said he compared the pre theoretically to the evo in a video game. I'm not sure what he left out? Was it the fact that the evo was stock? I think that we could all conclude that since it was a display model at a mall. Was it that the version of android was old? This isn't really relevant because he was using an old version of webos. Was it the fact that the Snapdragon processor came out at essentially the same time as the omap in the pre? You said it yourself that hardware isn't the answer and software optimization is the big winner... pretty sure android got upgraded a few times since that processor came out, but maybe that doesn't matter if it doesn't help your point (whatever your point was), but the speed of the processor is relevant and came out of the box at twice the clock speed as the pre. Was it the fact that he didn't reflect your opinion that we shouldn't have to overclock to achieve this and Palm should optimize the os to make it faster not just throw a bigger cpu at it. DING DING DING!! I think we have a winner.

    Not sure what your deal is, but it seems the op somehow insulted you personally. Sorry if he did, but i'm sure he didn't mean to.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by KJBlauw View Post
    I guess i missed the part where he said he compared the pre theoretically to the evo in a video game. I'm not sure what he left out? Was it the fact that the evo was stock? I think that we could all conclude that since it was a display model at a mall. Was it that the version of android was old? This isn't really relevant because he was using an old version of webos. Was it the fact that the Snapdragon processor came out at essentially the same time as the omap in the pre? You said it yourself that hardware isn't the answer and software optimization is the big winner... pretty sure android got upgraded a few times since that processor came out, but maybe that doesn't matter if it doesn't help your point (whatever your point was), but the speed of the processor is relevant and came out of the box at twice the clock speed as the pre. Was it the fact that he didn't reflect your opinion that we shouldn't have to overclock to achieve this and Palm should optimize the os to make it faster not just throw a bigger cpu at it. DING DING DING!! I think we have a winner.
    I've already explained it repeatedly and at length. I've explained why it was relevant. That's primarily why this thread is five pages long. Agree or disagree my explanations. I don't really care.

    The only person who's been "personally insulted" and acted like it is the OP, who pretty much misread something I wrote and then apologized to me. Beyond that, it's just me correcting inaccurate assertions. Like yours above:

    Was it the fact that the Snapdragon processor came out at essentially the same time as the omap in the pre? You said it yourself that hardware isn't the answer and software optimization is the big winner... pretty sure android got upgraded a few times since that processor came out, but maybe that doesn't matter if it doesn't help your point (whatever your point was), but the speed of the processor is relevant and came out of the box at twice the clock speed as the pre.
    First off, Android did not get upgraded "a few times" since that processor came out. The first widely distributed Android phone and the first in the US to use the Snapdragon was the Google Nexus One which debuted with 2.1 in January, the exact same OS version that the Evo uses. Second, if the speed of the processor is so relevant, then that makes this comparison even more invalid since the Pre was running at a higher clockspeed than the Evo.

    But I guess it's good to know that the Pre with every hack in its favor can "keep pace with" a competing handset clocked lower using an older OS multitasking multiple widgets with identically-aged yet weaker hardware. Really reflects well on WebOS, eh?
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I've already explained it repeatedly and at length. I've explained why it was relevant. That's primarily why this thread is five pages long. Agree or disagree my explanations. I don't really care.

    The only person who's been "personally insulted" and acted like it is the OP, who pretty much misread something I wrote and then apologized to me. Beyond that, it's just me correcting inaccurate assertions. Like yours above:



    First off, Android did not get upgraded "a few times" since that processor came out. The first widely distributed Android phone and the first in the US to use the Snapdragon was the Google Nexus One which debuted with 2.1 in January, the exact same OS version that the Evo uses. Second, if the speed of the processor is so relevant, then that makes this comparison even more invalid since the Pre was running at a higher clockspeed than the Evo.

    But I guess it's good to know that the Pre with every hack in its favor can "keep pace with" a competing handset clocked lower using an older OS multitasking multiple widgets with identically-aged yet weaker hardware. Really reflects well on WebOS, eh?
    I think people forget lag isn't the only negative of WebOS at this moment compared to the rest of the market.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    First off, Android did not get upgraded "a few times" since that processor came out. The first widely distributed Android phone and the first in the US to use the Snapdragon was the Google Nexus One which debuted with 2.1 in January, the exact same OS version that the Evo uses. Second, if the speed of the processor is so relevant, then that makes this comparison even more invalid since the Pre was running at a higher clockspeed than the Evo.
    I guess I misunderstood your argument about the processor then. But let me see if I can correct your "politician like" statement above. The snapdragon processor is apparently "new" technology when compared to the pre, according to the above statement. But you felt it relevant to state that the Snapdragon was running on a phone at the same time as the launch of the Pre, and therefore wasn't a good comparison to "new" technology. You might have to correct me on this statement, but wasn't android running version 1.6 when the pre came out? And I am quite certain that the first phone running android 2.0 was the droid... 2.0 was a BIG jump for android, and 2.1 was another significant improvement.

    You validated the OP's comparison with your above statement, but disputed it in earlier posts.

    So which is it? you can't have both

    You don't even need to answer the question... all I'm doing here is showing how out of control this has gotten. I'm not going to open this thread anymore because arguing over the internet gains about as much as trying to convince your cat that it should feel bad for pooping in the corner. (the cat thing doesn't work... trust me)
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