Page 3 of 12 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 237
  1. #41  
    rlee: I was responding to Stockh's question. (and before that, Treiz's)

    You might want to remind yourself the forum you are in, if this conversation frustrates you!
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    So you are telling me that people buy the iPhone because it's pretty? Come on. They sell phones because of the apps. If the iPhone had 2500 apps, it would never sell 25 million a year.
    So you're saying that as long as a phone has apps, no matter how bad the rest of the phone's features are, it'll sell well? Why would developers, by the thousands, flock to such a poorly conceived device and shower it with hundreds of thousands of applications? Does that really make sense to you or are you just relying on hyperbole to bolster a weak case?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Units sold? Again I say if WebOs had 150,000 apps, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That is why I said with HP's help and a strong base of users/developers there is more upside to WebOs. WebOs is the better OS in all categories except one.... APPS.
    You speak as if WebOS is already ahead of iPhone OS and extending that lead when the market clearly shows WebOS far, far behind and losing ground. Is HP going to save the day because of their proven record in the smartphone industry (sarcasm alert!)? Are you saying HP is going to suddenly perform a cultural shift and poor all their (relatively paltry) advertising muscle behind one small product in their otherwise gargantuan product line? Do you happen to ride a unicorn to work every day?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    An open OS will always win over the closed OS. Open OS's with owners that encourage hacking/patching will always provide the innovation. That is why Android has caught up to Apple, and why HP can and will boost WebOs the same way.
    So an open OS like Linux will always win out over a closed OS like Microsoft Windows? Do you realize how silly your statement sounds? I agree that Android is making headway against the iPhone (at least for one heavily advertised quarter so far), but WebOS is making no headway, against any OS, so I guess you really didn't mean "will always win" did you?
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    rlee: I was responding to Stockh's question. (and before that, Treiz's)

    You might want to remind yourself the forum you are in, if this conversation frustrates you!
    I was JOKING (that's why I put the "smile" at the end). There was a double post (since removed)



    I gave you a serious reply immediately after.


    It was just friendly banter. Relax.
  4. #44  
    I thought it was one of those SINISTER smiley faces...... < --- real one.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    So you're saying that as long as a phone has apps, no matter how bad the rest of the phone's features are, it'll sell well? Why would developers, by the thousands, flock to such a poorly conceived device and shower it with hundreds of thousands of applications? Does that really make sense to you or are you just relying on hyperbole to bolster a weak case?
    Have you seen Android? Developers flock to it every bit as much as Apple. I think you misunderstand... I am not knocking the iPhone when I say it would be nothing without apps. I am stating fact. The iPhone is great and marketable because of the apps. It is not the other way around (having apps because it is marketable).

    I have backed up everything I have said with facts. I will leave the hyperbole to someone else.

    Hardware is nice, but you need something to do with it. You cannot say that the iPhone would be what it is without apps. Without apps and lots of them, phone OS's will die.

    You speak as if WebOS is already ahead of iPhone OS and extending that lead when the market clearly shows WebOS far, far behind and losing ground. Is HP going to save the day because of their proven record in the smartphone industry (sarcasm alert!)? Are you saying HP is going to suddenly perform a cultural shift and poor all their (relatively paltry) advertising muscle behind one small product in their otherwise gargantuan product line? Do you happen to ride a unicorn to work every day?
    If you look at the comment you quoted, you will see that I said WebOs has more of an upside. It can do more and looks much better than the iPhone OS. HP buying Palm is very good because of the money they provide. Palm's WebOs is something that is marketable on so many levels.

    I have been very accomidating in responding to your comments. Personal attacks are not becoming. By the way, my unicorn is purple.

    So an open OS like Linux will always win out over a closed OS like Microsoft Windows? Do you realize how silly your statement sounds? I agree that Android is making headway against the iPhone (at least for one heavily advertised quarter so far), but WebOS is making no headway, against any OS, so I guess you really didn't mean "will always win" did you?
    How do you define winning? I define winning as having a better product. In fact, that is how Apple defined their success in the late 90's and early 00's. Eventually you will have a following because your product is superior and you build on that.

    Look at the Apple/Microsoft battles of yore... Microsoft took them to the shed over and over again in sales and OS users. Even now, Microsoft holds such a huge lead in marketshare that by your standards it means that Apple is failing.

