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  1. #161  
    I actually have both the iPhone and the Pre. While the iPhone does things faster and has more apps, I find the webOS notifications much better and the webOS has TRUE multi-tasking. Many apps on the iPhone do not multi-task while all webOS apps do. I also don't like the fact that I am a SLAVE to iTunes. I have to constantly sync my iPhone anytime I want to back it up or transfer media. To sum it up, they both are really good devices. If the Pre had more speed (I am using the F105 Thunderbird Kernal) & better hardware, I think I would prefer the Pre.
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberiian View Post
    You are making my point. Itunes isn't the best media cataloging program out there, but it continues to lead, merely because it isn't easy to extract your music. Itunes encrypts your filemnames, making the migration away from it frustrating-near impossible for most people.
    But people used them in the first place because that's what iPods worked with. I don't think iTunes is the best, but it works with both my Pre and my iPod Touch that my wife uses. We got playlists galore. I could start fresh on a new program, but just haven't bothtered.

    Palm HAD to offer the sync function to the pre, in order to break the "i-spell" which has so many of the general populus entranced. It wasn't because palm chose not to continue the itunes sync that it was abandoned, it was because Apple saw the threat Webos was to it's lacking OS and blocked it -and essentially consumer option - from being compatible with other devices. Seems like fear to me.
    Interesting. We had this debate some time ago, and I believe that we established that Blackberry used the public API sync that Apple provides for anyone's usage to allow Blackberries to sync with their media sync software. That would seem to undermine your "they fear WebOS" theory. Also, consider that Android has been able to prosper just fine without any native sync solution at all, so Palm didn't "have" to implement it the way they did.

    Remember the Apple tv commercial in the early 90's where the hammer was thrown at the giant screen, symbolizing Apple's "liberating" of the PC user? Hasn't the philosophy come full circle!?!? I was an Apple ****** from my first computer the IIe through my last g4 tower. I FULLY agree that Apple makes its OS super simple to use, but at a price which I'm not willing to pay. I just see way too much upside to WebOS, compared to Microsoft, Apple, and the like.
    I...agree for the most part. I have used many Apple products, but the only one I have ever owned was an iPod, and if the Zune HD existed when I was shopping, I would've bought that instead.

    I actually like a lot about almost all of their products, but neither the iPhone nor iPad do enough that my Pre or HP Mini 311 (Hey, I'm a Hewlett Packard fanb--!) don't already do at much smaller and more convenient prices.
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    #163  
    I'll give the iPhone credit where credit is due - its a great device with a huge number of excellent apps. And HP need to spend a lot of effort growing the developer community to grow WebOS (opeing some APIs might help HP hint hint )

    That been said though, to jailbreak the iPhone so you can truely customize it or have "unapproved" apps is just as "complicated" as homebrewing on a WebOS device - which is to say neither are complicated at all. Both have one PITA step involved.

    The Pre has a PITA code to enter once before installing Preware but that's it - after that you can install anything with Preware w/o ever going into Developer mode again. You could close developer mode I guess so technically you would enter the code twice.

    The iPhone may not have a PITA code to enter to start the jailbreaking process, but every time a new release comes out you have to re-jailbreak and install Cydia or Installer again.

    To me its trading one PITA step in the beginning (WebOS) for another PITA step every time an update comes out (iPhone) i.e. 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

    Both OS' have their advantages and in the end it boils down to the consumer's preference as to what they want. Of course if Palm knew anything about marketing maybe more people might even know about WebOS

    For me its a no-brainer - I prefer the way WebOS works and I don't want to be told what apps I can and cannot install, even if the shear number of quality apps is there.
    Last edited by solarus; 07/27/2010 at 01:20 PM.
  4. #164  
    An additional consideration for some WebOS users, myself included, is that you have to re-homebrew in the event of doctoring and replacing your Pre with a refurb. I have done both many, many times. While I appreciate the way that Preware startup has drastically accelerated, it's still tedious to homebrew in the beginning as you said.

    But nowhere near as tedious as using a stock Pre at 500 after you've ever overclocked. There's no going back. So....laaaaaaaaaaaaaggy.
  5. solarus's Avatar
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    #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    An additional consideration for some WebOS users, myself included, is that you have to re-homebrew in the event of doctoring and replacing your Pre with a refurb. I have done both many, many times. While I appreciate the way that Preware startup has drastically accelerated, it's still tedious to homebrew in the beginning as you said.
    Yeah but wouldn't you have to do that on any Android or iPhone that was doctored back to stock. But like you said - you can get away with stock on an iPhone or Android - not on a Pre. I think what you're really saying is that the quality issues of the Pre hardware make Homebrewing more complicated, not the homebrewing process itself.

