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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    That's what I'm talking about. What does "patched to hell" mean? I've got a lot of patches installed on mine. They don't negatively affect the phone, and they were as easy (actually, in many ways, much easier) to configure than the stock OS settings for a BlackBerry.

    So that's my point. All this nonsense about it's not intuitive, and it's complex, and wah wah wah is simply noise to make the whole process sound more difficult.

    And why the perjorative? Does one say the iPhone has to be "apped all to hell" to make it useable?

    The OSs that have it customization built in are still so difficult that most folks don't do it.

    What's the replacement rate for the Pre? What's the "normal" replacement rate? How can you make a comparison without these two pieces of information?
    "Patched to hell" was referencing numerous patches being applied, installing custom kernels and installing applications for the specific purpose of improving the devices usability to the point where it is comparable to other stock devices. Is that clarification enough? I thought anyone following this thread and it's recent context, would be able to surmise this. Unless of course you are simply being obtuse...

    Last time I checked... iPhone applications were part of the "normal" stock experience... and lets not get started on "apped to hell".

    You also conveniently ignored the fact (or refuse to admit) that a stock Pre is very hard pressed to offer the same user experience and feature set of a comparable stock offering for the iPhone or Android.

    I'll let you continue to be obtuse with mikah... since that is all you are really doing...
  2. #182  
    One of the reasons I bought the Pre was because it was clear from the start that patching it would not only be legal, but allowed by both Palm and the phone distributors. Until the recent ruling by the Library of Congress, my best guess was that it was actually illegal to jailbreak an iPhone, and it's certainly still a violation of the customer agreement and voids your warranty.

    Not so patching the Pre. I would argue that patching the Pre is part of the "normal stock experience" of owning a Pre. And I really like that I can make minor modifications like changing system sounds or adjusting the defaults of the stock programs conveniently and without violating my customer agreement. I also like the potential for 3rd party companies to re-write the stock programs, although alas few have chosen to do so. (A new e-mail program, anyone, with a way to store a small number of e-mails indefinitely on the device? Allowed, but not implemented.)

    As I see it, the main problems with the Pre are:

    * poor battery life (a problem the iPhone shares, and I've gotten around that with the 2600 battery.)
    * slow response rate. (is that why people overclock? Overclocking strikes me as potentially dangerous, unlike setting my calendar to open to the "week" view. But maybe I should try it.)
    * potential orphanhood (will HP actually save WebOS, or just let it die slower? I wish some other company had picked up Palm, some company with a better history of using and advancing stuff.)
    * lack of interest by developers.

    I think the second one is a real killer in the marketplace. The iPhone, or at least, my husband's iPod Touch, seems perkier. And two things that really matter in user interface are color and responsiveness. People can rank features intellectually every which way, but the market likes colorful responsive devices.

    The final one, lack of developer interest, is also a problem. I can find most of the apps I need, but I can't share the one-off stuff my friends have developed, or cool things that people are talking about, or . . . It just makes the phone less sexy.

    So . . . I'm here. Obviously I prefer the Pre to the iPhone or I'd be over at an iPhone forum. But I wish the Pre could be better and more competative.
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    No amount of anecdotal evidence will convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced. This argument will never be settled one way or the other on these boards. I think the buying public settled it some time ago. That's all that really matters.
    I'm totally convinced that his anecdotal information is correct.

    And anectdotal.

    I will also submit that no amount of polls will convince someone that their anectdotal information is not universal.
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    "Patched to hell" was referencing numerous patches being applied, installing custom kernels and installing applications for the specific purpose of improving the devices usability to the point where it is comparable to other stock devices. Is that clarification enough? I thought anyone following this thread and it's recent context, would be able to surmise this. Unless of course you are simply being obtuse...

    Last time I checked... iPhone applications were part of the "normal" stock experience... and lets not get started on "apped to hell".

    You also conveniently ignored the fact (or refuse to admit) that a stock Pre is very hard pressed to offer the same user experience and feature set of a comparable stock offering for the iPhone or Android.

    I'll let you continue to be obtuse with mikah... since that is all you are really doing...
    I don't own an iPhone or Android, so I won't make the comparison.

    Since we're going to engage in a little name calling, I prefer deliberately obtuse to accidentally idiotic. Do with as you will.
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    "Patched to hell" was referencing numerous patches being applied, installing custom kernels and installing applications for the specific purpose of improving the devices usability to the point where it is comparable to other stock devices. Is that clarification enough? I thought anyone following this thread and it's recent context, would be able to surmise this. Unless of course you are simply being obtuse...

    Last time I checked... iPhone applications were part of the "normal" stock experience... and lets not get started on "apped to hell"....
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
    One of the reasons I bought the Pre was because it was clear from the start that patching it would not only be legal, but allowed by both Palm and the phone distributors. Until the recent ruling by the Library of Congress, my best guess was that it was actually illegal to jailbreak an iPhone, and it's certainly still a violation of the customer agreement and voids your warranty.

