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  1.    #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    lol... hey, you were the one telling other people 'prepared to be schooled' and reading off hp's press release site without understanding what you writing down nor without any real understanding of what hp is.

    you read a few things and you think they are going to integrate webos with a supercomputer that will have far reaching effects to all devices and be a part of everything they do? will it learn to a self aware system and they will rename it SKYNET?

    wasn't my intent to school you... was just straightening things out for you. not trying to be negative in telling you what hp kind of company hp is and where their revenue comes from.

    Come on... you said it yourself, "Thats what we are here for.. to teach each other"

    dont be so upset dude. your taking this ****** stuff way too personally.
    sarcasm.. HP very well maybe the worlds # 1. it depends on what sources you quote and i quote that will carry on for longer than i care to participate. so... i tried to get away from "who's #1" and to the point with "they maybe 3rd"... and you took it back there again.
    Look... your missing my point..
    I dont care if HP makes $$$ on printers and cartridges. hell, I met a kid that was the great grandson of the man who invented carpet. We were on Defuski Island off of hilton head island.. years ago. Loaded, the whole family never had to do a thing. there is a ton of ways to make $$$, that does not ensure you will be a forerunner in future technologies. I care about what they are doing to mold the our futures.. and more importantly.. their reason for spending 1.2 billion on Palm. HP is much, much more than printers.
    "SUPER COMPUTER "... what is this the 1980's? no super computer needed. open source SUPAR webOS! Integrated Cloud services
    direct from HP Labs :

    "The technologies underlying ubiquitous computing are beginning to
    move from research laboratories into the real world. As they do so,
    the value to users of this new paradigm will begin to emerge. We
    believe that one potentially valuable area of application of
    ubiquitous computing will be in the delivery of Situated Digital
    Experiences, i.e. compelling consumer experiences delivered by
    digital technology that reflect and enhance their physical locations.
    In this paper, we outline a research program in the design of such
    experiences and describe two case studies involving experimental
    deployments. We also describe a provisional model of consumer
    experience that is emerging from the research and indicate some
    aspects of future work."
    I dont want to disclose any more information with out exposing to much of HP research and work. All i can say is these trivial debates about APPLE and GOOGLE vs WEBOS smartphones will be a "cute" little window in time... we will look back and realize how this was the start of a huge shift in technology... and how it was the beginning of a major change in how we conduct our day to day lives.
    Class dismissed ;-)
    Last edited by clutch1222; 06/27/2010 at 11:23 AM. Reason: add
  2.    #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Out of curiosity, what's so "closed" about a Mac?
    Nice trap. Why dont you skip the dance and right to the " " ing.
    Why dont you tell us what is open about Mac? Then go on to explain why , if others who know how to build pc's with the same or better quality hardware.. should stop and start spending twice as m uch to buy a mac?

    I know i must be missing something.. so this is your chance to explain something to me that has been a mystery for years. If it makes sense...I will thank you for enlightening me... and greatly appreciate it my fellow PRECENTRAL FORUMS MEMBER.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    Nice trap. Why dont you skip the dance and right to the " " ing.
    Why dont you tell us what is open about Mac? Then go on to explain why , if others who know how to build pc's with the same or better quality hardware.. should stop and start spending twice as m uch to buy a mac?

    I know i must be missing something.. so this is your chance to explain something to me that has been a mystery for years. If it makes sense...I will thank you for enlightening me... and greatly appreciate it my fellow PRECENTRAL FORUMS MEMBER.
    Way to avoid my question. You're the one that made the accusation, so I expect you to be able to answer.
  4.    #124  
    This is not off topic. MAC ia apple... and Apple should fear HP so... i will entertain. ( hard to stay on topic sometimes)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    Nice trap. Why dont you skip the dance and right to the " " ing.
    Why dont you tell us what is open about Mac? Then go on to explain why , if others who know how to build pc's with the same or better quality hardware.. should stop and start spending twice as m uch to buy a mac?

