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  1. #61  
    I'm sure Palm/HP will release several phones at several different price points on as many carriers as they can. So long as plenty of them land on ATT I'm happy.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    LOL. I guess you're one of those people that see a Aston Martin and say it just has a fancy body. Totally ignoring all the engineering and attention to detail that separates it from a Ford Taurus.
    Same with Apple, it's the attention to detail that separates them from the rest of the cheap PCs. Like the fact that they have had backlit keyboard for years on their laptops and to this day just a couple of PC manufacturers have started doing that, although that is a great feature to have when you're in a low light situation.

    Or, actually go look at a 15" MacBook Pro and compare to the typical cheap plastic PC laptop. Go look at the typical particle board computer desk and compare it to a real wood computer desk and tell if they are the same? One costs more because it is built with better materials. Like the Macs have an aluminum case and the typical PC laptop is made of plastic. Hence, why Apple is considered a premium product.

    I also suggest you go to ifixit.com and look at any of the tear downs of the Apple stuff and compare it's insides to that of any PC. There is a difference. If you can't see it, then that's your loss. The finer details are typically lost on the average person.
    The fact that you're even putting an Aston and Macbook Pro on the same plane is laughable. My point was the guts are pretty much the same. An Aston is an Aston inside out, HUUUUUUUGE difference. The hard drives, the mainboards, the CPUs, graphics CHIPs, chipsets, peripheral cards and flat panels that power a Macbook Pro are made in the same fashion, according to similar specs and in many cases by the same companies as those used in other laptops. When they were powered by PowerPCs, you might have had a leg to stand on. Drop a Macbook Pro and while you might escape some cosmetic damage from the metal casing you STILL run the risk of a cracked screen, damaged hard disk etc just like any other laptop except for maybe a Toughbook or one with a solid state HDD or tempered glass.

    Yeah the metal casing is a nice touch, but it does not necessarily make it any more bulletproof nor should it cost hundreds more. Same for a backlit keyboard. I myself as well as a myriad of people I know do just fine with plastic cases.

    Seems to me you're mostly concerned with what's on the outside, like a lot Mac users in general. As for your attention to detail comments. Well I pay attention when they're worth it and really matter to me, not just because.


    Apple - Support - Discussions - MacBook hard drive failure epidemic ...

    Apple cops to defective MacBook drives • reghardware

    MacBook Pro: Distorted video or no video issues

    ^the nice metal cases really help don't they? So much for 'premium'!






    Ah, the typical myth about Microsoft bailing out Apple. Clueless...

    The 150 million dollars Microsoft gave Apple was a settlement for Apple to drop a lawsuit against Microsoft. Why don't you read the below facts about the Microsoft $150 million. Read the article carefully since you seem to have a problem with details. You know, not being able to see the quality in Apple versus a generic laptop.



    So, Apple at that time had $1.2 billion in the bank. So, please tell me how a measly $150 million bailout (the MYTH) was going to help Apple? Although I do find it funny that in 1997 Apple had $1.2 billion dollars in cash at it's lowest point and today in 2010 the whole company of Palm and the $500 million it had in cash was sold to HP for $1.2 billion. Shows you how low in value Palm had fallen.

    This was how I remembered it back then:


    The Apple of Microsoft's Eye - Editorial - NYTimes.com


    Apple sees open Gates, raises Jobs' status and accepts Microsoft's cash -- Government Computer News

    Don't know who to believe, sorry. At that time it was all over the news as a bailout. And I distinctly remember Apple being in the red quarter after quarter.
    Last edited by darreno1; 05/19/2010 at 07:42 PM.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    The fact that you're even putting an Aston and Macbook Pro on the same plane is laughable. My point was the guts are pretty much the same. An Aston is an Aston inside out, HUUUUUUUGE difference. The hard drives, the mainboards, the CPUs, graphics CHIPs, chipsets, peripheral cards and flat panels that power a Macbook Pro are made in the same fashion, according to similar specs and in many cases by the same companies as those used in other laptops. When they were powered by PowerPCs, you might have had a leg to stand on. Drop a Macbook Pro and while you might escape some cosmetic damage from the metal casing you STILL run the risk of a cracked screen, damaged hard disk etc just like any other laptop except for maybe a Toughbook or one with a solid state HDD or tempered glass.

    Yeah the metal casing is a nice touch, but it does not necessarily make it any more bulletproof nor should it cost hundreds more. Same for a backlit keyboard. I myself as well as a myriad of people I know do just fine with plastic cases.