    Companies don't necessarily define winning by leading in sales. In fact, there are times when a company will reach sales targets and still lose stock value. This is because winning is determined by net growth and not total sales.

    My point is that HP will bring Palm into its own.
    If you like my Themes, please donate! Thanks!

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    I thought it was one of those SINISTER smiley faces...... < --- real one.


    This is not the first time a girl misunderstood my comment and slapped me in the face! ha

    I honestly meant no offense.
  7. urkel's Avatar
    Posts
    944 Posts
    Global Posts
    946 Global Posts
    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Apps really are the only reason the iPhone is what it is. It sells phones because of apps. You never see an iPhone commercial that talks about built in features of the OS. No one cares.
    Wow. Talk about oversimplifying.

    The iPhone was successful in sales and, more importantly, in MindShare before the App Store opened (followed by a severe industry changing price drop to hook in more users). Apps merely brought in a 2nd wave of iPhone buyers because it gave a universal appeal and could reach a much wider audience.

    Whether people like apple or not, you have to at least acknowledge that a company can't reach this kind of success without intelligent planning, solid concepts and a quality product.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    This is why WebOs (with HP's help) will always be leaps and bounds ahead of iPhone OS.
    Based on what? Palm has proven incapable of keeping up with a fast moving market, HP has a reputation of acquiring companies only to let them die and the only improvements in WebOS over the last year is stability.

    Unless you know something we don't, there's no reason to assume HP can envision a better path to success than Palm did. (I feel HP is more interested in WebOS Tablets than phones)
  8. #48  
    I'm not even sure what the big deal is?

    There is room for BOTH (are even 3...4...) OS.



    The "gulf" between iPhone and webOS is comparable to the difference between Windows and Apple on desktop computers.

    Apple seemed to survive being the "minor player" there.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Wow. Talk about oversimplifying.

    The iPhone was successful in sales and, more importantly, in MindShare before the App Store opened (followed by a severe industry changing price drop to hook in more users). Apps merely brought in a 2nd wave of iPhone buyers because it gave a universal appeal and could reach a much wider audience.

    Whether people like apple or not, you have to at least acknowledge that a company can't reach this kind of success without intelligent planning, solid concepts and a quality product.
    I am not knocking the iPhone as a product by saying that WebOs is better.

    The iPhone is a solid phone and it is built better than just about any out there (perhaps HTC has a claim here). The OS is super solid for what it does, and it continues to get better. I was merely pointing out that without apps, the iPhone would have been an Apple fan boy toy without appeal to wider audiences. It is not marketable outside the techy realm without apps. This is fact, not conjecture or hyperbole.

    If apps do not make the iPhone sell, then why have an app store anyway?

    Based on what? Palm has proven incapable of keeping up with a fast moving market, HP has a reputation of acquiring companies only to let them die and the only improvements in WebOS over the last year is stability.

    Unless you know something we don't, there's no reason to assume HP can envision a better path to success than Palm did. (I feel HP is more interested in WebOS Tablets than phones)
    Many feel that WebOs is only held back by its hardware. That is sure to change sooner rather than later. Also, HP will be leaving Palm intact for the most part. They want Palm as it is and will incorporate Palm's WebOs into other hardware (tablets, printers and phones). HP's vision is to use Palm's WebOs in as many devices as it can, and let the Palm segment continue to innovate.

    We will, of necessity I fear, continue to disagree on this point. I have had stellar success in using my Pre and WebOs, and you have not. It happens. I feel the reason WebOs has a bigger upside is because it is more than an App portal. It can go many more places... I am waiting for a WebOs microwave or lazy susan.
    Last edited by pogeypre; 05/25/2010 at 04:32 PM.
    If you like my Themes, please donate! Thanks!

