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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by jayhajj View Post
    I've played with friends iPhones and in stores and prefer WebOS. That said, if AT&T had a plan comparable to Sprint's Everything Data, I'd have an iPhone.

    The iPhone's ubiquity means it has apps I want that aren't on WebOS plus accessories and integration into other devices that I don't see WebOS ever having. Add more apps and some Palm-to-iPhone-dock interface and I'd prefer a WebOS phone. It would rock if said imaginary dock used the Bluetooth SPP profile so I didn't even need a physical connection to my WebOS phone.

    -Jay
    I think we're going to see more and more of things like this. Apple (or whoever is bigger at the time) will likely oppose it, but standardization of connectivity works for the consumer, and works in favor of "the little guys". The big dogs would prefer that there be no standardization, thus enabling them to use their momentum.

    I was very pleased to see mobile phones adapt micro-USB as a standard. I hope to see more moves like that. BT SPP profile would be an excellent one.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    ...
    That being said, having the most awesome Z feature isn't compelling enough when other platforms have the best ABCDEFGHIJK features.....
    That's the issue here. That's the way you see things, but that doesn't make it so. Having the most awesome Z feature might be compelling enough over other platforms best "ABCDEFGHIJK features" (even though I think again, you are exaggerating for effect).

    If Z feature is important to a particular user, and ABCDEFGHIJK is not, then that is compelling.

    And you may say Palm isn't "even in the discussion", yet you're right here discussing them. Ooops.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Ahhh, OK, so the part where you talked about having to scroll through titles wasn't an exaggeration? The part about having to retype the code to disable dev mode (when, in fact, most people don't need to disable it, and those that do can simply click an icon) - none of those are exaggerations? I mean, they're not true. They either are blatently false, or they ignore much simpler methods, so what do you call them - creative licenses?
    How about C) A mistake which I already accepted your correction to, but one that does not change my point it is the final of a series of steps that makes homebrewing unintuitive?

    You seem to agree when you say "These things are 'non-intuitive' because the nature of extreme customization is very non-intuitive."

    So adding an icon adds complexity? I'll grant you that is techinically correct, but such an obvious exaggeration.
    Adding a step adds complexity in the most objective meaning of the word. All other things equal, a 2-step procedure is simpler than a 4-step procedure. As you say later in this post "Any extra thing, even if it's changing the color, adds that type of complexity. It goes without saying."

    Shouldn't you be thanking my post for asserting what you think?

    Pre Defense Force Captain... Uh-huh, you do sound like you have "no dog in the fight" (that was sarcasm). You appoint me "captain" of a non-entity, and you have "no dog in any fight". Well, I'm certainly convinced.
    And you say I think a device that I do not own and has repeatedly stated I do not want to own is my "love toy". I rise or descend (in this particular case) to the level of discourse offered.

    Anyway...it's always fun, Herb.
    Last edited by mikah912; 07/27/2010 at 10:20 AM.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    That's the issue here. That's the way you see things, but that doesn't make it so. Having the most awesome Z feature might be compelling enough over other platforms best "ABCDEFGHIJK features" (even though I think again, you are exaggerating for effect).
    And the above is all bollocks, in my opinion. And the vast majority of posts around here are someone else's opinion. Is this really necessary to state or do we have a bunch of people who've never had a disagreement checking this thread out today?

    And you may say Palm isn't "even in the discussion", yet you're right here discussing them. Ooops.
    Oh my word. You got me, buddy. Clearly, my posts are the discussion I was referring to. That Herbie's a sharp one, indeed...
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    How about C) A mistake which I already accepted your correction to, but one that does not change my point it is the final of a series of steps that makes homebrewing unintuitive?
    And I ask again, if it didn't change your point, then why did you include it in the discussion? I know the answer, or at least I suspect I know the answer. Your desire to make the process sound as complicated as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Adding a step adds complexity in the most objective meaning of the word. All other things equal, a 2-step procedure is simpler than a 4-step procedure. As you say later in this post "Any extra thing, even if it's changing the color, adds that type of complexity. It goes without saying."

    Shouldn't you be thanking my post for asserting what you think?
    Not at all. As I've stated, and you seem to have a hard time understanding, while what you are saying it technicall true, the implication you are making is not.

