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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    I think it hurts "brand recognition" for the general consumer... but it certainly has been more of a help than a hindrance at this point. Verizon has found some middle ground with "Droid" (various phones in the same line). This decision and their in your face marketing have helped the Android market explode (imo).
    indeed. That will be Android (the OS)'s toughest battle. Absolutely no branding. No consumer loyalty to brand and no brand experience.

    Even the OS, which could be a brand banner, is experienced by people so very differently from phone to phone, that even "Android Users" won't have a common brand experience.

    Makes it extremely tough to develop loyalty, recurring customers and an eco system this way.
  2. #22  
    ^Not true for Android itself. It does have loyalty, recurring customers and a nice modding community that can help with the common brand experience. Also, even with it's difference between manufacturers, Android itself still does many things the same across the board.

    As for individual manufacturers, HTC has certainly made itself relevant. Motorola also, even though they have sucky rules. Samsung is a little slow(Moment and Behold II were a bit lackluster), but with the Galaxy S, they could break out. Great reviews for that line so far.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by abegee View Post
    yeah that's what they should aim for, BUT I'm pretty sure they don't think that way, and that's where the issue is
    how do you know how they think?... HP/Palm has made zero smartphone announcements!!... they havent said a thing!
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by dj ozone View Post
    how do you know how they think?... HP/Palm has made zero smartphone announcements!!... they havent said a thing!
    I don't know, but as I said I'm pretty sure, since as you mentioned, they haven't made any anouncements regarding smartphones in todays market, with apple having a new phone and android growing every single day with new phones and updates and Palm telling us to "stay tuned", it seems obvious things are on HOLD which is very bad for Palm, people are waiting for anouncements and all they are getting is "soon", problem is "soon" is too little to late.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by abegee View Post
    yeah that's what they should aim for, BUT I'm pretty sure they don't think that way, and that's where the issue is
    I think you're mistaken. Go back and look at some of the products HP introduced to the consumer market. They are there. You have to look a little to find them, and you have to ignore the preconception that the enterprise are all they are interested in, but they are out there.

    As an example - yes, every large enterprise I've ever worked in had HP printers, most had HP scanners. None of them had HP scanner/printer combinations.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by abegee View Post
    I don't know, but as I said I'm pretty sure, since as you mentioned, they haven't made any anouncements regarding smartphones in todays market, with apple having a new phone and android growing every single day with new phones and updates and Palm telling us to "stay tuned", it seems obvious things are on HOLD which is very bad for Palm, people are waiting for anouncements and all they are getting is "soon", problem is "soon" is too little to late.
    Until a little over 2 weeks ago, both Palm and HP couldn't say anything, they had a pending deal. Not only couldn't they say anything, but they couldn't actively collaborate on products either. Now they can work on the products. You won't see an announcement this quick, it's only been two weeks.

    I'm not going to worry much until a couple months have gone by with no announcements, but I don't think that's going to happen.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think you're mistaken. Go back and look at some of the products HP introduced to the consumer market. They are there. You have to look a little to find them, and you have to ignore the preconception that the enterprise are all they are interested in, but they are out there.

    As an example - yes, every large enterprise I've ever worked in had HP printers, most had HP scanners. None of them had HP scanner/printer combinations.
    that sort of sums it up, they "are out there" and "we have to look to find them", in the smartphone world, IF I have to "look to find a Palm phone" and "palm phones are out there" sure doesn't sound like a company in the smartphone race.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Until a little over 2 weeks ago, both Palm and HP couldn't say anything, they had a pending deal. Not only couldn't they say anything, but they couldn't actively collaborate on products either. Now they can work on the products. You won't see an announcement this quick, it's only been two weeks.

    I'm not going to worry much until a couple months have gone by with no announcements, but I don't think that's going to happen.
    I hope that the reason we haven't had an anouncement was due to them "not working together", but remember every day in the "smartphone race" is costing Palm/HP dearly
  9. #29  
    Well you have to analyze it using open source style evolution. Android is open source, and like linux there are many many iterations of the OS. That will never change IMHO. As for the gluttony and over exposure to the market, well there are 2 points for that. The market is driving this and there is more then the demand for it. Not everyone wants a slab phone with no keyboard, just as not everyone wants a small screen or a big screen or a landscape keyboard or a ..... The list goes on. There is a demand for many different variations of an android phone hardware and the only thing I see happening is a limit on the production of hardware. This may slow down like it did for computer hardware due to not being able to move the hardware as fast as the development demand.

