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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    What high end stuff are you talking about? I had interest in Voodoo before HP bought and ruined them, but I definitely find the Envy line of notebooks to be appealing.

    In looking at their higher end lineup I can see how they do make good stuff, but to the average consumer then there is nothing that really makes them stand out other than the low disposable system price (or those Vera Wang designer netbooks Slapping a butterfly on a pink lid and selingl it for $599 actually works)
    Urkel,

    Go to the HP website, and instead of looking at the "Home and Home Office" (which is where the Envy is) go to the "Small and Medium Business" section. That is where the better quality hardware is (in my extensive experience).

    There is no argument that HP has at some levels chosen to make their scratch by selling cheap 'disposable' products. But as you have noted, that is what the masses respond to. It doesn't mean they are incapable of making better. (I've had to almost beg users to go with an Elite over Presario because the Presario is 'prettier' - and these are otherwise bright people.

    In business, their switches, servers, and workstations are very reliable and I have used literally thousands of them all over the country.

    Is marketing a problem? Sure, as it is for Palm, Lenovo, and many others. But the subject questioned HP's quality, not marketing savvy. Their business class laptops are not 'sexy' but they work. 'High End' (for me) refers to the quality of the product as much as the features.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    Kind of a stupid use of statistics... for the following reasons:

    1) Until one of these companies sends me a check, I'm not a PRPRPR $flack$ $for$ $either$ $of$ $them$ $and$ $you$ $shouldn$'$t$ $be$ $either$ ($unless$ $you$ $ARE$ $getting$ $paid$)

    2) HP typically doesn't sell their high end stuff via retail (that is what business to business means)

    3) Apple is the sole distributor of Mac OS based hardware. HP is one of many windows based systems. To be an equivalent comparison, you'd have to add up all non Apple based over $1000 laptops.

    4) If we are going to be far and non-selective, why not do a similar comparison with business sales? The comparison would fall apart there.

    5) What percentage of total devices in each OS type can be had for less than $1000 dollars and what can you do with a less that $1000 Macbook? Really?

    6) How do we even know your statistics are accurate?

    Again, not that I care, (I think Apple makes good laptops as does HP with their business lines especially) but since you riffed on my post and came with such a weak argument; I owed it to the forum to respond.
    1) Disagree completely. It is a very interesting statistic even if you don't work for Apple.

    2) That was the point of my post. High end Windows stuff apparently doesn't sell well to consumers.

    3) The statistic doesn't compare Apple with HP, it compares Apple with all other PC manufacturers combined (or to put it another way Mac vs Windows).
    So the number includes all those fancy Windows laptops sold to consumers.

    4) We all already know that outside a few 'creative' niches, the Apple Mac does not sell to mainstream business users.

    5) Again, we all know that Apple doesn't really compete in the low cost consumer space. That said the $1000 Macbook looks decent enough for a basic Mac OS laptop (2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 2GB DDR3 memory 250GB hard drive). The other sub $1000 Mac is the Mac Mini BTW.

    I don't know how accurate the stats are but you can judge for yourself :

    Nine out of 10 premium-priced PCs sold at US retail is a Mac | Betanews

    It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Apple doesn't sell low cost computers to consumers or any computers at all to businesses (outside of the 'creative' fields). What surprised me was how badly the PC vendors are doing selling high end Windows machines to consumers.

    I can think of a few reasons why though:

    1) There are lots of cheap PCs in the market
    2) The network of Apple stores does a better job selling high end stuff than Best Buy.
    3) The iPhone 'halo' effect (drives lots of Apple Store traffic).
    4) The Windows PC makers don't try to market the good stuff to consumers because of 1.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    1) Disagree completely. It is a very interesting statistic even if you don't work for Apple.

    2) That was the point of my post. High end Windows stuff apparently doesn't sell well to consumers.

    3) The statistic doesn't compare Apple with HP, it compares Apple with all other PC manufacturers combined (or to put it another way Mac vs Windows).
    So the number includes all those fancy Windows laptops sold to consumers.

    4) We all already know that outside a few 'creative' niches, the Apple Mac does not sell to mainstream business users.


    5) Again, we all know that Apple doesn't really compete in the low cost consumer space. That said the $1000 Macbook looks decent enough for a basic Mac OS laptop (2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 2GB DDR3 memory 250GB hard drive). The other sub $1000 Mac is the Mac Mini BTW.

    I don't know how accurate the stats are but you can judge for yourself :

    Nine out of 10 premium-priced PCs sold at US retail is a Mac | Betanews

    It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Apple doesn't sell low cost computers to consumers or any computers at all to businesses (outside of the 'creative' fields). What surprised me was how badly the PC vendors are doing selling high end Windows machines to consumers.

    I can think of a few reasons why though:

    1) There are lots of cheap PCs in the market
    2) The network of Apple stores does a better job selling high end stuff than Best Buy.
    3) The iPhone 'halo' effect (drives lots of Apple Store traffic).
    4) The Windows PC makers don't try to market the good stuff to consumers because of 1.
    And this is a surprise because of...? Consumers typically buy the least expensive product which meets their needs (not all, but the vast majority). If a $600 Windows laptop meets their needs, that is what they will buy. And why do you think those 'blasted' netbooks are so popular?

