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  1. #141  
    LOL!!! So how much lower should I have set my expectations? I mean, this thing is still being touted as 'revolutionary'. To me, it should be unforgettable, a must have. I should have felt hard pressed to walk out of there empty handed. Instead, I ran out unimpressed.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  2. urkel's Avatar
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    LOL!!! So how much lower should I have set my expectations?.
    No. The point is that, just like with this thread, you came in with a predetermined conclusion and you are forcing a way to justify it.

    iPad screen wasn't clear. Fonts were like a driverless linux install. It's a toy. Sites looked wrong. IPhone is in the stoneage for web viewing. Steve Jobs holy shrine. Frankly, I don't know why you put so much effort into learning a product by a company that disgusts you so much. There are definitely good reasons out there not to buy an iPad, but yours is just a revised grocery list of nitpicks because the one you started with didn't have the right ingredients.
    Link: iPad Likes and Dislikes


    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    I mean, this thing is still being touted as 'revolutionary'. To me, it should be unforgettable, a must have. I should have felt hard pressed to walk out of there empty handed. Instead, I ran out unimpressed.
    And this is exactly why you take so much personal offense to the flash argument. You (and others) get so caught up in what people SAY about something that you ignore what it's purpose actually is and stop trying to disprove a commercials tagline.

    Flash is a container for distributing interactive media that has become outdated and troublesome because Adobe failed to take care of it. An iPad isn't a notebook, it's a 1st gen consumption device/big screen app launcher that is intentionally limited in order to serve a new form factor and cater to the app store concept. Complain about the price and you have a point. But complain that sacrifices where made on a limited-use device or that a 1024 screen doesn't render as good as a desktop computer then you're grasping at straws just to validate your own opinion about a product that you didn't want in the first place.


    Oh. And BTW. The reason the Apple reps backed away from you when you whipped out the Droid isnt because you set fear in the hearts of $12/hr college kids. It's more likely because theyre pretty good at spotting people who try wasting their time with a nonsensical debate about how "Your phone is better than theirs".
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/11/2010 at 11:31 PM.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    No. The point is that, just like with this thread, you came in with a predetermined conclusion and you are forcing a way to justify it.

    iPad screen wasn't clear. Fonts were like a driverless linux install. It's a toy. Sites looked wrong. IPhone is in the stoneage for web viewing. Steve Jobs holy shrine. Frankly, I don't know why you put so much effort into learning a product by a company that disgusts you so much. There are definitely good reasons out there not to buy an iPad, but yours is just a revised grocery list of nitpicks because the one you started with didn't have the right ingredients.
    Link: iPad Likes and Dislikes
    Those were my observations, take them or leave them. Yes I had some predetermined conclusions (that were verified) but the screen and fonts were a surprise. I expected better from a 'revolutionary' product.


    And this is exactly why you take so much personal offense to the flash argument. You (and others) get so caught up in what people SAY about something that you ignore what it's purpose actually is and stop trying to disprove a commercials tagline.
    The main reason I went to the store was to see for myself how compatible the iPad (and to some extent the iPhone) was with multimedia rich websites. There were some questionable claims being made in this thread and I had an urge to do a little of my own hands on research. I'm not taking anything personally because I will get Flash regardless.

    Flash is a container for distributing interactive media that has become outdated and troublesome because Adobe failed to take care of it. An iPad isn't a notebook, it's a 1st gen consumption device/big screen app launcher that is intentionally limited in order to serve a new form factor and cater to the app store concept. Complain about the price and you have a point. But complain that sacrifices where made on a limited-use device or that a 1024 screen doesn't render as good as a desktop computer then you're grasping at straws just to validate your own opinion about a product that you didn't want in the first place.
    Well you don't know for a fact I didn't want it. I remember rejecting the first iPhone and being impressed by the 3g. So much so that this Apple hater bought one. Unfortunately it didn't live up to my expectations but I did try it.
    The iPad did none of that for me. I just didn't see the point of it considering the other options. As for it being limited, sorry but that's an extremely poor excuse. Putting in a camera, usb ports, a higher res screen with better rendering isn't asking for too much, not in this day and age. Even my Droid renders fonts as good, or better than my Desktop.

    Oh. And BTW. The reason the Apple reps backed away from you when you whipped out the Droid isnt because you set fear in the hearts of $12/hr college kids. It's more likely because theyre pretty good at spotting people who try wasting their time with a nonsensical debate about how "Your phone is better than theirs".
    Or maybe, I didn't have 'sucker' written all over me.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Flash is a container for distributing interactive media that has become outdated and troublesome because Adobe failed to take care of it.
    LOL that is such a false statement you obviously don't know what you are talking about with this flash stuff.

