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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by empathyrus View Post
    I disagree with the original post. Here's why. WebOS is a compelling OS and should stir developers' imaginations to produce more and higher quality apps, but uptake has been slow.
    Clearly WebOS is not that compelling for the majority of mobile developers. I think a lot of that has to do with the poor quality of their original development tools. Things are somewhat better now but not good enough for Datviz and others.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Developers saw the device, the OS, the total experience, and imagined what they could do with that kind of system to play with.
    No. Developers saw that Apple had dominated the MP3 player market, and they wanted to make money when Apple did the same to cell phones. That's it. Imagination doesn't motivate developers NEARLY as well as money does. (Imagine where Linux would be if "I'll get an OS for free" wasn't part of the perks.)

    There's little that you can do with an iPhone that you fundamentally could not do with a Treo or a Windows Mobile phone or a blackberry. But since the iPhone was predestined to sell millions of units, to a portion of the public with a sizable amount of disposable income who had proven their willingness to buy music with more DRM than had ever caught on, there was about to be a new distinct market and a whole bunch of new winners.

    Those developers in the iPhone store, and apple itself, have a limited amount of time before their first-mover advantage goes away. Apple knows this, and is making intentional design decisions in "iOS" with an aim at extending their first-mover platform advantage as long as possible. Eventually, there won't be any task you can do with an iPhone that you cannot do with an Android or WebOS or Blackberry... and I imagine that WebOS will shoot pretty high to the front of the pack, as soon PDK and Hybrid apps are available.

    (Especially if Palm makes it at least as easy to port an app from Android as it is from iOS.)
    Doug Meerschaert
    NoInsultSoftware.com

    Apps: Scratch, GasMath, CheckMath
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Planesdragon View Post
    No. Developers saw that Apple had dominated the MP3 player market, and they wanted to make money when Apple did the same to cell phones. That's it. Imagination doesn't motivate developers NEARLY as well as money does. (Imagine where Linux would be if "I'll get an OS for free" wasn't part of the perks.)

    While I don't disagree with your premise (money spurs development) I gotta say: I have 40-50 apps and I can only think of 3 or 4 I have paid for.

    And one of them was an upgraded version of a free app I had used and liked, another was an ad-free version of an app I use ALOT - so it was worth the $.99(!) to me. And another was the stargazer app.

    The others have all been free, free, free. And some really amazing apps. In fact I did wonder, esp with the apps that had no real "call to action" for a future product, "why free?" because they were so helpful.

    (Granted, I think paid apps are more common now than a year or two ago, but the info still stands: a heck of a lot of developers are NOT charging.)
  4. #24  
    I think the dandbj13 has written and thoughtful and interesting piece but it but its full of assumptions that I don't agree with and this early paragraph is a perfect example.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Almost every one around here talks about the App Store as if it has always been there. You believe that developers are drawn to the App Store because it represents 100 million users and a whole lot of money. You believe that HP will greatly help Palm in that department because HP has a lot of money and incentives to throw at developers, and/or, new devices will sell more with the backing of HP, and developers will be drawn to the platform when it is more successful in the marketplace. As intuitive and sensible as that sounds, all of it is wrong.
    The majority of users here I think are fully aware of the history of the App Store but you did lay out a nice history of its development. Many of the users here have been or are currently iphone users such as yourself. I guess that people talk about how things are currently because that's what matters in tech world. Its about now and tomorrow and yesterday may get you a nod or a pat on the back. Maybe that's why you think almost every one here talks like it has been around forever.

    I do agree with you that the early success of the App Store was based on developers being excited about a new platform to develop for and that this got their creative juices flowing. What also got there interest even more was the overnight success of this phone. Apple parlayed the success and market of the ipod and made it into a phone and created a groundbreaking device. Designers love audiences and before there were web apps and third party apps, there was an audience of millions waiting to be entertained. Yes I do think the success of the iphone led to the success and interest of app development for that platform more so than the creative urge of the developers. If the iphone flopped, I doubt developers would have been as interested in what they could do cause no one would be paying attention.