    It wasn't that long ago the a Wintel laptop was a minimum of $1500 and people gladly bought them at that price. Economy of scale has made them cheaper - unless you would argue that the laptop hardware today is inferior to a early 2000 laptop.

    If Apple sold as many laptops, their prices will scale down comparably (unless they were held up artificially - a closed ecosystem will have that affect).

    I'm by no means a Micro$oft fan (you would have to know me), but it 's silly to turn a basic matter of economics into anything else.


    PS: If you read the whole article, it entirely supports that point.
  4. #84  
    Because a laptop is sub $1000 doesn't mean it's less capable spec wise compared to a Macbook Pro. Consumers probably dont spend a lot on expensive Windows laptops simply because they dont have to. It's no secret PCs generally offer more value per dollar. Being a monopoly, Apple has the luxury of charging more for less.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Because a laptop is sub $1000 doesn't mean it's less capable spec wise compared to a Macbook Pro. Consumers probably dont spend a lot on expensive Windows laptops simply because they dont have to. It's no secret PCs generally offer more value per dollar. Being a monopoly, Apple has the luxury of charging more for less.
    Darreno1,

    I can neither confirm nor deny your statements I have no problem with either platform depending on the needs I have on a given project.

    The problem is there are so many pundits getting paid by the column, it is
    inevitable that some poorly reasoned article is written. Then, it becomes fact once it is regurgitated by some clueless editor, and like a Gulf of Mexico oil slick, it gets swept into the mainstream media.

    The questions always comes down to whom do they work for, where do their loyalties lie, who pays for advertising on their website or in their magazine.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    That might be why 90% of retail (store and web) computer sales over $1000 are Apple Macs and not HPs.
    That's because you cannot buy a complete Macintosh (of any sort) for under $1,000.

    And you're hard-pressed to buy a competitive complete PC (of any sort) for over $1,000.

    For instance, the poorly-built plastic MacBook is about $1,000. The comparable Toshiba (with similar or better build quality) is $499.

    A perfectly serviceable HP or Dell machine with specs similar to the "high end" MacBooks is around $999.

    In order to get a machine over $1,000 on the PC side, you have to opt for very high end systems from HP (ENVY) or Dell (Adamo or Studio XPS). And those systems outperform any Mac you can buy, at any price.
  7. #87  
    Yeah that article is making a huge assumption: that premium price = premium value. In the real world especially when comparing across manufacturers and models, that often isn't the case.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  8. #88  
    That article is making no such assumption. It's just showing that the only company that can sell a lot of computers over $1000 to consumers is Apple.

    One major negative for Apple is they appear to have saturated the market for high end consumer PCs. Hard to see much growth potential for them in that market.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    That's because you cannot buy a complete Macintosh (of any sort) for under $1,000.

    And you're hard-pressed to buy a competitive complete PC (of any sort) for over $1,000.

    For instance, the poorly-built plastic MacBook is about $1,000. The comparable Toshiba (with similar or better build quality) is $499.
    So if Apple makes machine with a plastic shell it is poorly built, if anyone else does it is great. BTW Whatever the limitations of the $1000 laptop, it is still a complete system so your first statement is complete nonsense.

    As for Toshiba, I bought my wife one a few years ago. It was complete garbage and fell apart just after the warranty expired. For me $499 is too high a price to pay for any sort of laptop from Toshiba. They are on my "don't buy ever" list along with Dell. We did have some luck with an HP but sub $1000 ones don't look any better built than the Toshibas. The business class ones are excellent though.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    That article is making no such assumption. It's just showing that the only company that can sell a lot of computers over $1000 to consumers is Apple.
    That's because they are a monopoly and none of their computers are under $1000. What's so hard to understand about that? And the word premium is generally used to denote superiority in terms of quality so yes they are making that assumption as do most pro- mac advocates.
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  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Here's where you line-up to get the latest HP hardware:

    yeah and so what ? most wealthy people ,believe it or not are very thrifty to say the least and if walmart and sams carry the next gen phone , well im sure they will sell alot of them !
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  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post

    As for Toshiba, I bought my wife one a few years ago. It was complete garbage and fell apart just after the warranty expired. For me $499 is too high a price to pay for any sort of laptop from Toshiba. They are on my "don't buy ever" list along with Dell. We did have some luck with an HP but sub $1000 ones don't look any better built than the Toshibas. The business class ones are excellent though.
    And we are supposed to assume your wife took care of it as best as she could have? The countless Toshibas I've come accross over the years have been great from the cheap to the expensive as well as Lenovo and Dell. Of course once in a while a lemon will show up but in my experience the majority of physical damage occurences have been from abuse.
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  13. urkel's Avatar
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    For instance, the poorly-built plastic MacBook is about $1,000. The comparable Toshiba (with similar or better build quality) is $499.
    Good Grief. The more you talk the more you reveal to everyone how little experience you have with these products that you slam.