    Yes, adding an icon adds to the complexity. However, it's not overly complex to press that icon. That extra step is very minor.

    The bigger point though is the exaggeration that one must re-enter the dev mode code. Again, you are attempting to make a very simple process sound complex.

    It's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    And you say I think a device that I do not own and has repeatedly stated I do not want to own is my "love toy". I rise or descend (in this particular case) to the level of discourse offered.
    ...
    Is it somehow your assertion that you can't love (or desire) something you don't own? Your posts would seem to indicate differently. At a minimum, you seemed pretty disenchanted with what you do own. I'm a pragmatist. If I disliked something that badly, I'd move on.

    Just sayin'
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    ...
    Oh my word. You got me, buddy. Clearly, my posts are the discussion I was referring to. That Herbie's a sharp one, indeed...
    Huh?? So, your posts are the ones you're referring to, in which Palm isn't a part of the discussion.

    Really, Palm isn't even in the discussion. You sure seem to spend a lot of time discussing something that isn't even in the discussion.

    You're right, I find that confusing.
  7. #147  
    Lessee here.

    Harp on tiny facet of larger argument to create irrelevant tangent? Check.
    Bring up personal nonsense about liking purchases and love toys to bait opponent? Check.
    Respond by regurgitating a phrase or the entire format of opponent's post in sadly unsuccessful attempt to be clever? Check.

    HP (Should I really call you anything else with your undying jingoism?) you're as dependable as they come, my friend. Have an awesome lunch and day.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    If you think "stock" means "unfinished", it's no wonder why you think it's intuitive to seek out and enter a code, reset, download an app on your desktop, connect your cable, install some stuff, start up another app, and remember to enter the code again so you can get out of developer mode lest iTunes sync not work.

    And of course once all of this is done, no one ever has any issues or has to doctor again...which involves another desktop app. Yeah.
    I'm starting to really believe that everything you know about webos is hearsay. I don't believe that you have ever had a pre/pixi. If connecting your cable, or starting apps is really that difficult, perhaps a "jitterbug" phone would be best suited for you. Oh, and as far as itunes goes, if that is the type of proprietary crap you choose to use, you SHOULD keep your iphone, because apparently you would rather trade independance and freedom for confined safety.
  9. #149  
    A few opinions (of mine) on perspective of the current points being made.

    1. iTunes - It's hard to discount the use/syncing with iTunes for some users. Some people have hundereds of hours invested in configuring, creating playlists, etc. for iTunes. Like it or not, it is the single biggest and most popular music management software on the market.

    2. Homebrew/modding/Preware - Preware is easily the most user accessible patching/modding/installer for any smartphone. It requires a very low entry point to begin modifying anything. Having said that... I do not feel that this community (as great as it is) gets Palm "off the hook" for all of the shortcomings for the Pre/webOS (be it hardware or software). As most know... it's very unlikely that 90%+ of general consumers ever engage in homebrew/modding. It's only fair to judge the manufacturers and OS developers on what they actually put out to the general consumer. These conversations on boards like these do not represent the average consumer nor the manner in which the average consumer can/will utilize their phone.

    EDIT: Spellcheck!
    Last edited by gmanvbva; 07/27/2010 at 12:35 PM.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Lessee here.

    Harp on tiny facet of larger argument to create irrelevant tangent? Check.
    You say they're "irrelevant", yet you used them. I'll ask again (for the third time), why do you use irrelevant points to make your case?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Bring up personal nonsense about liking purchases and love toys to bait opponent? Check.
    If it was bait, guess you bit. I didn't really feel it was all that "personal". You do seem quite captivated by the device you don't use, and very disappointed with the one you do use. I really would flip things around were I in the same position.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Respond by regurgitating a phrase or the entire format of opponent's post in sadly unsuccessful attempt to be clever? Check.
    Sort of in my nature. When someone with absolutely no qualification to do so tells others that something is "enough" just because said person doesn't like it... yeah, I tend to respond accordingly (but, I'll give you this, your use of the word "Gah" was very good).

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    HP (Should I really call you anything else with your undying jingoism?) you're as dependable as they come, my friend. Have an awesome lunch and day.
    Yet you seem to have quite a few different names. BTW, I don't think you really know what the word "jingoism" means... unless you now think Palm or HP are a nation somewhee...