    Its also important to realize that Apple already had a stable of developers who they honored each year(or used to honor) for their work with the mac. Apple has always been the brand of choice for the creative folks and developers alike so naturally they would be jumping on any chance to develop for a new Apple platform. It was a natural extension of what they were already doing.

    I think you really miss the point on why people here are excited about HP and what they may be able to do for webOS. It has nothing to do with HP paying developers to write for webOS although they might call on some of their relationships for some enterprise apps. What HP brings to the table is stability. This is something Palm has not had in awhile.

    Palm was a very small and dying company whose best days were believed to be behind them but then surprisingly created some hope and a lot of buzz by developing webOS. I think developers took some interest but not a lot. The App Store was already a runaway success and the user base was growing faster than any other platform. WebOS hadn't a single user. When the Pre failed to live up to the hype in sales and a limited SDK was rushed out the door a couple months after launch, any developers who were still interested started to look elsewhere. I've seen countless threads from people contacting developers and being told something to the extent of, "We don't have any plans to develop for webOS" Why would they? There wasn't much of an audience for them and the tools to develop with were limited even if they were feeling the need to exercise their creative juices.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Also, consider the type of developer each platform draws: Android attracts a more hard core version of the iPhone developer. These are people who are deep into the geekosphere. They make things that are cool, but not necessarily useful or safe. A recent article revealed that fully 20% of all Android apps put the privacy of the user at risk, some even doing malicious things in the background. WebOS attracts developers who want to patch and fix and improve and tweak the basic functionality of the OS. WebOS developers are more represented in the Homebrew community than in the native development community. WP7 attracts the type of developer who must be paid to lift a finger. They are seeking developers who have no passion for the platform. I wonder what kind of apps that will birth.
    This is another paragraph of assumptions. Yes there is a segment of Android developers that won't develop for the iphone due their belief in and loyalty to open source platforms. There are also Apple developers who won't develop for any other platform out of a loyalty to Apple. Its an old battle started back in the 80's. The majority though will happily develop for both platforms as each has a different challenges and more importantly, an audience. iIt wasn't always this way. Android took awhile to get started but has now become a huge success with phones like the Droid, Incredible, and EVO. As their market share expanded, so did their App Market. The reason that you can find malicious apps in Android is due to the open nature of the platform then the "geeky" nature of the developers.

    Every web developer out there is potential webOS developer. With the introduction of the PDK, that opens it up to just about any developer out there. The reason why homebrew is so prevalent in webOS is because you are on these forums. Most of the million or so people who have bought webOS phones have never once patched their phone or heard of Preware. We have seen what developers can do with the PDK and the SDK looks to become much more powerful in the fall. With HP bringing financial stability to Palm and possibly a larger workforce, they will be able to focus on more than just staying afloat. Whether or not this will help webOS increase their market share is up to debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    In summary, Palm is losing the game because they do not understand the nature of it. Palm does not need to sell a lot of units to attract great developers; they need to create ONE great device that fires the imagination. They have to stop thinking like an Asian KIRF company, and start figuring out what hasn't already been done. It does not have to have a bigger screen than the Evo, or more pixels than the iPhone, or more ram than the... You get the point. They need to think about what things they can enable end users to do that is not already accessible. What new worlds can they open? The specs don't matter. Specs don't fire the imagination. Enable people in new and interesting ways and Palm can sell three dollars worth of parts for three hundred. People buy what the product enables, not the product. Do that, and developers even better than those currently working on the iPhone platform will beat down your door.
    I'm sorry I had to skip over your multiple paragraphs about how iphone users are people too. What the hell was all of that?