    I know i must be missing something.. so this is your chance to explain something to me that has been a mystery for years. If it makes sense...I will thank you for enlightening me... and greatly appreciate it my fellow PRECENTRAL FORUMS MEMBER.

    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Way to avoid my question. You're the one that made the accusation, so I expect you to be able to answer.
    FAIL :

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreDREb13 View Post
    I'm pretty sure people don't spend $1300 on a 13" Macbook because it's an experience that "just works"... I mean, I'm just saying, it's not JUST that people recognize the "experience." Honestly, I'm not sure there's any justification for making people pay such gratuitous amounts of money for something that "just works" due to loads of restrictions and nothing but a closed environment.

    I mean, I recently built a PC, and just for laughs I went onto Apple.com to see the price of a Mac with the same exact specs. $740 for mine, $4000 for the Mac. If that's the price for a user experience that "just works," then you can count me out.
    Out of curiosity, what's so "closed" about a Mac?

    So back to my original question.... School me... Please.
    Last edited by clutch1222; 06/27/2010 at 03:55 AM. Reason: add
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    This is not off topic. MAC ia apple... and Apple should fear HP so... i will entertain. ( hard to stay on topic sometimes)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    Nice trap. Why dont you skip the dance and right to the " " ing.
    Why dont you tell us what is open about Mac? Then go on to explain why , if others who know how to build pc's with the same or better quality hardware.. should stop and start spending twice as m uch to buy a mac?

    I know i must be missing something.. so this is your chance to explain something to me that has been a mystery for years. If it makes sense...I will thank you for enlightening me... and greatly appreciate it my fellow PRECENTRAL FORUMS MEMBER.



    FAIL :

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreDREb13 View Post
    I'm pretty sure people don't spend $1300 on a 13" Macbook because it's an experience that "just works"... I mean, I'm just saying, it's not JUST that people recognize the "experience." Honestly, I'm not sure there's any justification for making people pay such gratuitous amounts of money for something that "just works" due to loads of restrictions and nothing but a closed environment.

    I mean, I recently built a PC, and just for laughs I went onto Apple.com to see the price of a Mac with the same exact specs. $740 for mine, $4000 for the Mac. If that's the price for a user experience that "just works," then you can count me out.
    Out of curiosity, what's so "closed" about a Mac?

    So back to my original question.... School me... Please.
    For starters, Apple allows you to AND encourages dual-booting Windows via bootcamp; comes with all the drivers that you need, etc. I consider that to be pretty open.

    Again, I have no idea how you can consider Apple's machines "locked down".. it's not as if you can't use third party peripherals, load a different OS, etc.
  6.    #126  
    @ Barkeja
    Thank You. Sincerley.
    That looks similar to me dual booting Windows XXX with any other O.S., But my next question is does Apple allow you to AND encourages dual-booting with any other O.S.? or do they only support and encourage dual booting windows?

    you didnt answer my second question. This one really confuses me.
    "Then go on to explain why , if others who know how to build pc's with the same or better quality hardware.. or can buy quality PC at much lower prices , why should stop and start spending twice as much to buy mac hardware?"
    I may be missing something here. This is your chance to explain to all of us ignorant - non - apple / mac users... is MAC O.S. worth upto $1000 compared to lets say win 7? ... because that is what some mac laptops/ desktops cost over the same hardware PC.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by dreDREb13 View Post
    I'm pretty sure people don't spend $1300 on a 13" Macbook because it's an experience that "just works"... I mean, I'm just saying, it's not JUST that people recognize the "experience." Honestly, I'm not sure there's any justification for making people pay such gratuitous amounts of money for something that "just works" due to loads of restrictions and nothing but a closed environment.

    I mean, I recently built a PC, and just for laughs I went onto Apple.com to see the price of a Mac with the same exact specs. $740 for mine, $4000 for the Mac. If that's the price for a user experience that "just works," then you can count me out.
    Why does the:

    Ford Mustang GT
    412 hp
    $30,495
    0–60 mph: 4.6 sec
    -mile: 13.2 sec @ 109 mph


    cost less than the:

    BMW M3
    414 hp
    $59,275
    0–60 mph: 4.1 sec
    -mile: 12.6 sec @ 113 mph


    See how the Ford and BMW have just about similar specs? But, yet the BMW is almost twice the price of the Ford. It's all about branding.