    Not so patching the Pre. I would argue that patching the Pre is part of the "normal stock experience" of owning a Pre....
    Very well put. That was much what I was trying to say, but in a much more roundabout way.

    I notice that question "why the perjorative" was never answered. Again, I suspect I know the reason.
  6. #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I don't own an iPhone or Android, so I won't make the comparison.

    Since we're going to engage in a little name calling, I prefer deliberately obtuse to accidentally idiotic. Do with as you will.
    Odd for someone who by in large spends a majority of their time on these forums offering their opinion on the merits of webOS and the Pre when compared to other mobile OS/devices...

    PS: deliberately obtuse fits perfectly. accidentally idiotic... not so much...
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
    Not so patching the Pre. I would argue that patching the Pre is part of the "normal stock experience" of owning a Pre.
    Let's play the HP game:

    What is the rate (based on something more than users of this forum) of adoption of homebrew on the Pre and Pixi?

    Unless we know those numbers, we don't know that "patching the Pre is part of the 'normal stock experience' of owning a Pre and/or Pixi"
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Very well put. That was much what I was trying to say, but in a much more roundabout way.

    I notice that question "why the perjorative" was never answered. Again, I suspect I know the reason.
    Boy... I really have to spell everything out for you...

    The pejorative is because (as stated earlier)

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    ...numerous patches being applied, installing custom kernels and installing applications for the specific purpose of improving the devices usability to the point where it is comparable to other stock devices.
    I.E. Not necessary on other devices. That could very easily lead to "pejorative" remarks... No?

    PS: Installing a custom kernel certainly violates your user agreement and warranty.
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    Odd for someone who by in large spends a majority of their time on these forums offering their opinion on the merits of webOS and the Pre when compared to other mobile OS/devices...
    I'm assuming you meant "by and large", not "by in large"
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    PS: deliberately obtuse fits perfectly. accidentally idiotic... not so much...
    The former was reference your view of me, the latter was something else...
  10. #190  
    It's called a typo... Please notice that I did not feel the need to stoop to the level of pointing out that you misspelled pejorative (twice)...

    I know what they both referenced. I'm following the conversation pretty well... and you?

    It's obvious this conversation has run it's course when you are resorting to pointing out typo's and/or misspellings.
    I'll let the flames die.
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Let's play the HP game:

    What is the rate (based on something more than users of this forum) of adoption of homebrew on the Pre and Pixi?

    Unless we know those numbers, we don't know that "patching the Pre is part of the 'normal stock experience' of owning a Pre and/or Pixi"
    I agree!! Sorta....

    First, it wasn't my term, I just agreed with her general notion. I do agree that Homebrewing itself probably can't be called "normal" (I don't believe that most users do it, or even a large percentage, but that's just my anectdotal casual observation).

    That said, here's why I still believe her comment, in general, was true.

    Adding an application adds a program. Using a modification to the OS, even it's a built in customization, changes part of the OS's code. Modifying some Javascript in WebOS is really very similar to modifying an .INI file in Windows, a shell script in Linux, or any number of other modification files in other OSs. The method my be different, but the concept is still the same - modify a very small independent portion of a systme.

    Preware is simply an app that makes that customization easy.

    Again, Preware is an app. It's a very well written app granted, and it does a lot of very complex things, but it is an app.

    Yes, you have to go to an extra step to be able to install that app, but Palm made those extra steps possible.

    So, everything that Homebrew is doing was made possibly by Palm, and not through an accident, but by design.

    In that context, yes, it's normal. If you want to narrow things down and say "are the majority of Palm users using this particular application", probably not. However, I could find a ton of applications for other devices for which the same point could be made.

    Bottom line. The detractors are trying to pretend that homebrew is something exotic, difficult, and/or complex on the Pre. Possibly it is for those individuals, but I suspect most folks that have decided to try homebrew on the Palm devices have been successful.
  12. #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    It's called a typo... Please notice that I did not feel the need to stoop to the level of pointing out that you misspelled pejorative (twice)...

    I know what they both referenced. I'm following the conversation pretty well... and you?

    It's obvious this conversation has run it's course when you are resorting to pointing out typo's and/or misspellings.
    I'll let the flames die.
    Your assumptions are again incorrect. I did not point out a typo, I pointed out a very common mistake. (Did you really accidentally type "in" instead of "and"???? I mean, the keys aren't even close, I could understand an instead of and.... ) "By and large" is one of those phrases that's often said incorrectly. I'm an etymology fan, it's really interesting some of the phrases that get "changed".

    And, I wrote the "assuming" part because your sentence really was very difficult to comprehend. It wasn't until I got the "in" insteand of "and" that I began to figure out the flame.

    However, even at that, your post was incorrect. I don't spend a "majority" of my time, or even really a lot of it, just a few minutes a day. It's pretty easy to pop in, read a few messages, and pop out.