    I think Palm understands the nature of the game quite well. That doesn't mean they aren't prone to bad marketing decisions(see creepy chick ads) or production issues(see oreo effect, headphone jack threads). They obviously have a vision as webOS is considered a great UI in the mobile world by many people that have nothing to do with precentral. Palms problems seem to be a mixture of capital, time, workforce, and sales. I think you forget how small Palm really is when compared to Apple or Google. They don't need to develop a device to capture the imaginations and hearts of developers. They don't need to develop a revolutionary device although that would be great and the easiest path to success. They just need to develop a device that sells. Its as simple as that. If it sells, the developers and hence the apps will come.
    Last edited by Superjudge; 06/25/2010 at 11:40 AM.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by ka1 View Post
    It doesn't really have multitasking, and even now it is asking applications to handle this (something most OS's do themselves). It doesn't do notifications well (blocks stuff?), even in iOS4. It requires a desktop to install stuff. It still doesn't have the synchronization that Web OS (and Sense UI) have.
    No it really does have multi-tasking. It just restricts 3rd party access to it. Also, it does not require desktop access to install apps, setup email accounts or get Calendar and Contact data from google (or any exchange server).
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Take a look at this video of an iPhone 4 gyroscope-enabled first-person shooter on Engadget. It's incredible.

    [url= gunning on the iPhone 4 with Eliminate: Gun Range (video) -- Engadget[/url]

    Look at the response to the Face Time video chat feature just on the first day of release. Sure, the EVO has it but nobody bothered using it.

    Apple continues to push out hardware features like this to tens of millions of users per year and empowering the developers with powerful tools and revenue-enhancing market share.

    Palm takes your $2 app and discounts it to $1. Meanwhile, no hardware announcement means a lot of the original adopters are jumping ship. Palm is so far away from being competitive in this market that people don't really even mention it in platform reviews anymore.
    I think Palm is ok with losing users. Thye ended up getting a buyer which was essential and figure they can get users back in one way or another. Besides it sounds like HP has a much grander plan for webOS that expands beyond just the smartphone and tablet market.

    Palm can't make any annoucments till the buyout is finalized. They can't do anything in the public eye that could effect stock value and announcing a new handset could do that.
  7.    #27  
    UG, I downloaded it earlier today. It really is all that, and a bag of chips. I am, at best, a casual gammer: boards and puzzles. This technology will make me a first person shooter. I grabbed it as a tech demo. I am now convinced that it will change the face of gaming, bringing a whole new audience into the fold like the Wii did when it was first introduced.

    This is the type of thing I was talking about. If Palm, even in its current condition, had put out a device with this capability, even if it was just a Pre+ with gyro, iPhone developers would have temporarily laid aside their projects to develop something for it. Now, it's too late. Apple got there first. But there are plenty more opportunities to define an experience. Palm needs to define an experience, not try to match someone else's definition. That is how they, and anyone else can win. That is how Apple won. One could say they leveraged their iPod market. But there would have been no iPod market if Apple had not first defined the portable music experience.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
    I think Palm is ok with losing users...
    I don't think so. Losing users is a big part of the problem Palm faces. Instead of going after new users, Palm has to spend a lot of time and resources on maintaining, worse yet, winning back their base.

    Apple, on the other hand, has increasing customer loyalty. That loyalty is not just coming from a handful of old fanatics, it is coming from an increasing number of new users. With 77% repeat business, Apple can spend all of its energy on expanding the already big tent.

    Here's a link for that 77% figure.

    AppleInsider | Apple's recurring revenue stream: 77% of iPhone 4 sales were upgrades
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    #29  
    I liked dandbj13's post. What I got from it is that Apple injected a shot of magic into mobile computing with the iPhone, and sparked a lot of developer imaginations. I agree with that.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I don't think so. Losing users is a big part of the problem Palm faces. Instead of going after new users, Palm has to spend a lot of time and resources on maintaining, worse yet, winning back their base.
    Actually Palm doesn't have to spend time and money to get users back, HP does. Lets face it, Palm's priority for most of this year was finding a buyer or someone to inject a ****load of capital into their business. They got the buyer and now we'll get to see if having the resources they need will help get webOS of the bottom floor. It will be interesting nonetheless.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
    Actually Palm doesn't have to spend time and money to get users back, HP does.
    True, Palm no longer exists. Its now just a Brand that HP happens to own.
  12. #32  
    Interesting timeline that they had 3,000 apps at the end of 2008:
    The History of the iPhone [INFOGRAPHIC]
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    Interesting timeline that they had 3,000 apps at the end of 2008:
    The History of the iPhone [INFOGRAPHIC]
    six months after launch and 50,000 six months later.
  14. #34  
    To the OP.

    You had me at the beginning. But the more you ramble on, the less true your statements become.