    There are several legitimate criticisms on the current $1000 Macbook, but you went with "build quality"??? It's a unibody polycarbonate shell, so in what ways have you experienced "build quality" issues? In fact, Ill give you a freebie and you can make up a fictional story about how a new Macbook broke due to the poor build quality. You dont even have to say the requisite "It wouldnt have happened with a high end Windows notebook" because im sure people would be happy just seeing your scenario on how to realistically break a Macbook. I'll even start you off with the standard liars intro:

    "Its true. I had a friend that owned one and...."
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    And we are supposed to assume your wife took care of it as best as she could have? The countless Toshibas I've come accross over the years have been great from the cheap to the expensive as well as Lenovo and Dell. Of course once in a while a lemon will show up but in my experience the majority of physical damage occurences have been from abuse.
    My wife is not the most gentle person with laptops. That said, based on my internet research at the time, the problems with the Toshiba were due to defects in the design and manufacture of the product.

    You can buy all the Toshibas and Dell laptops you want. They won't be getting any more of my money.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    yeah and so what ? most wealthy people ,believe it or not are very thrifty to say the least and if walmart and sams carry the next gen phone , well im sure they will sell alot of them !
    Actually I don't believe it. There are a lot of wealthy people in the part of the country I live in and they seem to enjoy their multi-million dollar apartments and houses (with the absurdly expensive sub zero fridges) and expensive German cars. Some of them pay $700 a month just to keep a car in Manhattan which doesn't seem that thrifty to me. Some of the stores on Fifth Avenue sell $1000 sweaters which seems absurd to me (amusingly though, the Fifth Avenue Apple store is the highest grossing store per square foot in the area).
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    My wife is not the most gentle person with laptops. That said, based on my internet research at the time, the problems with the Toshiba were due to defects in the design and manufacture of the product.

    You can buy all the Toshibas and Dell laptops you want. They won't be getting any more of my money.
    LOL, well you are certainly entitled to do what you wish with your cash. At least you admitted your wife can be abusive. Most people will never admit to that - it's always the product's fault.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    LOL, well you are certainly entitled to do what you wish with your cash. At least you admitted your wife can be abusive. Most people will never admit to that - it's always the product's fault.
    I definitely wish my wife was more careful with her electronic equipment. That said, all laptops need to be somewhat resistant to abuse. Her current laptop is a cheap Windows XP net book but it's replacement may be one of the cheaper mac books. They incorporate several design elements that address weak points in most laptops, a magnetic catch for the lid and power cable for example.
  18. urkel's Avatar
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    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I definitely wish my wife was more careful with her electronic equipment. That said, all laptops need to be somewhat resistant to abuse. Her current laptop is a cheap Windows XP net book but it's replacement may be one of the cheaper mac books. They incorporate several design elements that address weak points in most laptops, a magnetic catch for the lid and power cable for example.
    Despite what people will say about Macs, I switched my wife to Mac but kept mom on cheaper Win machines and they're both happy.

    Wife: Got a unibody aluminum Macbook. She was hesitant because as an accountant she relies heavily on Windows but I put in BootCamp and VMWare so she could switch. That lasted a month because she found she could do pretty much anything she needed on the Mac side. Yes. The initial cost is more but it's not as crazy as some lead you to believe and (in y experience) they're more durable so they last longer. Oh, and the magnetic power cable has come in handy several times.

    Mom: She breaks everything and still can't learn the basics (cut paste/control panel etc). I considered a Mac but I feel the "ease of use" claim isn't true and I didn't want to spend so much. So for the last 7 years I get her a $400 "disposable" notebook and just let her beat it up.

    Both sides worked out great and eliminated a lot of my "support calls". So everyones happy.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Mom: She breaks everything and still can't learn the basics (cut paste/control panel etc). I considered a Mac but I feel the "ease of use" claim isn't true and I didn't want to spend so much. So for the last 7 years I get her a $400 "disposable" notebook and just let her beat it up.

    Both sides worked out great and eliminated a lot of my "support calls". So everyones happy.
    Maybe your Mom is a candidate for one of the cheaper iPads. As far as the ease of use claim goes, I haven't been using a Mac for long (a couple of weeks) but I am finding it doesn't get in the way like Windows does.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I definitely wish my wife was more careful with her electronic equipment. That said, all laptops need to be somewhat resistant to abuse. Her current laptop is a cheap Windows XP net book but it's replacement may be one of the cheaper mac books. They incorporate several design elements that address weak points in most laptops, a magnetic catch for the lid and power cable for example.
    I think it would be far better and cheaper for you in the long run if your wife changed her habits. I myself carried around a sub $600.00 lenovo notebook with me for the last 3 or so years and it still looks and works like brand new. Banging around a Macbook isn't advisable either unless she can afford to lose a hard disk or replace a screen. Unless it has a toughbook design, laptops are supposed to be treated gently period. And by gently I dont mean babying them constantly but with consideration for the hard disk inside and the screen / hinges. By far the most frequent physical issues we run into with notebooks are dying or dead hard disks though.
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