    Just sayin'
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberiian View Post
    I'm starting to really believe that everything you know about webos is hearsay. I don't believe that you have ever had a pre/pixi. If connecting your cable, or starting apps is really that difficult, perhaps a "jitterbug" phone would be best suited for you. Oh, and as far as itunes goes, if that is the type of proprietary crap you choose to use, you SHOULD keep your iphone, because apparently you would rather trade independance and freedom for confined safety.
    Hey look ...yet another person who completely ignored that I said that all homebrewing, jailbreaking, and ROM modding is unintuitive. That applies to all platforms.

    You're so busy graduating from Pre Defense Force's rookie academy that you haven't stopped to realize that I have repeatedly said I prefer WebOS and Android over iPhone, in part, for precisely the freedom-related reason you cite above.

    The point is this any sort of unintuitive add-on is not a patch on what's lacking in any OS. Not for most users, anyway.
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    A few opinions (of mine) on perspective of the current points being made.

    1. iTunes - It's hard to discount the use/syncing with iTunes for some users. Some people have hundereds of hours invested in configuring, creating playlists, etc. for iTunes. Like it or not, it is the single biggest and most popular music management software on the market.

    2. Homebrew/modding/Preware - Preware is easily the most user accessible pacthing/modding/installer for any smartphone. It requires a very low entry point to begin modifying anything. Having said that... I do not feel that this community (as great as it is) gets Palm "off the hook" for all of the shortcomings for the Pre/webOS (be it hardware or software). As most know... it's very unlikely that 90%+ of general consumers ever engage in homebrew/modding. It's only fair to judge the manufacturers and OS developers on what they actual put out to the general consumer. These conversations on boards like these do not represent the average consumer nor the manner in which the average consumer can/will utilize their phone.
    I was all prepared to disagree, and then I find a very well put post.

    I agree 100%. I would love to see WebOS more customizable. That said though, I don't know which optioins I would choose. I know what I would like, but I don't know if everyone else would like the same. I also know what I've seen where a company tries to include lots of customization in the interface - and what I see is that it becomes so complex, most people don't use it (find 10 BlackBerry users off the street, and ask them where the interface customization tool - not themes, just the OS tools - are located, I'd bet at least 6 won't know).

    I'll tell you what I'd really like to see in this area. I'd like to see Palm offer an easy channel to install custom installers on the device, such as Preware, without having to enter a code, and without having to connect to a computer.

    I think they've done a great service to the community by encouraging Homebrew. Now that it's been shown that it can be done very well, I think it would be a good time for Palm to release things such as that to the general public in more offical manner.
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Hey look ...yet another person who completely ignored that I said that all homebrewing, jailbreaking, and ROM modding is unintuitive. That applies to all platforms.

    You're so busy graduating from Pre Defense Force's rookie academy that you haven't stopped to realize that I have repeatedly said I prefer WebOS and Android over iPhone, in part, for precisely the freedom-related reason you cite above.

    The point is this any sort of unintuitive add-on is not a patch on what's lacking in any OS. Not for most users, anyway.
    Are you beginning to notice a pattern? I'm seeing at least two.

    1. More than one person is "completing ignoring" some of what you say.
    2. The personal attack and silly name-calling for anyone that dares disagree with you.

    I know, I know, you're going to put me on your ignore list and make a big todo about (again), and then slink back in the back door because you can't resist reading. It's fun to watch though, I'll grant you that.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    A few opinions (of mine) on perspective of the current points being made.

    1. iTunes - It's hard to discount the use/syncing with iTunes for some users. Some people have hundereds of hours invested in configuring, creating playlists, etc. for iTunes. Like it or not, it is the single biggest and most popular music management software on the market.
    Finally...the Rock has come ba...I mean, finally...someone who gets this.

    iTunes is a big deal because A) So many people already used it to extensively catalog their music and create playlists due to being among the 100 million+ who bought an iPod and B) Palm made it a big deal when they endorsed it as THE sync solution when the Pre launched.

    That they have since given up on actively pushing that means little when you are, to this day, limited to iTunes and iTunes only using the device "Media Sync" function.