    Flash is a container for distributing interactive media that much is at least true, but to say that it is outdated and troublesome is FALSE.

    Adobe has been developing flash for quite a long time now. Flash 10.1 is MUCH MUCH better then any of the other flash versions out there. Not only is it upgraded from previous versions they have added support for mobile devices. Things like touch screen controls and speed improvements as well as less crashes have all been added with flash 10.1. Sure it still has bugs and may crash once in a while but name ONE browser plugin or even a browser that does not do this. I've had chrome crash. I've had firefox crash alot.. I've had IE8 crash more then anything else. I've had safari crash as well, and well as for my linux experience, I've had linux crash way more then my windows 7 machine.

    With all that said I will again make this argument that flash 10.1 is MUCH MUCH faster then html5 which no one has countered. As well as being faster it has the capacity to go into a true fullscreen mode. Something none of the HTML5 video players can do. It also has true standardization, the same flash program that runs in windows will run the same on a mac(even if it crashes or is slow) HTML5 is inconstant across browsers. This is clearly proven with this:
    HTML5 isn't a standard yet - W3C Blog
    or this:
    IS HTML5 READY YET?

    It'll take several more years for it to even come close to becoming a finished standard. This is also another good article to read:

    IEBlog : HTML5 and Same Markup: Second IE9 Platform Preview Available for Developers

    Web browsers should render the same markup – the same HTML, same CSS, and same script –the same way. That’s simply not the case today. Enabling the same markup to work the same across different browsers is as crucial for HTML5’s success as performance.
    Right now HTML5 is different for almost every browser this is especially the case with HTML5 on mobile browsers. You'd be limiting your customer/user base if you developed an HTML5 website. At least with flash you can get good performance(with the new flash 10.1) as well as standardization across multiple browsers and platforms.

    I can only leave you with this link to open your eyes as I take my leave:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...ngines_(HTML5)

    -Toaster
    Last edited by toasterthegamer; 05/12/2010 at 02:02 AM.
  5. urkel's Avatar
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    #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by toasterthegamer View Post
    Right now HTML5 is different for almost every browser this is especially the case with HTML5 on mobile browsers. You'd be limiting your customer/user base if you developed an HTML5 website. At least with flash you can get good performance(with the new flash 10.1) as well as standardization across multiple browsers and platforms.
    And what about mobile.

    The whole existence of this thread is due to Steve Jobs making a an overhyped statement about things that were already in motion, and the subsequent overreaction of people who just want to prove him wrong. People are trying to justify the usefulness of flash by screaming about the desktop, but the thing in question is the mobile space. And (until Flash is proven to work on a mobile device) when you get down to what is best for USERS of mobile webos, winmo, android or iphoneOS then a janky html5 experience is better than being completely left out because your device doesn't do flash.
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/12/2010 at 03:04 AM.
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    #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Or maybe, I didn't have 'sucker' written all over me.
    ..says the guy who spends his day off going to the Apple store so he can play with a product he doesn't want and debate with employees about why the phone he bought is better than the phone they are paid to sell.
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/12/2010 at 03:05 AM.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    And what about mobile.

    The whole existence of this thread is due to Steve Jobs making a an overhyped statement about things that were already in motion, and the subsequent overreaction of people who just want to prove him wrong. People are trying to justify the usefulness of flash by screaming about the desktop, but the thing in question is the mobile space. And (until Flash is proven to work on a mobile device) when you get down to what is best for USERS of mobile webos, winmo, android or iphoneOS then a janky html5 experience is better than being completely left out because your device doesn't do flash.
    webOS and android devices are going to soon be able to get this:


    I think I'll take that amazing flash experience over a crappy HTML5 one. thank you!

    -Toaster
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    ..says the guy who spends his day off going to the Apple store so he can play with a product he doesn't want and debate with employees about why the phone he bought is better than the phone they are paid to sell.
    exactly!!!
  9. urkel's Avatar
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    #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Those were my observations, take them or leave them. Yes I had some predetermined conclusions (that were verified) but the screen and fonts were a surprise. I expected better from a 'revolutionary' product.
    Okay. So lets see how much of your "observations" were based in reality vs your own predetermined conclusions.

    CLAIM: "Also the fonts weren't clear and crisp on close examination. They basically looked like the default, poorly aliased fonts a fresh Linux installation would have."

    Image: iPad - CNN.com Zoomed
    Here's the maximum zoom of CNN as seen on the 1024 10" iPad screen. (click text link for fullsize screenshot) How is this considered poor antialiasing and similar to a default driverless linux font?

    CLAIM: "Cnn did function normally but it was obvious the site was made to be compatible with the iPad and maybe Safari on the Mac."