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Have you seen Android? Developers flock to it every bit as much as Apple. I think you misunderstand... I am not knocking the iPhone when I say it would be nothing without apps. I am stating fact. The iPhone is great and marketable because of the apps. It is not the other way around (having apps because it is marketable).
    Five million iPhones sold without a single app available is a number WebOS, WITH apps, can only dream of. The apps are a big plus, but the iPhone stands on its own pretty well out of the box.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    If you look at the comment you quoted, you will see that I said WebOs has more of an upside. It can do more and looks much better than the iPhone OS. HP buying Palm is very good because of the money they provide. Palm's WebOs is something that is marketable on so many levels.
    You mean the quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    This is why WebOs (with HP's help) will always be leaps and bounds ahead of iPhone OS.
    Sounds like present tense. Sounds like it's a slam dunk. Looks like no support, proof or facts. Possible hyperbole?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    How do you define winning? I define winning as having a better product. In fact, that is how Apple defined their success in the late 90's and early 00's. Eventually you will have a following because your product is superior and you build on that.
    Sony betamax, Tucker automobile, Convair aircraft, and Hughes missile each defined winning as having a better product. A superior product doesn't win by itself. Apple learned this lesson in the mid-1990s. Winning is making a profit. Winning big is making a big profit. Dominating/controlling a market is one way to make big profits.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Look at the Apple/Microsoft battles of yore... Microsoft took them to the shed over and over again in sales and OS users. Even now, Microsoft holds such a huge lead in marketshare that by your standards it means that Apple is failing.
    Your selection of examples here is conveniently limited. shall we talk about Zunes and iPods? Or WM phones (all manufacturers combined) and iPhones? Or how about "winning?" Last quarter both companies were ~$13.5B in revenues and $3.5B in profit. Sounds like they're both "winning" to me. How did Palm do in that same quarter? That doesn't sound like winning - better product or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Companies don't necessarily define winning by leading in sales. In fact, there are times when a company will reach sales targets and still lose stock value. This is because winning is determined by net growth and not total sales.
    Yes, and there are times when a company exceeds sales targets and still loses stock value. It's about profitability - that's what winning is. If you can't gain and maintain profitability, even as a wholly owned subsidiary of a largely successful parent company, you lose - and by lose I mean you fail/go away/cease to exist/the opposite of winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    My point is that HP will bring Palm into its own.
    If you change "will" to "may," then I concede your point, but it's far from a forgone conclusion.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Five million iPhones sold without a single app available is a number WebOS, WITH apps, can only dream of. The apps are a big plus, but the iPhone stands on its own pretty well out of the box.
    Like I said, the iPhone without apps = ipod that you can call with.

    Fact - iPhone without apps sells 5 million and then stagnates.

    Fact - iPhone with apps sells 10 times that over the next year and a half.

    WebOs doesn't have the cult following that Apple does, but new hardware will help. This goes into another fact -

    The iPhone is updated with new hardware every year. Were WebOs to do that, (which they will with HP), then you will see some change in marketshare.

    Sounds like present tense. Sounds like it's a slam dunk. Looks like no support, proof or facts. Possible hyperbole?
    Being a bull on something may include a little conjecture, but HP has been fairly free with their plans for WebOs. I call it a win. You call it hyperbole.

    Sony betamax, Tucker automobile, Convair aircraft, and Hughes missile each defined winning as having a better product. A superior product doesn't win by itself. Apple learned this lesson in the mid-1990s. Winning is making a profit. Winning big is making a big profit. Dominating/controlling a market is one way to make big profits.
    You continue to agree with me by disagreeing. Apple realized that the iPhone needed more than to just be a phone with an iPod. That is why they created the App store. That is why they expanded the platform to 3rd party developers.

    WebOs is a superior OS on subpar harware. Wait for the good hardware. It's coming.

    Your selection of examples here is conveniently limited. shall we talk about Zunes and iPods? Or WM phones (all manufacturers combined) and iPhones? Or how about "winning?" Last quarter both companies were ~$13.5B in revenues and $3.5B in profit. Sounds like they're both "winning" to me. How did Palm do in that same quarter? That doesn't sound like winning - better product or not.
    Again, I point to the fact that HP is buying Palm. I consider that a win. WebOs on all devices that HP makes? Win. Honestly, I have been speaking on Palm with HP backing. I wasn't comparing Palm standalone.

    Yes, and there are times when a company exceeds sales targets and still loses stock value. It's about profitability - that's what winning is. If you can't gain and maintain profitability, even as a wholly owned subsidiary of a largely successful parent company, you lose - and by lose I mean you fail/go away/cease to exist/the opposite of winning.
    If you change "will" to "may," then I concede your point, but it's far from a forgone conclusion.
    We do agree that a company that is not profitable will fail. That is a fact of life.