    Now, you can set here and debate and complain about how the BMW and Apple are overprice. BUT, do you think they CARE?? No, they don't. They both seem to be doing an incredible job selling their products. Just like the companies that sell cheap crap do a good job selling their products to YOU.

    Oh, the info on the cars came from here:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features...epower-feature

    Wouldn't want to give out inaccurate info, like so many do on here when it comes to Apple.
  8. #128  
    Wrong.

    They may have similiar 0-60 or 1/4 mile times but that's where the similiarities end. The M3 will most likely outperform on the track right out of the box and if you drive the car on a twisty back road on for fun, the M3 will also be the canyon carver you want and also enjoy in. You're also paying for the technology that will give a better experience such as paddle shifters and a more tuned traction control, etc. Again if you want the same overall performace, you'll be ordering part or getting work thru Steeda and end up paying the same amount to match. And also in details such as the leather trim and fit and finish.

    I love Mustangs... gone thru three of them since I was a kid. But seriously... The M3 is in another league. it's not all about branding.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Why does the:

    Ford Mustang GT
    412 hp
    $30,495
    0–60 mph: 4.6 sec
    -mile: 13.2 sec @ 109 mph


    cost less than the:

    BMW M3
    414 hp
    $59,275
    0–60 mph: 4.1 sec
    -mile: 12.6 sec @ 113 mph


    See how the Ford and BMW have just about similar specs? But, yet the BMW is almost twice the price of the Ford. It's all about branding.

    Now, you can set here and debate and complain about how the BMW and Apple are overprice. BUT, do you think they CARE?? No, they don't. They both seem to be doing an incredible job selling their products. Just like the companies that sell cheap crap do a good job selling their products to YOU.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    Wrong.

    They may have similiar 0-60 or 1/4 mile times but that's where the similiarities end. The M3 will most likely outperform on the track right out of the box and if you drive the car on a twisty back road on for fun, the M3 will also be the canyon carver you want and also enjoy in. You're also paying for the technology that will give a better experience such as paddle shifters and a more tuned traction control, etc. Again if you want the same overall performace, you'll be ordering part or getting work thru Steeda and end up paying the same amount to match. And also in details such as the leather trim and fit and finish.

    I love Mustangs... gone thru three of them since I was a kid. But seriously... The M3 is in another league. it's not all about branding.
    Ah, very good point. And I am very well aware of that. BUT, the average person doesn't think like that. They will look at cost only.

    Just like the average PC user:

    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed OS.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed hardware with higher quality material.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER resale value on eBay.
    IGNORES the fact that you don't have to put up with viruses and malware with the Mac OS.
    IGNORES that the hardware and software just works seamlessly together.

    And I can go on and on. But, people again will ignore all of the above about the Mac and just spout off that they can get better RAW component prices with a PC, totally ignoring what makes a Mac better that is hard to quantify.

    It's no accident that the media ALWAYS compares Apple to BMW in their respective markets.

    Just like BMW is a step above the average car, Apple is a step above the typical PC.
    Last edited by SoFly; 06/27/2010 at 01:43 PM.
  10. #130  
    For apple, their ingredient in their koolaid has always been ease-of-use from the moment you turn it on. They stick to their standards and try to make a solid product out of the box and stick with the ease-of-use philosophy.

    They got that rep in the Mac days over Windows and even though you try to convince people that Windows is much improved and the lines between are blurrier, it doesnt matter. They're gone. If they can afford to pay for that experience they get then they pay it.

    Isn't there a name brand pair of jeans or particular manufacturer that you'll just swear by and will not go elsewhere even if it means a few bucks more?