    Honestly I like having many many options as you can almost choose the perfect phone for your needs as opposed to settling on one a few options.
    Misc electronic organizers > Cassiopeia > palm pilot III > Palm Pilot VII/Zire 21 > Treo 90 > Treo 650 > PPC6700 > Treo 755p > PPC6800 > Palm Pro > Palm Pre
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by abegee View Post
    I hope that the reason we haven't had an anouncement was due to them "not working together", but remember every day in the "smartphone race" is costing Palm/HP dearly
    But also remember that putting a "rough around the edges" product to market costs them even more. Granted the pre is looong over due for a replacement, but being too hasty to produce a product that will only in turn tick off the customers who invest in it will have more then just a loss in revenue.
    Misc electronic organizers > Cassiopeia > palm pilot III > Palm Pilot VII/Zire 21 > Treo 90 > Treo 650 > PPC6700 > Treo 755p > PPC6800 > Palm Pro > Palm Pre
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by abegee View Post
    that sort of sums it up, they "are out there" and "we have to look to find them", in the smartphone world, IF I have to "look to find a Palm phone" and "palm phones are out there" sure doesn't sound like a company in the smartphone race.
    By "you have to look for them" I simply meant that they are overshadowed by the massave amount of enterprise level products HP has.

    Yes, if you look at HPs product line, you'll see much more enterprise level products. However, if you walk into a Best Buy, a Costco, WalMart, even an Office Max, you'll see a much bigger selection of consumer level products than enterprise products. Big companies don't buy $59 all in one printers.
  12. #32  
    ok I understand what your saying, I just hope they really are working hard on a device, it shouldn't take too long since they have the OS and are buildong a 2nd gen phone, abd they have hpefully learned from their mistakes
  13. #33  
    Many speculated that Palm already had things to announce but was holding off until everything was final. It's only been a couple weeks... but I would say if you don't hear anything within the next 2-4 weeks... be concerned... be very concerned.

    It means there was never anything truly ready to be announced...
    Or plans have changed somewhat significantly... which will likely take even more time to work itself out.

    Either way... it likely means you are fairly safe now moving to another platform (if you desire) and returning to Palm (if you desire) when/if this "announcement" comes to fruition (i.e. actually released).
  14. #34  
    LOL. Want to talk about fragmentation? Look at the Palm Pre. It's been a month since we got 1.4.5 on Sprint. Where is it for AT&T and Verizon? Not to mention O2 Germany users got it back in June. Pot, kettle, black.
    Treo 300 > Hitachi G1000 > PPC-6700 > PPC-6800 (Mogul) > PPC-6850 (Touch Pro) > Palm Pre & HTC EVO Optimus V
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by dallashigh View Post
    LOL. Want to talk about fragmentation? Look at the Palm Pre. It's been a month since we got 1.4.5 on Sprint. Where is it for AT&T and Verizon? Not to mention O2 Germany users got it back in June. Pot, kettle, black.
    First let me start off by saying that Palm has sent 1.4.5 to AT&T and Verizon...if there is a delay it is because of the carrier which is a little different then Androids fragmentation.

    Their are Android devices...new ones that don't even have the froyo 2.2. The Dell devices being a great example. You should really do your research before making a statement about pots and kettles. Some of this fragmentation is due to hardware...and some of it is due to the fact that it seems that a new Android device pops up every month. I could go on and on explaining this in more detail but I just got off work...

    I will add that in some cases the fragmentation with Android is the carriers fault as well...however you can't compare WebOS and Android when it comes to fragmentation.
  16. #36  
    I've often thought about this from a developers perspective. I'm on my second Android device now that is drastically different from my last, and my last phone is still a relevant handset in todays market.

    Right now, the choice seems like a great thing for consumers; you don't like what A has to offer, B is almost there but C seems like the perfect fit. What the general consumer doesn't realize that under the hood A, B and C are drastically different devices making it difficult or nearly impossible for developers to support (primarily games).

    I'm not sure what Google can do or is doing to tame not the software fragmentation but the hardware fragmentation.

    While an application (or game) may run great on one device, it may perform terribly on another and this doesn't bode well for the developer when terrible reviews are left in the Market and something like this is out of their control. The developer always get's the blame.

    While many don't see it, I do think Apple and Palm's idea of controlling both the hardware and software is key. If Palm only had the funding of say what Apple has and was able to take their time with WebOS and release a solid well-polished WebOS 1.0 I think they'd be singing a completely different tune today.

    The Pre, while the hardware on the outside is to be desired the internals is still very much relevant today - it's the software that is lacking and makes the hardware seem incapable.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    I've often thought about this from a developers perspective. I'm on my second Android device now that is drastically different from my last, and my last phone is still a relevant handset in todays market.