    1. Why is Apple disallowing cross-platform compilers. Becuase they are afraid of the apps getting onto every platform instead of just theirs.

    2. Why does everyone in the world KNOW all the things an iphone can do but they cant name the plethora of things it cannot do. A good example was last night, a news program ran a story about Facetime being the "first" mobile video chat service. Not only do they not even know that this is complete BS, they also fail to mention that both people have to be on an iphone and using a WIFI network. Kind of pointless to use within those parameters, right?


    I tend to think differently than you. The reason a majority of developers write iphone apps isnt because they are inspired, its economics. More iphones=more buyers.
    Iphone 4 was the absolute 1st iteration where Apple was playing catch-up to Android (or anyone for that matter). What i see happening is Android realeasin 2 devices per month for the next year, and gaining a LOT of ground on Apple.

    If android, iphone, and webos all used the exact same app catalog, do you still think iphone would be in the lead? I dont. I thin Android would be ruling all, with webOS and iphone coming in fairly close. Why would you buy an iOS4 when you can have webOS and have a lot more freedom and all the same apps.

    Its all about APPS. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise.
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    1. Why is Apple disallowing cross-platform compilers. Becuase they are afraid of the apps getting onto every platform instead of just theirs.
    This is just factually untrue. In order for apps to take advantage of native features of the iOS such as their implementation of multitasking, programs CAN'T be developed in most of those banned cross compilers such as Flash. Apple does not want a bunch of app in the App Store written for least common denominator devices that don't allow the iPhone to be the iPhone.
  16. #36  
    The fact of the matter that this nice thread points out, is that the success of the iPhone and the App Store is based on Apple's mojo, how it created it and sustained it - they made excellent products that are easy to use, and ADVERTISED it as such. Their commercials are straight forward and show what their products can do in the hands of the average person, not the geek, supergeek, or even semi-geek, just the average Jane. Moreover, look at the iPhone App Store - it's an actual store, that clearly makes it easy for an average person to find something that he/she would find useful. Google iPhone App Store and what do you get? the iPhone App Store. Google Palm Pre App Store and what do you get? a jumbled mess that isn't even close to what you can view at the Apple, no full web page describing the app, just a picture and a paragraph....hardly useful.

    I'm a Palm Pre user, have always been a Palm user, but sometimes I wonder why I stick around.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Planesdragon View Post
    No. Developers saw that Apple had dominated the MP3 player market, and they wanted to make money when Apple did the same to cell phones. That's it. Imagination doesn't motivate developers NEARLY as well as money does. (Imagine where Linux would be if "I'll get an OS for free" wasn't part of the perks.)

    There's little that you can do with an iPhone that you fundamentally could not do with a Treo or a Windows Mobile phone or a blackberry. But since the iPhone was predestined to sell millions of units, to a portion of the public with a sizable amount of disposable income who had proven their willingness to buy music with more DRM than had ever caught on, there was about to be a new distinct market and a whole bunch of new winners.

    Those developers in the iPhone store, and apple itself, have a limited amount of time before their first-mover advantage goes away. Apple knows this, and is making intentional design decisions in "iOS" with an aim at extending their first-mover platform advantage as long as possible. Eventually, there won't be any task you can do with an iPhone that you cannot do with an Android or WebOS or Blackberry... and I imagine that WebOS will shoot pretty high to the front of the pack, as soon PDK and Hybrid apps are available.

    (Especially if Palm makes it at least as easy to port an app from Android as it is from iOS.)
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    THEY WERE ALL USING SOMETHING ELSE FOUR YEARS AGO!
    Yes, ipods. Apple migrated their ipod users over to the iphone. Apps followed. That's it.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    This.



    Yes, ipods. Apple migrated their ipod users over to the iphone. Apps followed. That's it.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
    I wasn't aware the iPod could be used for phone calls.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I wasn't aware the iPod could be used for phone calls.
    It can if you call it an iphone and put a cell radio in it.
    Last edited by foosball; 06/25/2010 at 10:13 PM.
  20.    #40  
    Another very good read.

    Draw your own conclusions. I will chime in later with a few of mine.
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