    They dont care about haters view on Jobs or care about the "ecosystem"... Their product may be limiting to YOU but if it does everything THEY want then they are not limited. they are happy with their experience with Apple and if you can afford it, why go elsewhere.

    And if they have a friend that wants a computer or phone, what else are they going to recommend. That's loyalty.

    Just like people and their cars... people love their Accords and for the life of me I can't convince them that the Ford is not the same company it once was and the Fusion is a great alternative and they'll pay more for those cars but even you and I know that most likely they will probably be happy with their cars and not have any issues. Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreDREb13 View Post
    I'm pretty sure people don't spend $1300 on a 13" Macbook because it's an experience that "just works"... I mean, I'm just saying, it's not JUST that people recognize the "experience." Honestly, I'm not sure there's any justification for making people pay such gratuitous amounts of money for something that "just works" due to loads of restrictions and nothing but a closed environment.

    I mean, I recently built a PC, and just for laughs I went onto Apple.com to see the price of a Mac with the same exact specs. $740 for mine, $4000 for the Mac. If that's the price for a user experience that "just works," then you can count me out.
  11. #131  
    I dunno... I think that because Apple computers have in the past has been a small segment of the computer market, I think that for most people... the first computer they have ever touched was a Windows box and for many the computer you get use to is the one you stick with and a good percentage will stick with what your comfortable with getting someone to jump is difficult.

    Better or not... it's the one they stick with until something happens that they are fed up or willing to move.

    For me, been a windows guy forever and comfortable with it and don't want to try a new OS... I'm lost everytime my daughter uses the Mac at the apple store playing Star Wars Lego (WOW, just thought that is ingenious of them to put those kids stations in there stores!)

    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Ah, very good point. And I am very well aware of that. BUT, the average person doesn't think like that. They will look at cost only.

    Just like the average PC user:

    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed OS.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed hardware with higher quality material.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER resale value on eBay.
    IGNORES the fact that you don't have to put up with viruses and malware with the Mac OS.
    IGNORES that the hardware and software just works seamlessly together.

    And I can go on and on. But, people again will ignore all of the above about the Mac and just spout off that they can get better RAW component prices with a PC, totally ignoring what makes a Mac better that is hard to quantify.

    It's no accident that the media ALWAYS compares Apple to BMW in their respective markets.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    I dunno... I think that because Apple computers have in the past has been a small segment of the computer market, I think that for most people... the first computer they have ever touched was a Windows box and for many the computer you get use to is the one you stick with and a good percentage will stick with what your comfortable with getting someone to jump is difficult.

    Better or not... it's the one they stick with until something happens that they are fed up or willing to move.

    For me, been a windows guy forever and comfortable with it and don't want to try a new OS... I'm lost everytime my daughter uses the Mac at the apple store playing Star Wars Lego (WOW, just thought that is ingenious of them to put those kids stations in there stores!)
    That's all fine and dandy. But, you still can't ignore the fact that people want to only use cost of components and totally ignore everything else that makes a Mac a Mac when comparing to PCs.
  13. #133  
    No comment

    I haven't experienced a Mac firsthand or had enough seat time to say the MAC is superior in those points you made and thats its worth paying the premium. I've heard of better security and may agree with resale... But I'm just a guy that's happy getting what I need with a $400 PC and ok with throwing it in the trash went it comes time to get a new one

    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    That's all fine and dandy. But, you still can't ignore the fact that people want to only use cost of components and totally ignore everything else that makes a Mac a Mac when comparing to PCs.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    @ Barkeja
    Thank You. Sincerley.
    That looks similar to me dual booting Windows XXX with any other O.S., But my next question is does Apple allow you to AND encourages dual-booting with any other O.S.? or do they only support and encourage dual booting windows?

    you didnt answer my second question. This one really confuses me.
    "Then go on to explain why , if others who know how to build pc's with the same or better quality hardware.. or can buy quality PC at much lower prices , why should stop and start spending twice as much to buy mac hardware?"
    I may be missing something here. This is your chance to explain to all of us ignorant - non - apple / mac users... is MAC O.S. worth upto $1000 compared to lets say win 7? ... because that is what some mac laptops/ desktops cost over the same hardware PC.
    Yes, you can dualboot any OS using bootcamp.