    Right now, the choice seems like a great thing for consumers; you don't like what A has to offer, B is almost there but C seems like the perfect fit. What the general consumer doesn't realize that under the hood A, B and C are drastically different devices making it difficult or nearly impossible for developers to support (primarily games).

    I'm not sure what Google can do or is doing to tame not the software fragmentation but the hardware fragmentation.

    While an application (or game) may run great on one device, it may perform terribly on another and this doesn't bode well for the developer when terrible reviews are left in the Market and something like this is out of their control. The developer always get's the blame.

    While many don't see it, I do think Apple and Palm's idea of controlling both the hardware and software is key. If Palm only had the funding of say what Apple has and was able to take their time with WebOS and release a solid well-polished WebOS 1.0 I think they'd be singing a completely different tune today.

    The Pre, while the hardware on the outside is to be desired the internals is still very much relevant today - it's the software that is lacking and makes the hardware seem incapable.
    Don't we have the same "problem" in the non-mobile world? PCs have been fragmented for years, haven't they? It may be frustrating, but we developers figure it out in the end. Yes, it makes the developer's life a little more...challenging but it works out. I would really hate to see a day when there is only one offering per OS (mobile or not).

    Maybe the answer in the Android and any other mobile market is to simply allow the developer to state which devices are supported. That way consumers who give bad ratings from an unsupported device can be ignored by consumers with supported device. I say this because on almost all of the software that I've ever purchased, there is a "Minimum Requirements" label somewhere on the box.

    Fragmentation is not as big an issue as some make it out to be. We've been in a fragmented computing world for decades. It is a by-product of choice. Companies should make the products that users need/want. It should never be that consumers must change their needs and wants to what a company produces.

    What if Windows (on a single PC configuration) were all that was available? We developers would have an easier job, sure. But would the consumer be happy? If all consumers wanted exactly the same device and OS, all other devices and OSes would fail. Since not all of them are failing, it would seem the market has already decided that it is OK with fragmentation (within and across OSes).
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by ferriskeanu View Post
    First let me start off by saying that Palm has sent 1.4.5 to AT&T and Verizon...if there is a delay it is because of the carrier which is a little different then Androids fragmentation.

    Their are Android devices...new ones that don't even have the froyo 2.2. The Dell devices being a great example. You should really do your research before making a statement about pots and kettles. Some of this fragmentation is due to hardware...and some of it is due to the fact that it seems that a new Android device pops up every month. I could go on and on explaining this in more detail but I just got off work...

    I will add that in some cases the fragmentation with Android is the carriers fault as well...however you can't compare WebOS and Android when it comes to fragmentation.
    I see the point in your argument, but you are looking at it from a different angle. Yes, there are ton of Android devices out, and that means that some of them get left in the dust. But that only makes my point stronger. There are two Palm devices, and they still can't get them all on 1.4.5. Just about every firmware update for every phone, regardless of operating system, has to be approved by the carrier, so that does not excuse one OS over another.

    Meanwhile over 28% of Android devices are already running 2.2. Froyo wasn't finalized until June 23. Now I know that O2 Germany got 1.4.5 on June 30, but I'm sure it was finalized and sent to the carrier long before that.

    The argument that Palm is resistant to fragmentation because they make both the hardware and software is being disproven right now. Almost two months after 1.4.5 came out in Germany, the two largest US carriers have yet to put it on their Pres. Whatever excuses you want to make, that fact remains.
    Treo 300 > Hitachi G1000 > PPC-6700 > PPC-6800 (Mogul) > PPC-6850 (Touch Pro) > Palm Pre & HTC EVO Optimus V
  19.    #39  
    how much of Android fragmentation is the result of every hardware manufacturer's UI skin? Is anyone selling an Android phone without any UI tweaks? With having to update a UI for every OS update, that has to take a lot of resources. This could lead to android phones being obsolete in months if maufacturers don't want to update UIs on every model. Is webOS getting fragmented because the carriers are so busy rolling out the android-of-the-month that they put updates on the back burner?
  20. #40  
    Well updating the UI is, for the most part, a one-shot deal. So in that sense, the more devices a manufacturer has, the more incentive they have to update their UI to work on the latest software.

    Yes, there are some devices out there that don't have any custom UI skins.

    This is just opinion here, but I believe that Palm phones are a low priority for the carriers, especially for AT&T and Verizon. Whatever the reason, I hope that things change when the next webOS phone comes out.

    I'm not down on webOS. I still have my Pre. I still develop for it. I still use it. I still love it. But there came a point when I woke up and faced the reality that the Pre/webOS is not the end-all, be-all.
    Treo 300 > Hitachi G1000 > PPC-6700 > PPC-6800 (Mogul) > PPC-6850 (Touch Pro) > Palm Pre & HTC EVO Optimus V
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