    Seems to me you're mostly concerned with what's on the outside, like a lot Mac users in general. As for your attention to detail comments. Well I pay attention when they're worth it and really matter to me, not just because.








    This was how I remembered it back then:


    The Apple of Microsoft's Eye - Editorial - NYTimes.com


    Apple sees open Gates, raises Jobs' status and accepts Microsoft's cash -- Government Computer News

    Don't know who to believe, sorry. At that time it was all over the news as a bailout. And I distinctly remember Apple being in the red quarter after quarter.
    I guess you have never seen the video on Apple's website where their laptops are machined from a solid piece of aluminum. Thus, making the laptop feel very solid, yet very light. Compared to how a typical PC is put together from many parts and it feels all loose after a small amount of time of owning one compared to a Mac. The difference is significant enough that it justifies the comparison to a high quality car like an Aston Martin.

    There are differences such as Apple doesn't accept LCD panels with as many dead pixels as the typical PC manufacturer. Their trackpads are of much higher quality than the typical PCs and has more functions. Their screen actually automatically change brightness based on the lighting overhead. Their batteries are engineered better because they can't be easily replaced. They demand higher quality in their parts than the average PC manufacturer.

    The hard drive probably wouldn't be damaged because they have a feature in them that when it senses it is going to be dropped, it moves the head away from the platters.

    And many people do just fine in a Ford. But, there are plenty of people that want more. That's why Apple and Aston Martin make products for the consumers that want to spend more to get a better product. Furthermore, Apple has been compared to BMW many times by all kinds of people in the press. BMW or Aston Martin, both are above the typical car.

    And no, I actually care about the OS. If I strictly cared about what's on the outside, I would be a fan of Sony because they also make nice stuff, but they use Windows, so it's a no go.

    As for those articles you post. Typical hit pieces. Does it really take a genius to realize that $150 million is not going to save a huge corporation. It doesn't take much effort to research how much money Apple had back then. With the amount of money Apple had back then, 1.2 billion, $150 million was not going to do anything for them.

    Amazing, you believe an article that just doesn't make sense when there were plenty other articles out there that actually explained the truth.
    Last edited by SoFly; 05/19/2010 at 07:33 PM.
  4. #64  
    [QUOTE=SoFly;2463028]
    There are differences such as Apple doesn't accept LCD panels with as many dead pixels as the typical PC manufacturer. Their trackpads are of much higher quality than the typical PCs and has more functions. Their screen actually automatically change brightness based on the lighting overhead. Their batteries are engineered better because they can't be easily replaced. They demand higher quality in their parts than the average PC manufacturer.

    The hard drive probably wouldn't be damaged because they have a feature in them that when it senses it is going to be dropped, it moves the head away from the platters.
    LOL, all those features (except for the battery - because most manufacturers aren't that greedy to design a battery only they can replace) can be found in mid-range to high end laptops today. The head parking feature has been around forever as well as the dynamic brightness function. Also I can't remember the last time I saw a dead pixel on a laptop or even a modern flat panel to be honest. I have used countless Macbooks Pros belonging to various customers, and their trackpads never stood out as anything high quality. They felt just the same as any other laptop.

    http://discussions.apple.com/thread....art=0&tstart=0


    MacBook Pro: Distorted video or no video issues

    Apple cops to defective MacBook drives € reghardware



    ^^So much for the 'Aston Martin'. Granted those are from a few years back but the fact remains: They can and do break just like any other laptop.
    Last edited by darreno1; 05/19/2010 at 08:04 PM. Reason: grammar
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  5. #65  
    Oh please, people.

    Apple hardware isn't any "better" than generic PC hardware. Most laptops -- including Apple's -- are made from the same components in the same factories in China by the same manufacturers.

    HP's ENVY line of laptops are also "machined from a solid block of aluminum," have faster processors, more RAM, more graphics memory and better video chipsets, and cost well under a MacBook Pro with lower features.

    Macs are just PC clones with a HUGE markup slapped on top these days. There's nothing "unique" or "special" about them, and there hasn't been since Apple dropped PowerPC five years ago.

    HP ENVY or Dell Studio hardware runs "hacked" OS X faster than any Apple laptop -- the best machine to run Mac OS is the fastest Intel box you can buy. Then again, there's not much of a point to OS X, since most major developers have either ceased development for Mac OS or delayed it until well after Windows releases.