    And your second question is only a matter of opinion. Personally, I've yet to find any computer hardware/manufacture that is above Apple. And I'm a relatively new Mac-lover (2008). Even Alienware looks cheap, aesthetically unpleasing unless you're 17 and it's more expensive than MacBook Pro's.
  15.    #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Way to avoid my question. You're the one that made the accusation, so I expect you to be able to answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    That's all fine and dandy. But, you still can't ignore the fact that people want to only use cost of components and totally ignore everything else that makes a Mac a Mac when comparing to PCs.
    Yes... I can not justify the extra cost of mac versus the perfomance it provides. Exactly.

    Apple makes great computers but they also make great 'hype'..

    Amazon.com: Apple Mac Pro MB871LL/A Desktop: Computer & Accessories
    tag=macreviewzone-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B000R84UQ0

    $2400... really ?
    # Next-generation system architecture and 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon 3500 "Nehalem" processor
    # 3 GB RAM (expandable up to 16 GB), 640 GB hard drive (expandable to 4 TB), 18x Double-Layer SuperDrive
    # NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 with 512MB of GDDR3 memory with one Mini DisplayPort, and one dual-link DVI port
    # Five USB 2.0, four FireWire 800, Gigabit Ethernet, optical digital audio input and output, Bluetooth 2.1+EDR

    MAC OS - basicly unix BSD with an apple logo
    The FreeBSD Project
    its called free BSD...

    APPLE - Masters of HYPE. my opinion. People by into that... I do not.
    Its personal preference. If you dont mind paying top $$$ and getting less performance out of your hardware... by all means do.
    IT does not matter how much I make. When I spend... I research... and get the best bang for my buck. Assumptions that people that do not buy into apple Hype in quality... are to poor to afford it is pompous.... Period.
    We can agree to disagree... thats what makes forums like this interesting. I am still waiting for a reason to spend upto $1000 more to enjoy MAC os experience.... when Win 7, free bsd, fill in the blank OS - dual booted if need be, gets me more for less.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    Yes... I can not justify the extra cost of mac versus the perfomance it provides. Exactly.

    Apple makes great computers but they also make great 'hype'..

    Amazon.com: Apple Mac Pro MB871LL/A Desktop: Computer & Accessories
    tag=macreviewzone-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B000R84UQ0

    $2400... really ?
    # Next-generation system architecture and 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon 3500 "Nehalem" processor
    # 3 GB RAM (expandable up to 16 GB), 640 GB hard drive (expandable to 4 TB), 18x Double-Layer SuperDrive
    # NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 with 512MB of GDDR3 memory with one Mini DisplayPort, and one dual-link DVI port
    # Five USB 2.0, four FireWire 800, Gigabit Ethernet, optical digital audio input and output, Bluetooth 2.1+EDR

    MAC OS - basicly unix BSD with an apple logo
    The FreeBSD Project
    its called free BSD...

    APPLE - Masters of HYPE. my opinion. People by into that... I do not.
    Its personal preference. If you dont mind paying top $$$ and getting less performance out of your hardware... by all means do.
    IT does not matter how much I make. When I spend... I research... and get the best bang for my buck. Assumptions that people that do not buy into apple Hype in quality... are to poor to afford it is pompous.... Period.
    We can agree to disagree... thats what makes forums like this interesting. I am still waiting for a reason to spend upto $1000 more to enjoy MAC os experience.... when Win 7, free bsd, fill in the blank OS - dual booted if need be, gets me more for less.
    Don't forget, you're also paying to use software (OS X); can't use it on any other hardware … legally anyways. And the seamless experience you get from OS X and their hardware doesn't touch what you'll find with Windows, Linux, etc.