    2. Homebrew/modding/Preware - Preware is easily the most user accessible pacthing/modding/installer for any smartphone. It requires a very low entry point to begin modifying anything. Having said that... I do not feel that this community (as great as it is) gets Palm "off the hook" for all of the shortcomings for the Pre/webOS (be it hardware or software). As most know... it's very unlikely that 90%+ of general consumers ever engage in homebrew/modding. It's only fair to judge the manufacturers and OS developers on what they actual put out to the general consumer. These conversations on boards like these do not represent the average consumer nor the manner in which the average consumer can/will utilize their phone.
    Yup. Look at the total downloads on PreCentral for Preware, compare that with total WebOS sales, and then let's re-examine how intuitive and accessible it has proven to even the relatively small demographic who actually bought the device.
  15. #155  
    HP...you want attention? I gave you some, baby. You gotta say something else interesting, though, if you want me to actively engage you. Last two posts have been whiffing at air.
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    HP...you want attention? I gave you some, baby. You gotta say something else interesting, though, if you want me to actively engage you. Last two posts have been whiffing at air.
    Dang, and I was so concerned you were ignoring me...
  17. #157  
    Who said anything about ignoring you? I wished you a nice lunch and went and had one myself. Was hoping you'd write something interesting to respond to in the interim. No dice. Shame, as you're helping to pass the time on a slow day.
  18. #158  
    Here's a comparison about this whole "intuative" tempest in a teapot.

    My wife could that a certain activity is dangerous, to a lethal degree. If before encroaching upon an area designed for other use, one does not ensure that those objects for which it was intended are not present, serious injury or even death could occur. One would be much safer in not risking serious injury or death by, instead, using the proper device that the area was designed for. Though some risk would still be involved, said risk would be substantially reduced.

    That would sound pretty scary and dangerous.

    I, on the other hand, would probably say "Hey, you don't need to drive to the neighbor's hours, just look both ways before crossing the street".

    Neither of us would be technically wrong.

    It's all in the spin.

    Just sayin'
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Who said anything about ignoring you? I wished you a nice lunch and went and had one myself....
    I did, it was right there...
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Dang, and I was so concerned you were ignoring me...
    Let me 'splain it for you (you seem to be having a little difficulty today, I think you're getting way too worked up, but that's just me thinkin...)

    I said I was so concerned you were ignorning me, implying that you weren't, and I now realize you weren't. Thus, there was no need for anyone to say (previous to my comment) anything about ignoring. As a matter of fact, had you actually said something about ignoring me, I wouldn't have had to think that then correct myself - albeit toungue in cheek.

    That said, it was me poking fun at you for the big production you made about putting me on your "ignore list" (I think you said I was the first person on here that you did that to), then, on the sly, taking me off. What was even funnier though, was that you did it, then waited a few weeks, then couldn't keep from responding...

    So, while you pretend this superior tone, the truth is, you can't help but get right there in the mud and root around with the rest of us.

    I think the main difference is, most of us like it where we are. You seem stuck.

    And now, I'll leave it to you till this evening. Gotta run
  20. #160  
    [QUOTE=mikah912;2577291]

    iTunes is a big deal because A) So many people already used it to extensively catalog their music and create playlists due to being among the 100 million+ who bought an iPod and B) Palm made it a big deal when they endorsed it as THE sync solution when the Pre launched.

    That they have since given up on actively pushing that means little when you are, to this day, limited to iTunes and iTunes only using the device "Media Sync" function.


    QUOTE]

    You are making my point. Itunes isn't the best media cataloging program out there, but it continues to lead, merely because it isn't easy to extract your music. Itunes encrypts your filemnames, making the migration away from it frustrating-near impossible for most people. Palm HAD to offer the sync function to the pre, in order to break the "i-spell" which has so many of the general populus entranced. It wasn't because palm chose not to continue the itunes sync that it was abandoned, it was because Apple saw the threat Webos was to it's lacking OS and blocked it -and essentially consumer option - from being compatible with other devices. Seems like fear to me.
    Remember the Apple tv commercial in the early 90's where the hammer was thrown at the giant screen, symbolizing Apple's "liberating" of the PC user? Hasn't the philosophy come full circle!?!? I was an Apple ****** from my first computer the IIe through my last g4 tower. I FULLY agree that Apple makes its OS super simple to use, but at a price which I'm not willing to pay. I just see way too much upside to WebOS, compared to Microsoft, Apple, and the like.
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