    That is why having HP as a backer for Palm makes so much sense. Having WebOs on many platforms is a win.
    If you like my Themes, please donate! Thanks!

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Like I said, the iPhone without apps = ipod that you can call with.

    Fact - iPhone without apps sells 5 million and then stagnates.

    Fact - iPhone with apps sells 10 times that over the next year and a half.
    You're forgetting that the original iPhone was sold without a subsidy. Even with the subsequent price cuts, it took the introduction of the iPhone 3G (which, coincidentally, also introduced the App Store) to get it down to a more palatable price point.
  13. rkguy's Avatar
    Posts
    803 Posts
    Global Posts
    816 Global Posts
    #53  
    so far I do prefer webos.
  14. #54  
    I've worked with both extensively and I feel iPhone OS still has WebOS beat in some areas. the whole multitasking thing is awesome with amazing potential. I feel though that at this stage the iPhoneOS just does what it is meant to do far better than WebOS does what its meant to do. the idea is awesome, but not executed extremely well at this stage.
  15. #55  
    I have a Pre as my primary phone and I spend 50% of my time at work developing iPhone apps. iPhone is faster, but that's the only area it beats WebOS in as fair as I am concerned. When I look back at the first release of iPhone OS, and the current state of WebOS I think WebOS is really advancing rapidly, Even compared to android.

    Apple really had a great platform to start from, OS X. Palm used a ton of open source stuff from linux, which is why I think it is so great. I think once WebOS hits version 2 with new hardware it's really going to make a splash in the smartphone pool.

    In the meantime, somebody talk me out of buying a HTC Evo 4g! Please! Android has completely gimped Android in every way, but the speedy hardware and flash support has me thinking about making the switch. I think if palm would announce new hardware soon that would keep me happy.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Like I said, the iPhone without apps = ipod that you can call with.

    Fact - iPhone without apps sells 5 million and then stagnates.

    Fact - iPhone with apps sells 10 times that over the next year and a half.

    WebOs doesn't have the cult following that Apple does, but new hardware will help. This goes into another fact -

    The iPhone is updated with new hardware every year. Were WebOs to do that, (which they will with HP), then you will see some change in marketshare.

    Being a bull on something may include a little conjecture, but HP has been fairly free with their plans for WebOs. I call it a win. You call it hyperbole.

    You continue to agree with me by disagreeing. Apple realized that the iPhone needed more than to just be a phone with an iPod. That is why they created the App store. That is why they expanded the platform to 3rd party developers.

    WebOs is a superior OS on subpar harware. Wait for the good hardware. It's coming.

    Again, I point to the fact that HP is buying Palm. I consider that a win. WebOs on all devices that HP makes? Win. Honestly, I have been speaking on Palm with HP backing. I wasn't comparing Palm standalone.

    We do agree that a company that is not profitable will fail. That is a fact of life.

    That is why having HP as a backer for Palm makes so much sense. Having WebOs on many platforms is a win.
    Revisionist viewpoints still don't change reality. iPhone sales slowed at the end of the first year because the supply ran out - no more phones on the shelves - because the iPhone simply outsold everyone's best estimates (Link). In other words, your drawing the wrong conclusion from your "facts." In its first year, the Phone sold like the Pre never could as nothing more than what Apple said it was: a phone, a music player, and the internet. And it sold like the Pre never has - even at full price, without subsidy.

    But the real explosion in iPhone sales came with the 3G and the initiation of AT&T subsidies. Suddenly a lot more people could afford the iPhone - so a lot more people bought it. Again, you draw the wrong conclusion from your "facts."

    By all means keep your hope alive ... maybe you'll be right someday. But if you happen to be right, it would mean the man in charge of this miracle turn-around for Palm is the exact same person who nearly destroyed the Palm brand back in 2003: Mr. Todd Bradley. And here it is 7 years later (7 years of failure on his part to jump-start the HP attempts at mobile devices) and there's no Ed Colligan around to rescue them from the brink. Like I've been saying - the deck is stacked against Palm on this one.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Revisionist viewpoints still don't change reality. iPhone sales slowed at the end of the first year because the supply ran out - no more phones on the shelves - because the iPhone simply outsold everyone's best estimates (Link). In other words, your drawing the wrong conclusion from your "facts." In its first year, the Phone sold like the Pre never could as nothing more than what Apple said it was: a phone, a music player, and the internet. And it sold like the Pre never has - even at full price, without subsidy.