    But anyways, it's all personal preference. I won't say never, but I don't see myself going back to PC anytime in the near future. I appreciate the quality and wonderful experience that Apple provides.

    And to say OS X is basically FreeBSD with an Apple logo is just absurd.
  17. dreDREb13's Avatar
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    #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Ah, very good point. And I am very well aware of that. BUT, the average person doesn't think like that. They will look at cost only.

    Just like the average PC user:

    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed OS.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed hardware with higher quality material.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER resale value on eBay.
    IGNORES the fact that you don't have to put up with viruses and malware with the Mac OS.
    IGNORES that the hardware and software just works seamlessly together.

    And I can go on and on. But, people again will ignore all of the above about the Mac and just spout off that they can get better RAW component prices with a PC, totally ignoring what makes a Mac better that is hard to quantify.

    It's no accident that the media ALWAYS compares Apple to BMW in their respective markets.

    Just like BMW is a step above the average car, Apple is a step above the typical PC.
    I wouldn't say Snow Leopard is a better designed OS... I mean, it's *****-proof, sure, but Windows 7 is a great OS that's possibly one of the best made for Windows, period.

    And I'm not denying Macs aren't made well. But it's just that I don't think anything constitutes that sort of price point. My laptop has lasted me three years and still works just fine like it did right out of the box. The difference between a Mac and PC is that a PC require some maintenance every now and then, while a Mac can just keep on chugging. Sure, I'll give it to Apple that that's a good thing that they can withstand so much, but that's why PC-lovers stick to their PCs: They know how to keep them going, so why pay more?

    And viruses aren't really a problem, actually. It's incredibly easy to avoid any viruses. And sure, it's possible you could click on the wrong link or something, but anti-viruses (and free ones, at that) do an incredible job of just aborting the connection immediately before anything can even happen.

    And I'm still not sure about that analogy... Sure, in terms of aesthetics, BMW is great, as is Apple... And they'll both last you a while, but how does it prove anything? I don't know, I guess I can't put it into words properly, right now.

    And as for the closed ecosystem for Macs, maybe I don't mean Macs, specifically, but Apple, in general.
  18. #138  
    There are advantages to having vertical integration of a product and can reflect in the overall experience.

    Seriously, have you had any significant seat time with a Mac Book Pro and run some tasks through it? Don't you see where vertical integration has it's positives?



    Quote Originally Posted by clutch1222 View Post
    Yes... I can not justify the extra cost of mac versus the perfomance it provides. Exactly.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Ah, very good point. And I am very well aware of that. BUT, the average person doesn't think like that. They will look at cost only.

    Just like the average PC user:

    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed OS.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER designed hardware with higher quality material.
    IGNORES Apple's BETTER resale value on eBay.
    IGNORES the fact that you don't have to put up with viruses and malware with the Mac OS.
    IGNORES....
    What do you call it when one "ignores" something that is only individually perceptible?

    If I don't care for foie gras, am I ignoring how great it is or am I being true to my taste buds?

    The Apple snobbishness in here is thick, thick, thick....
  20. dreDREb13's Avatar
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    21 Posts
    Global Posts
    28 Global Posts
    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    That's all fine and dandy. But, you still can't ignore the fact that people want to only use cost of components and totally ignore everything else that makes a Mac a Mac when comparing to PCs.
    I'm just arguing that I don't think the price of a Mac warrants this experience. Plus, I just don't like how Apple is the only controller of this thing. You have to rely on them to make it better, not just any person. That's what I'm not a fan of Apple. They seem to think homebrew and open source is a hindrance, rather than a good thing.

    I understand you're going to need SOME closed doors, but to completely lock down app stores and being against jailbreaking and calling it an infringement of their copyright is a bit too far... I mean, why not be happy people are tinkering with what they've created and let be what may happen?

    Hey, for some, this is okay. Obviously, not everyone cares about the way Apple runs things, but a lot of people do, as well. And with Google making a lot of products (for free, mind you) that are fantastic AND pretty much open to do whatever, that's where I think we should look to.
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