    With Windows 7 providing a more stable, higher quality experience than OS X, what's the point? Other than religious fervor, anyway. (And I say that as a former Mac guy).
  6. #66  
    [QUOTE=darreno1;2463118]
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    LOL, all those features (except for the battery - because most manufacturers aren't that greedy to design a battery only they can replace) can be found in mid-range to high end laptops today. The head parking feature has been around forever as well as the dynamic brightness function. Also I can't remember the last time I saw a dead pixel on a laptop or even a modern flat panel to be honest. I have used countless Macbooks Pros belonging to various customers, and their trackpads never stood out as anything high quality. They felt just the same as any other laptop.
    We placed an order for new laptops at work. Actually HP laptops. We ordered 275. Guess how many extra batteries we order. 7. You know why? Because they are extras in case a battery becomes defective and needs to be replaced. NOT because people are demanding an extra battery for longer battery life. Apple knows this and decided to use the extra space that the latch takes up for extra battery capacity so that the laptop will last longer on a battery. Also, you can change the battery in a Mac laptop if you want. Apple just recommends that they do it. It costs $129 for Apple to do it. Just like it cost $139 each for those 7 extra HP laptop batteries.

    For the head parking feature, if you happen to buy a laptop that has a hard drive that doesn't have that technology you're SOL. Apple has a Sudden Motion Sensor that's actually built into the laptop. There is a difference.

    We have all kinds of laptops at work and none of them have the auto brightness capability that the Macs have had forever.

    Buy 275 laptops at once and you will see all kinds of weird issues pop up like dead pixels etc.

    People at work actually rave about the Apple trackpad where you actually click just about anywhere on the trackpad and it accepts the click. Or two fingers and a right -click anywhere on the trackpad. Unlike, the HP Envy which seems to have a buttonless trackpad, EXCEPT you still have to click in the lower left or lower right to click on something. Not the same as the Mac. It's not until you've used the Mac like that, that it sucks to go to a PC where you have to make sure to click on the trackpad in the same spot. So, they are not the same.


    So, you provided links about people having issues about an Apple product. Any manufacture is going to have defective equipment that needs warranty work.

    I didn't know Apple made hard drives.



    ^^So much for the 'Aston Martin'. Granted those are from a few years back but the fact remains: They can and do break just like any other laptop.
    I guess you have never owned a British car. They are some of the most unreliable cars on the planet. Honda reliability they are not.

    I used Aston Martin as an example of a manufacturer that makes cars that uses high quality interiors in their cars, etc. Meaning if you are going to start a taxi company you are not going to buy a fleet of Aston Martins because of the cost. Just like a business is not going to buy it's employees 275 15" $2500 MacBook Pros for email and word processing. We bought them $699 HPs instead.
  7. #67  
    Oh dear. Are Apple people trying to argue that touch-to-click trackpads and hard-drive-parking-on-motion technology are unique to Apple?

    Seriously?

    I don't think you can buy a Wintel notebook -- even a super-low-end one -- that doesn't have both, standard.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Oh dear. Are Apple people trying to argue that touch-to-click trackpads and hard-drive-parking-on-motion technology are unique to Apple?

    Seriously?

    I don't think you can buy a Wintel notebook -- even a super-low-end one -- that doesn't have both, standard.
    Although I said I would never respond to anymore of your posts...

    As I look in the user manual for the HP Envy,

    http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c01933145.pdf

    On page two of the user guide it shows that the left click and right click needs to accomplished by EXPLICITLY CLICKING OR TOUCHING IN THE LOWER LEFT OR LOWER RIGHT ON THE TRACK PAD. As I originally said in my previous post. On the MacBook Pro you don't need to do that. You can click or touch anywhere on the trackpad to do a left or right click.

    Although I assume you can double click anywhere on the trackpad, how do you do a right click or touch with out having to go to the lower right corner?

    As for the motion sensor feature when a laptop is dropped. Not all PCs have that built into the laptop. So, if you happen to get some cheap hard drive that doesn't have the sensor that says "Hey, I'm being dropped. Let me move the head away from the platters" the hard drive can get damaged. I think you are confusing the park feature of hard drive that moves the head off the platter when the laptop is being turned off. That's not the same as the Sudden Motion Sensor in the MacBook Pro.

    We have replaced enough hard drives in laptops that have been damaged from being dropped to know that that feature is not in all laptop and/or hard drives.
    Last edited by SoFly; 05/20/2010 at 07:20 PM.
  9. #69  
    Another pointless Apple vs PC debate. Why can't both sides just and recognize an OS is just an OS and people are allowed to have their preferences for whatever reasons they have. They both accomplish the same end result for everyone by making the 1's and 0's appear as something tangible. Thank god for Linux, Windows, and Macs.