    But the real explosion in iPhone sales came with the 3G and the initiation of AT&T subsidies. Suddenly a lot more people could afford the iPhone - so a lot more people bought it. Again, you draw the wrong conclusion from your "facts."

    By all means keep your hope alive ... maybe you'll be right someday. But if you happen to be right, it would mean the man in charge of this miracle turn-around for Palm is the exact same person who nearly destroyed the Palm brand back in 2003: Mr. Todd Bradley. And here it is 7 years later (7 years of failure on his part to jump-start the HP attempts at mobile devices) and there's no Ed Colligan around to rescue them from the brink. Like I've been saying - the deck is stacked against Palm on this one.
    Whatever you say. We went the rounds on this last year, and I have no inclination to contine this. Putting quotes around the word "facts" is a little silly, no?

    I think Palm will be fine, you do not. Fine.

    In closing, subsidies didn't kick in until 2008, but even then the price was not much less than the September 2008 price correction. Also, the phone was not that out of line with other smartphones. Price drops do not sell iPhones... Apps sell iPhones. Anywho, have a good night.
    If you like my Themes, please donate! Thanks!

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    In closing, subsidies didn't kick in until 2008, but even then the price was not much less than the September 2008 price correction.
    $199 vs $399 is "not much less?"
  19. #59  
    If you obviously know what it takes to succeed (applications), then what guarantee do you have the developers are going to flock to WebOS and contribute to its success? There is no guarantee. Even after 2 years, developers are still _slowly_ trickling to Android; given the current state of WebOS' SDK and very small market share, developers have no real interest.

    It's kind of a catch-22 situation if you really think about it. Developers go where the market share is and the consumers go where the apps are. Since Apple (and now Google) dominate in that area [apps] … how does Palm/HP plan on improving this situation?
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    You will notice that the sales of the iPhone skyrocketed after the app store-



    Do you see q2 and q3 08? Very small sales increase, then the App Catalog gets going and in q4 they sell nearly 10 million phones. That is not a coincidence. Without the app catalog, and thus without apps, iPhone would be a second rate OS. It's all about the apps.
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    True. Apple sold 5 million iPhones based on that. Then they sold 10 times that by having tons of apps. iPhone would have fallen flat on its face otherwise.
    You're analysis ignores some extremely key variables that effect the sales of iphones. There's is a very logical reason why you would not see significant growth in Iphone sales in Q2 and Q3 2008.

    The app store was released July 11, 2008. The very same day, Apple released a new iphone and OS, the Iphone 3G with new Iphone OS 2.0 preinstalled. So new phone with new OS coinciding with the App store. So it's not just app store releasing then it's new hardware and software.

    But the rub is that up until July 11, 2008 the iphone was only available in the U.S, UK, Austria, Germany, France, and Ireland. Also, unlike the U.S., Europe already had extensive 3G service for several years so a non-3G iphone was an unappealing device compared to others offered, especially at the high price Iphones went for then.

    But the big thing is that apple didn't just release the app store, the iphone entered new markets. Fiscal year 2008 for Apple ended September 27, 2008. Thus Iphone 3G was launched in the U.S., and iphones in general were released in most countries for the first time ever in Q4 which would be July 2008 and later quarters. Most of the world got iphones after september 2008, so not even in fiscal year 2008. Which explains why there is a dramatic bump not in Q2 and Q3 but in Q4 2008 and Q1 2009. That's when the Iphone 3g launched in the U.S. and the rest of the world. The app store did come out at the same time. But the increase in iphone sales directly correlates to the dates when the iphone first began being sold not just in 5 countries but in the the majority of the world. They go from selling iphones to a 500 million people to Billions. Selling to 5 countries to like 85. Sales expanded because their market dramatically expanded beyond five countries. They sold "ten times more" because they where in ten times more markets all of a sudden. I'd have to ask what is the more logical explanation for the jump in iphones. That they opened an app store or that they started selling phones in the entire world. I'd guess the latter had the bigger impact on sales.
    Last edited by blackmagic01; 05/26/2010 at 03:42 PM.
Page 3 of 12 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions