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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    ...
    Bottom line is that for something that's such an oft-cited key advantage of owning a Pre or Pixi, what does it say that even the majority of people who use the devices don't bother?
    Gosh, I don't know. Maybe you should check with the folks that claim that a majority of the people "bother".

    I suspect that there are lots of things on different devices/objects that are listed as an advantage that "most people" don't regularly use. I have an SUV that has an electric top that is retractable. It was listed as an advantage, and I liked it. Still do. Probably have used it 5 or 6 times (not counting the times I used it just to show it off) in the 5 years I've owned it. That doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

    I suspect that one of the reasons that the ease of Homebrew is so often quoted as an advantage is the doggedness in which Apple has fought the "jailbreak" community with the iPhone, and the fact that Palm has embraced it with the Pre. In short, it makes for a starkly contrasting comparison.
  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sorry you see it that way; however, it's not part of the NDA, and Palm has openly encouraged the homebrew community (which must use the mentioned code). Have you checked with them before telling me I'm wrong?
    It does not need to be part of the NDA to be intended for developers.

    Have you checked with them before telling me I'm wrong?

    It's much easier to draw the conclusion that it is intended for developers... given the supporting facts... but that brings us back to being obtuse yet again... doesn't it?

    Palm has also openly warned against custom kernels (or "overclocking patches").

    This conversation is really going nowhere, since you are now just bouncing all over the place and grasping at straws...
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    I'm not embarrassed at all. I made a "language" error. I'm man enough to admit that.
    OK, now I'm confused. First it was a typo (which made my assumption incorrect), now it's a language mistake (which made my assimption correct); but the really funny thing is - That's not even what I was talking about
    Here's what I was talking about.
    I spend some time on here responding to what I find interesting (for whatever reason). Yes, I'm quick to respond if I choose to, and yes, I check back frequently if it's a "heated" discussion that I find interesting.

    You apparently do the same.

    You tried to make fun of me for doing what you appear to be doing as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    And again, since you constantly need things explained...

    Odd for someone who by AND large spends a majority of their time on these forums offering their opinion on the merits of webOS and the Pre when compared to other mobile OS/devices...

    That means that a majority of your time spent on these forums... is spent (in the cross platform forum) offering your opinion on the merits of webOS and the Pre when compared to other mobile OS/devices... Granted... a "majority" of that time is spent being "deliberately obtuse".
    Thanks for the explanation, but again you've made a false assumption. I don't think I ever responded on the "cross platform chat" until a couple of weeks ago. If I did, the posts were very few. I've been on here well over 7 years, and on PreCentral specifically (the system stats me from the TreoCentral days) since it started. Most of my posts, and time on here, have been spent on the General Pre forum.

    And of course the time I spend on the Cross Platform forum (that's on the Pre website) is spent comparing other OSs to the Pre's OS. That's what the forum is here for.

    Keep trying though... it's fun to watch you wiggle...

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Have a great day. I'll see you tomorrow... as I think you are over your 5 min quota for the day.

    PS: You misspelled instead... and n is not anywhere close to a or d on the keyboard.
    Dang, you put a quota on me???!!!! I didn't even realize they put you in charge!
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    You are misrepresenting the purpose of that code being made available on webOS. It's purpose is intended to be used by developers (not end users)... Hence the reason it is called "development mode" and is only made public under the development section of Palm's website.

    Also, please note that Preware is a webOS application that is not available in the Official Palm App Catalog.
    It's made public to everyone, not just a vetted group of official developers. It was marketed when the phone was first released. I have no idea how many people take advantage of it. Last time I looked, this forum told me there were thousands of users logged on _right now_. I suspect quite a lot of users stop by here, just as users browse the app catalog.

    And the freedom that Palm allows developers to access and modify core functionality is valuable to end-users, as well.

    So, do users patch their phones? I dunno. This site might have some way of measuring that, or the Preware folks. Palm's marketing has changed from "cool and geeky" to "easy for a woman to use", so maybe fewer recent purchasers do stuff like that. The "easy for women to use" theme is a good one, as the Pre, unlike a lot of those big candy bars, can be slipped into a woman's pockets. Another reason I didn't buy the iPhone is that it's harder to carry around. It doesn't fit in my pockets, the Pre fits easily.
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Hmm, seems I'm still one step ahead of you~~~

    Actually... maybe two...
    Yep, you were two steps ahead.

    Step 1, claim it was a typo.
    Step 2, man up and admit it was a language mistake.

    I feel so behind...

    Interesting side note that's totally off topic. Many phrases we use today have nautical origins. They are also the phrase that munged a lot. This one, by and large, is also nautical in origin. "By" means sailing to the wind, close hauled or on a close reach. "Large" means sailing down wind. So "By and large" means all over the place, or whichever way you're going.
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Palm has also openly warned against custom kernels (or "overclocking patches").
    Yup, I agree that custom kernals go beyond "routine use of the gadget", especially since the description of uberkernal says "using this probably violates your warrantee". What does that have to do with anything? The Pre is a very usable phone without replacing the kernal.
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
    Yup, I agree that custom kernals go beyond "routine use of the gadget", especially since the description of uberkernal says "using this probably violates your warrantee". What does that have to do with anything? The Pre is a very usable phone without replacing the kernal.
    Exactily. That little nugget was used to deflect the topic from the ease of customizing the OS. The vast majority of Homebrew have nothing to do with a custom kernal, and also does nothing to void a warranty.
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
    It's made public to everyone, not just a vetted group of official developers. It was marketed when the phone was first released. I have no idea how many people take advantage of it. Last time I looked, this forum told me there were thousands of users logged on _right now_. I suspect quite a lot of users stop by here, just as users browse the app catalog.

    And the freedom that Palm allows developers to access and modify core functionality is valuable to end-users, as well.
    ...
    To be fair, developers aren't vetted (at least, not that I know of). Basically, all one has to do is sign up to be a developer.
    That said, the rest of your post is spot on. The developer's code is not part of the NDA, and had Palm been trying to keep it a "secret" or make it largely inaccessible, they would not have used a code that's been around in the video game industry since the mid 1980's, and has been used in multiple devices, software, and websites.
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
    Yup, I agree that custom kernals go beyond "routine use of the gadget", especially since the description of uberkernal says "using this probably violates your warrantee". What does that have to do with anything? The Pre is a very usable phone without replacing the kernal.
    What does that have to do with anything?

    I'm going to assume since you just jumped in this thread you skimmed over some of the previous posts and missed the discussions of OCing and kernels being used.
    Look back and follow the conversation... A custom kernel and OCing have been mentioned.

    Also, many would disagree that the Pre is "very usable" without OCing (again especially compared to other comparable devices). But that is an opinion and not one shared be all...
    Last edited by gmanvbva; 07/28/2010 at 02:50 PM.
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    To be fair, developers aren't vetted (at least, not that I know of). Basically, all one has to do is sign up to be a developer.
    That said, the rest of your post is spot on. The developer's code is not part of the NDA, and had Palm been trying to keep it a "secret" or make it largely inaccessible, they would not have used a code that's been around in the video game industry since the mid 1980's, and has been used in multiple devices, software, and websites.
    Just because it wasn't made a "secret" or made largely inaccessible... does not mean it was intended to be used by end users.

    It was the community (Dev's and end users) that made it "largely accessible" not Palm. Palm only made it directly accessible to developers by only publishing it in their development documentation. They did not publish it in their end user documents.
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    It does not need to be part of the NDA to be intended for developers.

    Have you checked with them before telling me I'm wrong?

    It's much easier to draw the conclusion that it is intended for developers... given the supporting facts... but that brings us back to being obtuse yet again... doesn't it?

    Palm has also openly warned against custom kernels (or "overclocking patches").

    This conversation is really going nowhere, since you are now just bouncing all over the place and grasping at straws...
    Actually, I never said you were wrong, I simply agreed with the other person. That seems to bother you though...

    And yes, Palm has openly warned against custom kernals. Custom kernals were not what we were talking about, and only represent a very small part of the Homebrew offereings.

    I would say that if Palm has openly embraced the Homebrew community, that would seem to fly in the face of "they intended it only for developers". I know, I know, you think I'm being "obtuse". I don't think that word means what you think it means though.
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    What does that have to do with anything?

    I'm going to assume since you just jumped in this thread you skimmed over some of the previous posts and missed the discussions of OCing and kernels being used.
    Look back and follow the conversation... A custom kernel and OCing have been mentioned.

    Also, many would disagree that the Pre is "very usable" without OCing (again especially compared to other comparable devices). But that is an opinion and not one shared be all...
    Yes, overclocking and custom kernals have been mentioned, but primarily as a means to hijack the thread (in my opinion). But that wasn't really the main point of the topic. Customization was. I suggest you "follow the conversation"...
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Actually, I never said you were wrong, I simply agreed with the other person. That seems to bother you though...

    And yes, Palm has openly warned against custom kernals. Custom kernals were not what we were talking about, and only represent a very small part of the Homebrew offereings.

    I would say that if Palm has openly embraced the Homebrew community, that would seem to fly in the face of "they intended it only for developers". I know, I know, you think I'm being "obtuse". I don't think that word means what you think it means though.
    I know exactly what it means. But lets leave the language lessons for another time... shall we?

    Palm has embraced the homebrew community. I'm not sure that I agree that custom kernels are a "small part" of the homebrew offerings, however. But I think that may depend on what context you are putting that statement in...

    For me custom kernels are a large part of the homebrew offerings because they offer the single most significant impact on the end user experience of any of the homebrew offerings. Sure it's probably 1 of 3000 items available in Preware... but it is (for me) the most significant single item available in Preware (Edit: By a significant margin).
    Last edited by gmanvbva; 07/28/2010 at 03:15 PM.
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Yes, overclocking and custom kernals have been mentioned, but primarily as a means to hijack the thread (in my opinion). But that wasn't really the main point of the topic. Customization was. I suggest you "follow the conversation"...
    Look back again. Custom kernels were introduced into this thread by a webOS "supporter" and not to "hijack" the thread. I believe mikah responded to that post and then a custom kernel was again introduced later into the thread by another webOS "supporter".

    I could be wrong... or you could just not be "following the conversation"...
  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Just because it wasn't made a "secret" or made largely inaccessible... does not mean it was intended to be used by end users.
    ...
    So, if I'm understanding you correctly, it's your position that Palm does not want the code in the hand of end users.

    • They used a very old code that was widely known in the tech community
    • They then added a code that was easier to use (and still used the old code as well)
    • They've publicly embraced the homebrew community a number of times
    • They actively accepted applications into their Apps Catalog that were originally released as Homebrew
    • Homebrew requires one to first enter the code


    In spite of all of this, it's your contention that they don't want the public to know the code? What was that word you keep tossing around .... obtuse... yeah, that's it.
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Look back again. Custom kernels were introduced into this thread by a webOS "supporter" and not to "hijack" the thread. I believe mikah responded to that post and then a custom kernel was again introduced later into the thread by another webOS "supporter".

    I could be wrong... or you could just not be "following the conversation"...
    Please, don't rearrainge or re-interpret (or be obtuse about) what I said. I never said anything about "introduced to hijack". I specifically said

    Yes, overclocking and custom kernals have been mentioned, but primarily as a means to hijack the thread (in my opinion).
    I'm referring specifically to these two posts:
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    ...
    Homebrewing is not intuitive, which is why you must enter a code, download additional desktop programs and drivers...
    And Lord help you if you want to overclock at a speed beyond the sanctioned Uberkernel....
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    "Patched to hell" was referencing numerous patches being applied, installing custom kernels and installing applications for the specific purpose of improving the devices usability to the point where it is comparable to other stock devices...
    The latter's combination of the pejorative (see, got it right this time, I can learn, give it shot...) and concentration on the overclocking is what prompted my use of the term "hijack the thread". Up until that point, most of the conversation was about the intuitiveness or simplicity of customization.

    Along those lines, I maintain again, installing Preware, and applying customization patches is simple, not the complex process some folks are pretending it to be.