    As far as the original topic of this thread goes, Palm/HP will have to make their phones high spec'd if they want to keep relevant in both the consumer and business market. Android has obviously hit a new phase in it's existence with Froyo where it is starting to be the trailblazer instead of catching up to the iphone and WebOS. WebOS is too intense of an OS to pack it onto some phone that can't take advantage of what the OS can do. I think HP isn't talking about smartphones too much because it goes without saying that a mobile OS for tablets, printers, or whatever is perfect for phones too.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Oh dear. Are Apple people trying to argue that touch-to-click trackpads and hard-drive-parking-on-motion technology are unique to Apple?

    Seriously?

    I don't think you can buy a Wintel notebook -- even a super-low-end one -- that doesn't have both, standard.
    Push-to-click trackpads where the entire trackpad is a tactile button? That's unique to Apple MacBooks last I heard. I've never seen a WinTel notebook-- even a super-high-end one -- that has one.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post

    We placed an order for new laptops at work. Actually HP laptops. We ordered 275. Guess how many extra batteries we order. 7. You know why? Because they are extras in case a battery becomes defective and needs to be replaced. NOT because people are demanding an extra battery for longer battery life. Apple knows this and decided to use the extra space that the latch takes up for extra battery capacity so that the laptop will last longer on a battery. Also, you can change the battery in a Mac laptop if you want. Apple just recommends that they do it. It costs $129 for Apple to do it. Just like it cost $139 each for those 7 extra HP laptop batteries.
    Again, I'm not sure what's your point here. Many laptops support extra capacity batteries that are removable. And yeah you probably can remove it yourself on a Macbook Pro but not without a headache and more than likely, a voided warranty. Besides, Apple knows the average Mac user isn't going to even try.



    For the head parking feature, if you happen to buy a laptop that has a hard drive that doesn't have that technology you're SOL. Apple has a Sudden Motion Sensor that's actually built into the laptop. There is a difference.
    Apple calls it sudden motion sensor. PCs manufacturers call theirs active hard drive protection. IT'S BASICALLY THE SAME THING.

    Active hard drive protection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I still fail to see your point. For almost half the price of a Macbook Pro you can have a laptop that support it.

    We have all kinds of laptops at work and none of them have the auto brightness capability that the Macs have had forever.
    Then you certainly don't have ''all kinds of laptops". If you did you would have run into a few with that capability. You can find ambient light sensors in many models from Dell, Hp, Lenovo, Sony etc.


    Buy 275 laptops at once and you will see all kinds of weird issues pop up like dead pixels etc.
    Yeah, just like with any piece of hardware, as you rightly acknowledged, some will have defects however we rent and repair laptops in large quantities and I can't remember the last time dead pixels were an issue.


    People at work actually rave about the Apple trackpad where you actually click just about anywhere on the trackpad and it accepts the click. Or two fingers and a right -click anywhere on the trackpad. Unlike, the HP Envy which seems to have a buttonless trackpad, EXCEPT you still have to click in the lower left or lower right to click on something. Not the same as the Mac. It's not until you've used the Mac like that, that it sucks to go to a PC where you have to make sure to click on the trackpad in the same spot. So, they are not the same.

    You can setup just about any trackpad to accept a double or single click by tapping anywhere on it. I do it all the time. For the right click I usually prefer the button anyway. Seems like a subjective thing to me and nothing I would praise a Macbook Pro for. Trying to get a right click to register is such a pain in the *** on their trackpad. To be honest Apple has never really impressed me with their peripherals especially that crappy one-button mouse. Give me any logitech ergonomic mouse and I'm happy.



    Any manufacture is going to have defective equipment that needs warranty work.
    Well I'm glad I was actually able to get my point across.






    .
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  12. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    You can setup just about any trackpad to accept a double or single click by tapping anywhere on it. I do it all the time. For the right click I usually prefer the button anyway. Seems like a subjective thing to me and nothing I would praise a Macbook Pro for. Trying to get a right click to register is such a pain in the *** on their trackpad. To be honest Apple has never really impressed me with their peripherals especially that crappy one-button mouse. Give me any logitech ergonomic mouse and I'm happy.
    .
    I get the impression you haven't used an Apple notebook in a while. I can right click on my MacBook Pro by tapping the trackpad with two fingers. I can also click down on the lower right corner of the trackpad (where a conventional button would be) to accomplish the same thing.