    But nowhere near as tedious as using a stock Pre at 500 after you've ever overclocked. There's no going back. So....laaaaaaaaaaaaaggy.
    Sooooooooooooooooooooo truuuuuuue. I typed that on my stock 500 btw
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Yeah but wouldn't you have to do that on any Android or iPhone that was doctored back to stock. But like you said - you can get away with stock on an iPhone or Android - not on a Pre. I think what you're really saying is that the quality issues of the Pre hardware make Homebrewing more complicated, not the homebrewing process itself.
    EDIT: Nevermind... I basically agree with your premise!
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Yeah but wouldn't you have to do that on any Android or iPhone that was doctored back to stock. But like you said - you can get away with stock on an iPhone or Android - not on a Pre. I think what you're really saying is that the quality issues of the Pre hardware make Homebrewing more complicated, not the homebrewing process itself.
    Yeah. And let me be clear...I don't think homebrewing is more complicated than any other form of jailbreaking or modding. I would say it's the friendliest due largely to the community of this very site. I was here in the tail end of the Treo years, and it's never been anything but approachable and casually helpful to me. XDA developers has a certain techy coldness to it, and I don't really mess around with jailbreaking at all.

    But yeah, a stock experience that slow and laggy is almost as much of a turn-off as the bad ads.
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Yeah but wouldn't you have to do that on any Android or iPhone that was doctored back to stock...
    Of course you would. I really don't think a real comparison is his goal here, so why bring up trivialities such as that?
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    An additional consideration for some WebOS users, myself included, is that you have to re-homebrew in the event of doctoring and replacing your Pre with a refurb...
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Yeah. And let me be clear...I don't think homebrewing is more complicated than any other form of jailbreaking or modding. I would say it's the friendliest due largely to the community of this very site..
    Then why is it an "additional consideration"? That's like comparing to cars and saying "an additional consideration for the Chevy is that you have to put gas and oil in it." If the Ford needs gas and oil too, it's not an "additional consideration".

    As a matter of fact, I'd say just the opposite is the case with the Pre. Maybe it would be better stated that "an additional advantage with the Pre over the other jailbreakable phones is that the Pre is the easiest to jailbreak after it's been reverted back to factory settings".
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Then why is it an "additional consideration"? That's like comparing to cars and saying "an additional consideration for the Chevy is that you have to put gas and oil in it." If the Ford needs gas and oil too, it's not an "additional consideration".

    As a matter of fact, I'd say just the opposite is the case with the Pre. Maybe it would be better stated that "an additional advantage with the Pre over the other jailbreakable phones is that the Pre is the easiest to jailbreak after it's been reverted back to factory settings".
    I think the point he was trying to make is that with the Pre...

    There is a the huge disadvantage in that the Pre needs to be "jailbroken" and patched to hell to be comparable to the stock offerings of other OS's?

    Add into the fact that the Pre has a significantly higher than normal failure/replacement rate...
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    I think the point he was trying to make is that with the Pre...

    There is a the huge disadvantage in that the Pre needs to be "jailbroken" and patched to hell to be comparable to the stock offerings of other OS's?

    Add into the fact that the Pre has a significantly higher than normal failure/replacement rate...
    Thanks for actually reading what I wrote. For the benefit of those who didn't bother:

    An additional consideration for some WebOS users, myself included...
    That would be those folks with the Pre phones with "significantly higher than normal failure/replacement rates".
  12. #172  
    I thought that the average rate of failures was still low based on the polls from the forum users. Typically, people start visiting the forums only if a device starts acting weirdly or if it does not do what they want to do it (or how they understood it was going to do). Based on that the number of failed devices should be atypically higher in our forums compared to all subscribers. However, if I remember correctly the numbers were not that high.

    Would someone care to create a new poll?
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    I think the point he was trying to make is that with the Pre...

    There is a the huge disadvantage in that the Pre needs to be "jailbroken" and patched to hell to be comparable to the stock offerings of other OS's?
    That's what I'm talking about. What does "patched to hell" mean? I've got a lot of patches installed on mine. They don't negatively affect the phone, and they were as easy (actually, in many ways, much easier) to configure than the stock OS settings for a BlackBerry.

    So that's my point. All this nonsense about it's not intuitive, and it's complex, and wah wah wah is simply noise to make the whole process sound more difficult.

    And why the perjorative? Does one say the iPhone has to be "apped all to hell" to make it useable?

    The OSs that have it customization built in are still so difficult that most folks don't do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Add into the fact that the Pre has a significantly higher than normal failure/replacement rate...
    What's the replacement rate for the Pre? What's the "normal" replacement rate? How can you make a comparison without these two pieces of information?
  14. #175  
    Did you really read the article? Did you notice what it was about, and the numbers?

    First, the topic. It was about new owners that were planning on returning their recently purchased phones. It didn't indicate why they were returning them, only that they were returning the phone. So, this isn't an indicator of "failure rate".

    The numbers mentioned in the article is even more significant. The article says it was based on a survey of 1009 people who bought a smartphone in the past 6 months. According to everything I've read, the Palm market is less than 2%. Further, the Pre detractors insist that many of those 2% that buy Palm are buying older devices - not the Pre.
    So, using those numbers, approximately 20 of those users surveyed had bought Palm devices in the past 6 months. If we knock out say 25% of that 20 as buying older Palm devices, that leaves 15. You know what, forget that. Let's just pretend that the PreDetracers were wrong, and virtually all of the Palm devices purchased are Pres (we won't even factor in Pixi's).
    So, 2% (or 20) of those surveyed here were Pre owners. 36% of them were planning on returning their Pre. Not have returned it, but planning on returning it. That's 8 people. We don't know for sure if all 8 of them actually followed through. We don't know if some of the 8 returned them, got an Evo, realized their mistake, and went back and got the Pre. We really don't even know if those 8 users had because of failures and that they were getting a replacement. All we know is that, according to that survey, roughly 8 people that bought a Palm device in the last 6 months were planning on returning it for some reason.

    8 users plan on returning a new Palm device for some reason. Out of the hundreds of thousands of Pre owners, that is a not large enough pool to establish a pattern that the Pre is experiencing a "higher than normal" return rate.

    In short, the survey was to small statistically to give us real information abou the Pre, and was not about failure/replacement devices anyway.

    Note - I'm talking about the article here, not the survey. I'm not going to pay $1500 for the reports of the survey, and I don't think you did either.
    Last edited by hparsons; 07/28/2010 at 11:11 AM.
  15. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Did you really read the article? Did you notice what it was about, and the numbers?

    First, the topic. It was about new owners that were planning on returning their recently purchased phones. It didn't indicate why they were returning them, only that they were returning the phone. So, this isn't an indicator of "failure rate".
    I disagree. PreCentral's article goes on to mention that while the return numbers for Palm were bottom-of-the-barrel, the satisfaction ratings for Palm moved them up to the middle of the pack. Since there is average user satisfaction with the product itself, the most likely explanation for the disparity of the terrible "return likelihood" numbers is physical/mechanical failure.

    Occam's razor, y'know?

    The numbers mentioned in the article is even more significant. The article says it was based on a survey of 1009 people who bought a smartphone in the past 6 months. According to everything I've read, the Palm market is less than 2%. Further, the Pre detractors insist that many of those 2% that buy Palm are buying older devices - not the Pre.
    So, using those numbers, approximately 20 of those users surveyed had bought Palm devices in the past 6 months. If we knock out say 25% of that 20 as buying older Palm devices, that leaves 15. You know what, forget that. Let's just pretend that the PreDetracers were wrong, and virtually all of the Palm devices purchased are Pres (we won't even factor in Pixi's).
    So, 2% (or 20) of those surveyed here were Pre owners. 36% of them were planning on returning their Pre. Not have returned it, but planning on returning it. That's 8 people. We don't know for sure if all 8 of them actually followed through. We don't know if some of the 8 returned them, got an Evo, realized their mistake, and went back and got the Pre. We really don't even know if those 8 users had because of failures and that they were getting a replacement.

    In short, the survey was to small statistically to give us real information abou the Pre, and was not about failure/replacement devices anyway.
    There's nothing to indicate that they sampled exactly in proportion to marketshare, so we don't know how many WebOS users there were out of the 1009. But it's the most wide-ranging recent information available that indicates where Palm sits as far as satisfaction with WebOS as an OS and the associated devices.

    I think the statistical sample was adequate, but you don't. That's fine. Moving on...
  16. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I think the statistical sample was adequate, but you don't. That's fine. Moving on...
    I think that's cute. You misinterpret Occam's razor (what you did was offer another variable into the equation and applied that to the entire Palm sample - which is exactly the opposite of the principle of "plurality should not be posited without necessity".) Then you proclaim that the roughly 8 users in the survey are enough for you, and we should "move on".