    Overclocking may be the "the most significant single item available in Preware" for you but that doesn't mean it is for everyone. Not only that, Preware was around for a long time before overclocking was available through the application.

    Even going along with what you said, your post seems to confirm the point many of us are trying to make. The fact that something so powerful is available via Preware, and is so easy to install using that application, speaks to how this is not a complex procedure on the Pre.

    I challenge you to find any device, any where, that is more simple to overclock.

    The conversation really was about simplicity in use, so please, try to follow along.
  17. #217  
    You are just mindlessly (and desperately jabbing) at this point...

    I (personally), not once, stated that Preware or "customizing" was difficult on webOS/Pre. And in fact I (personally) have stated numerous times (in this thread and others that you have participated in) stated that this homebrew community and Preware are easily the most user friendly community (and process) I have ever been associated with regards to a smartphone community.

    My pejorative comments towards webOS and specifically patching/customizing it... have been directly related to the opinion that when comparing webOS/Pre to iOS/iPhone... or Android/whatever... you need to take advantage of these "options" in order for this OS/device to be comparable to others. And to a lesser extent... the fact that you may need to do this numerous times due to the failure/replacement rate of Pre.

    So please do not try to rearrange or re-interpret my words or confuse the posts of others with mine.

    Also, I think you we be hard pressed to find many around here that would not agree that OCing kernels significantly increases their satisfaction level with the webOS/Pre experience... more so than any other single customization available. Unless of course they are just not comfortable with the notion of overclocking.
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    You are just mindlessly (and desperately jabbing) at this point...

    I (personally), not once, stated that Preware or "customizing" was difficult on webOS/Pre. And in fact I (personally) have stated numerous times (in this thread and others that you have participated in) stated that this homebrew community and Preware are easily the most user friendly community (and process) I have ever been associated with regards to a smartphone community.
    Actually, I don't think I said that you said that. I said that was the topic of the conversation. You attempted to hijack it (in my opinion) with the kernel/OC portion of the conversation.

    As far as Palm's acceptance or desire for the Homebrew community, I'd say this is pretty good timing:
    http://www.precentral.net/mckinney-w...ing-webos-apps
    We also support the homebrew guys. You hear about all the guys hacking phones and unlocking the phones, we actually encourage that. You can go out to PreCentral or any of the sites that support the Palm homebrew guys. they'll tell you how to unlock your phone and how you can download the homebrew sites. The homebrew guys have just done some phenomenal work from the standpoint of really unlocking the true power of webOS
    Even though McKinney didn't come from Palm (who implemented the code we were discussing), it's been made plain that HP/Palm is continuing on with the roadmap that Palm originated, and HP is clearing (continuing) to embrace the homebrew community.
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    ...
    Also, I think you we be hard pressed to find many around here that would not agree that OCing kernels significantly increases their satisfaction level with the webOS/Pre experience... more so than any other single customization available. Unless of course they are just not comfortable with the notion of overclocking.
    Two points on that.
    1. Many will not overclock specifically because it could void their warranty. That scares of a lot of people.
    2. Regardless of how significantly it increases user satisfaction (face it, I could make the same argument about Homebrew in general, that doesn't mean that it's the most "significant" part of the Pre though), I don't see overclocking as the most important part of customization in general.

    I'll agree that it's probably the single most applied customization, but I would not agree that it's the most important, nor do I think most would agree with that (if that's what you mean).
    Here's an example. If I had to choose between two options, give up all other customization of the Pre, or give up overclocking, I would chose the latter. Cumulatively, all of the other things are more important to me.
    However, it's nice that we both agree that the customization and the overclocking are simple with the Pre.
  20. #220  
    I'm a software engineer and even I didn't want to fool with the trouble that was involved in "hacking" the Pre, especially when an update would come along and completely diminish my work. If it wasn't stock, I didn't want it.

    Then again, I also don't trust the work of rogue developers to have such an affect on the underlying parts of my phone, I prefer to stick with whats offered straight from the manufacture.

    I guess I'm just weird.
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