    I understand though, it's embarrassing when you try to make someone look foolish for doing the same thing you do.
  13. #193  
    I think if I preferred iPhone, I'd be on an iPhone forum and never have read this post.
  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I agree!! Sorta....

    First, it wasn't my term, I just agreed with her general notion. I do agree that Homebrewing itself probably can't be called "normal" (I don't believe that most users do it, or even a large percentage, but that's just my anectdotal casual observation).

    That said, here's why I still believe her comment, in general, was true.

    ................
    You are misrepresenting the purpose of that code being made available on webOS. It's purpose is intended to be used by developers (not end users)... Hence the reason it is called "development mode" and is only made public under the development section of Palm's website.

    Also, please note that Preware is a webOS application that is not available in the Official Palm App Catalog.
  15. #195  
    You say yourself that "most folks" (out of a total percentage of WebOS owners) don't homebrew at all. That means it's not usual, and unusual is simply another synonym for "exotic". "Difficult" and "complex" are synonyms for each other, and impossible to prove as an objective truth because they are relative to the user.

    Bottom line is that for something that's such an oft-cited key advantage of owning a Pre or Pixi, what does it say that even the majority of people who use the devices don't bother?
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    #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by jayhajj View Post
    I've played with friends iPhones and in stores and prefer WebOS. That said, if AT&T had a plan comparable to Sprint's Everything Data, I'd have an iPhone.

    The iPhone's ubiquity means it has apps I want that aren't on WebOS plus accessories and integration into other devices that I don't see WebOS ever having. Add more apps and some Palm-to-iPhone-dock interface and I'd prefer a WebOS phone. It would rock if said imaginary dock used the Bluetooth SPP profile so I didn't even need a physical connection to my WebOS phone.

    -Jay
    Yep, Webos is cool but the apps alone on the Iphone and the speed of the device regardless how simple it is makes it hard not to get.

    I'd get a iphone in a minute if it was as cheap as my plan with sprint.... no questions asked.

    Any smartphone can usually text, email and internet but I spend the money for the quality of the apps, that's whay keeps these smartphones interesting.

    Why pay over 100 a month on something like a Curve 8330? Doesn't make any sense at all.

    The pre is nice but if I had the extra money I'd gotten rid of it and gotta a Iphone or Droid X but I'd rather stick it out with Sprint.
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Your assumptions are again incorrect. I did not point out a typo, I pointed out a very common mistake. (Did you really accidentally type "in" instead of "and"???? I mean, the keys aren't even close, I could understand an instead of and.... ) "By and large" is one of those phrases that's often said incorrectly. I'm an etymology fan, it's really interesting some of the phrases that get "changed".

    And, I wrote the "assuming" part because your sentence really was very difficult to comprehend. It wasn't until I got the "in" insteand of "and" that I began to figure out the flame.

    However, even at that, your post was incorrect. I don't spend a "majority" of my time, or even really a lot of it, just a few minutes a day. It's pretty easy to pop in, read a few messages, and pop out.

    I understand though, it's embarrassing when you try to make someone look foolish for doing the same thing you do.
    I'm not embarrassed at all. I made a "language" error. I'm man enough to admit that.

    And again, since you constantly need things explained...

    Odd for someone who by AND large spends a majority of their time on these forums offering their opinion on the merits of webOS and the Pre when compared to other mobile OS/devices...

    That means that a majority of your time spent on these forums... is spent (in the cross platform forum) offering your opinion on the merits of webOS and the Pre when compared to other mobile OS/devices... Granted... a "majority" of that time is spent being "deliberately obtuse".

    Have a great day. I'll see you tomorrow... as I think you are over your 5 min quota for the day.

    PS: You misspelled instead... and n is not anywhere close to a or d on the keyboard.
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    It's called a typo... Please notice that I did not feel the need to stoop to the level of pointing out that you misspelled pejorative (twice)...
    Except you did. You didn't mention twice, but I'm assuming that was the reason for the quotation marks:
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    ...
    I.E. Not necessary on other devices. That could very easily lead to "pejorative" remarks... No?
    .
    And, being perfectly honest, I had to look back 2 or 3 times to realize I incorrectly added the extra "r". I stand corrected. (See, it's really not that hard to admit a mistake... give it a shot sometime).
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post
    You are misrepresenting the purpose of that code being made available on webOS. It's purpose is intended to be used by developers (not end users)... Hence the reason it is called "development mode" and is only made public under the development section of Palm's website.

    Also, please note that Preware is a webOS application that is not available in the Official Palm App Catalog.
    Sorry you see it that way; however, it's not part of the NDA, and Palm has openly encouraged the homebrew community (which must use the mentioned code). Have you checked with them before telling me I'm wrong?
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    (See, it's really not that hard to admit a mistake... give it a shot sometime).
    Hmm, seems I'm still one step ahead of you~~~

    Actually... maybe two...
    Last edited by gmanvbva; 07/28/2010 at 02:09 PM.
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