    Apple hasn't made a single button mouse in 5 years.
  13. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    I get the impression you haven't used an Apple notebook in a while. I can right click on my MacBook Pro by tapping the trackpad with two fingers. I can also click down on the lower right corner of the trackpad (where a conventional button would be) to accomplish the same thing.

    Apple hasn't made a single button mouse in 5 years.
    Yeah I have used them (Macbook Pro) and I think their trackpads suck when it comes to right clicking. Yes I'm well aware you can click down on the right corner (that's the intuitive way to do it) and if you're lucky it will actually work the first time. I wasn't aware of the two finger tap but it's still pretty r*tarded IMO and about as unintuitive as it gets. I never had a problem with a separate button, NONE!

    And they still make that stupid rounded mouse that isn't very far removed from the original one button. In fact it might as well be since the 2 tiny buttons might as well not be there:



    And yes I know you can click to one side and get a right click but it's uncomfortable and unintuitive.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  14. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    And they still make that stupid rounded mouse that isn't very far removed from the original one button. In fact it might as well be since the 2 tiny buttons might as well not be there:



    And yes I know you can click to one side and get a right click but it's uncomfortable and unintuitive.
    I'm not sure how the Mighty Mouse is unintuitive. You click the left side of the surface for a left mouse click. You click the right side for a right mouse click. What's the problem?
  15. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    I'm not sure how the Mighty Mouse is unintuitive. You click the left side of the surface for a left mouse click. You click the right side for a right mouse click. What's the problem?
    It feels more natural to me to have buttons to click. We're obviously getting into a subjective area here but I'm far from the only one who thinks this design sucks for lack of a better word. Especially after having used a comfortably contoured MS or Logitech mouse.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  16. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Push-to-click trackpads where the entire trackpad is a tactile button? That's unique to Apple MacBooks last I heard. I've never seen a WinTel notebook-- even a super-high-end one -- that has one.
    Every Wintel notebook allows "tap to click."

    It's not a tactile button, but even that is inconsistent. Apple people insist that tactile buttons are "obsolete" when it comes to smartphones, but mandatory when it comes to trackpads.

    On any Wintel laptop, tap to click, two finger tap to right click, right side to scroll vertically, and bottom side to scroll horizontally have been standard features *forever*. Apple's "click" is a gimmicky spin on an ancient Wintel feature that's existed on PCs for far longer than on Macs.
  17. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    Most people who call HP hardware crappy are seeing only their consumer grade stuff. I've purchased a number of their high end laptops including the ones in this post. They are not bad at all! Most of those are never seen in stores and only in Business to Business settings.
    That might be why 90% of retail (store and web) computer sales over $1000 are Apple Macs and not HPs.
  18. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    That might be why 90% of retail (store and web) computer sales over $1000 are Apple Macs and not HPs.
    Kind of a stupid use of statistics... for the following reasons:

    1) Until one of these companies sends me a check, I'm not a PRPRPR $flack$ $for$ $either$ $of$ $them$ $and$ $you$ $shouldn$'$t$ $be$ $either$ ($unless$ $you$ $ARE$ $getting$ $paid$)

    2) HP typically doesn't sell their high end stuff via retail (that is what business to business means)

    3) Apple is the sole distributor of Mac OS based hardware. HP is one of many windows based systems. To be an equivalent comparison, you'd have to add up all non Apple based over $1000 laptops.

    4) If we are going to be far and non-selective, why not do a similar comparison with business sales? The comparison would fall apart there.

    5) What percentage of total devices in each OS type can be had for less than $1000 dollars and what can you do with a less that $1000 Macbook? Really?

    6) How do we even know your statistics are accurate?

    Again, not that I care, (I think Apple makes good laptops as does HP with their business lines especially) but since you riffed on my post and came with such a weak argument; I owed it to the forum to respond.
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    2) HP typically doesn't sell their high end stuff via retail (that is what business to business means)
    What high end stuff are you talking about? I had interest in Voodoo before HP bought and ruined them, but I definitely find the Envy line of notebooks to be appealing. I've seen Envy notebooks at retail stores but they don't look like they sell well because HP created this reputation of being a "middle ground and disposable electronics company". I know many people who buy a new HP Printer rather than an HP Refill because of how close the pricing is, and Im guilty of buying my mom an annual $400 notebook (sometimes HP) rather than bothering to fix/upgrade what she's currently destroying.

    In looking at their higher end lineup I can see how they do make good stuff, but to the average consumer then there is nothing that really makes them stand out other than the low disposable system price (or those Vera Wang designer netbooks Slapping a butterfly on a pink lid and selingl it for $599 actually works)
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