    Of course that's "enough for you", because it validates your preconceived ideas. That's hardly an objective view.

    I can give you surveys on here that involve many more Pre users than the 8 (roughly) mentioned in that survey, but I won't, becuase I don't believe those surveys reflect the actual numbers either.

    So, I'll ask again, what is the return rate (based on something more than 1000 users, an unknown portion of which are Palm users, or even a poll on a Pre oriented site that may have extremely skewed numbers of fans) of the Pre.

    And I'll state again, unless we know those numbers, we don't know that the Pre has a "higher than normal" return rate.

    I know, I know, you don't like me picking apart small issues like this. However, your arguments seem to be so full of them, the pickings are really quite simple...

    Just sayin'
  17. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think that's cute. You misinterpret Occam's razor (what you did was offer another variable into the equation and applied that to the entire Palm sample - which is exactly the opposite of the principle of "plurality should not be posited without necessity".) Then you proclaim that the roughly 8 users in the survey are enough for you, and we should "move on".
    What Palm sample? 8 users? 80 users? No one knows. It's not "roughly" 8 or "roughly" anything.

    Of course that's "enough for you", because it validates your preconceived ideas. That's hardly an objective view.
    It doesn't validate my idea, because the idea that Palm WebOS hardware is junk is not my idea. It's quite a popular and widely-adopted notion. I happen to agree with it based on personal experience. But this survey validates a number of perceptions that have been affirmed in other surveys regarding which manufacturer has the most customer satisfaction, which are the two most popular mobile OSes at present, etc.

    Given that, I find it unlikely what it says about Palm is some anomaly.

    So, I'll ask again, what is the return rate (based on something more than 1000 users, an unknown portion of which are Palm users, or even a poll on a Pre oriented site that may have extremely skewed numbers of fans) of the Pre.

    And I'll state again, unless we know those numbers, we don't know that the Pre has a "higher than normal" return rate.
    You can only draw a conclusion from the information you have. Any poll has a margin of error and can be an outlier when set against other polls. The return rates will never be published in detail for a number of reasons, so we can only draw upon surveys like this. If you choose to dismiss them, that's on you.

    What we can see is that among a random group of WebOS owners who were relatively satisfied with the product, they are far more likely to return it than those similarly satisfied with competing manufacturers' smartphones. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that physical/mechanical failure of this particular manufacturer is the culprit, thereby leaving these users unable to keep a product that they are otherwise satisfied with.

    That, coupled with my experience and the reports I have observed from this forum, its editors, and similar reports elsewhere, leads me to believe that Palm WebOS hardware has a higher failure rate than normal. It cannot be definitively proven or disproven, as the info required to do so will never be published.

    You either believe it or don't. You believe my "prejudices" lead me to believe it. I believe yours will not allow you to believe it. And the world turns.
  18. #179  
    You are blindly biased, simply ignoring the fact, or simply completely unaware and were "lucky"... if you do not think the Pre has a high failure rate.

    I personally have gone through over 10 Pre's within my household...
    I have never even come remotely close to that type of failure rate (personally or at work). I have worked with supporting (directly/indirectly) smartphones since roughly 2000. I haven't see this type of failure rate since (ironically) the Palm Treo 600's.

    I will agree that that sample pool is too small and it is by all purposes irrelevant to the topic of failure rates.

    In talking with multiple employee's (numerous times) at both the corporate store in my area and the Sprint repair center in my area, they all state that the Pre is by far the phone they see in for replacement/repair the most.
  19. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    You are blindly biased, simply ignoring the fact, or simply completely unaware and were "lucky"... if you do not think the Pre has a high failure rate.

    I personally have gone through over 10 Pre's within my household...
    I have never even come remotely close to that type of failure rate (personally or at work). I have worked with supporting (directly/indirectly) smartphones since roughly 2000. I haven't see this type of failure rate since (ironically) the Palm Treo 600's.

    I will agree that that sample pool is too small and it is by all purposes irrelevant to the topic of failure rates.

    In talking with multiple employee's (numerous times) at both the corporate store in my area and the Sprint repair center in my area, they all state that the Pre is by far the phone they see in for replacement/repair the most.
    No amount of anecdotal evidence will convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced. This argument will never be settled one way or the other on these boards. I think the buying public settled it some time ago. That's all that really matters.
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