    Image: Firefox - CNN.com
    Image: iPad - CNN.com
    The iPad and Firefox versions look and function EXACTLY the same so how in any way is this "obviously" made to be iPad compatible if the user receives an identical experience when using the site?

    CLAIM: "Several other sites didn't seem to render well in some areas and the fonts on many of the forums, including precentral looked a little crappy if I may use that word."

    Image: iPad - PreCentral
    Image: iPad - PreCentral Zoomed
    Really? So where doesn't PreCentral render well?




    Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But when that opinion is so outlandish then how do you expect to be taken seriously?
  10. #150  
    Your right Urkel, CNN and PreCentral look great on the iPad. I have no idea what darreno1 is talking about.
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    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Your right Urkel, CNN and PreCentral look great on the iPad. I have no idea what darreno1 is talking about.
    And that is exactly why this entire "Flash Lives" conversation is off track. Flash isn't "bad" but it also isn't essential anymore. And sites like CNN and ESPN prove it by giving you the EXACT same web experience whether on iPad or Desktop.

    But this is the bigger problem people are missing by being so short sighted. What does a site do if their flash site isn't "mobile compatible" site? They make an app. And while this may benefit the Apple product users, many times it completely locks out evereyone else because these "major sites" aren't giving any attention to webos or android (for example, Hulu which is flash and is only doing an iPhone app for now) So now You've got a flash site that can't be seen on your mobile device, and an App that ONLY runs on iPhone OS. How does that benefit the average end user who doesn't want to buy Apple products?
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post

    Image: iPad - CNN.com Zoomed
    Here's the maximum zoom of CNN as seen on the 1024 10" iPad screen. (click text link for fullsize screenshot) How is this considered poor antialiasing and similar to a default driverless linux font?
    That doesn't prove anything. When you zoom in the fonts are rerendered for the zoom size so they'll look great. At normal zoom levels is where it's noticed. They looked fuzzy, jaggy and poorly aliased on many sites.


    CLAIM: "Cnn did function normally but it was obvious the site was made to be compatible with the iPad and maybe Safari on the Mac."

    Image: Firefox - CNN.com
    Image: iPad - CNN.com
    The iPad and Firefox versions look and function EXACTLY the same so how in any way is this "obviously" made to be iPad compatible if the user receives an identical experience when using the site?
    You're so blinded by your obvious Apple fanboyism you completely missed what I was trying to convey. I said it functioned normally meaning that all videos worked and all multimedia elements worked. Try the same site on an iPhone and you won't get the same results because of the lack of Flash support. So obviously since the iPhone and Ipad both use Safari, the iPad is redirected to an iPad compatible site. I never said the layout wasn't the same.


    CLAIM: "Several other sites didn't seem to render well in some areas and the fonts on many of the forums, including precentral looked a little crappy if I may use that word."

    Image: iPad - PreCentral
    Image: iPad - PreCentral Zoomed
    Really? So where doesn't PreCentral render well?
    Even in that rather poor first photo they look fuzzy. As you zoomed in they look a little better but they're still fuzzy. Take a photo of the forum page with the titles. They all looked jagged and fuzzy. Of course, the more you zoom in the better they'll look but that's beside the point.

    It's obvious you've never seen what well rendered fonts look like. Take a look at a Droid or even a Windows box / laptop and put your ipad up to it, if the difference isn't obvious, then you're blind.


    Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But when that opinion is so outlandish then how do you expect to be taken seriously?
    To an Apple fan**y like yourself, anything remotely negative will seem outlandish so I'm not surprised you felt that way.
    Last edited by darreno1; 05/12/2010 at 12:30 PM.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    And that is exactly why this entire "Flash Lives" conversation is off track. Flash isn't "bad" but it also isn't essential anymore. And sites like CNN and ESPN prove it by giving you the EXACT same web experience whether on iPad or Desktop.
    You've only named a few sites. The web for everyone doesn't revolve around those few. And I've proven to myself at least, that many sites still do not work well on the iPad. Secondly the iPad in terms of user installed base is peanuts compared to the iPhone and will continue to be so. So the people that really matter in the Apple world are the iPhone users and they are being left out in the cold.


    But this is the bigger problem people are missing by being so short sighted. What does a site do if their flash site isn't "mobile compatible" site? They make an app. And while this may benefit the Apple product users, many times it completely locks out evereyone else because these "major sites" aren't giving any attention to webos or android (for example, Hulu which is flash and is only doing an iPhone app for now) So now You've got a flash site that can't be seen on your mobile device, and an App that ONLY runs on iPhone OS. How does that benefit the average end user who doesn't want to buy Apple products?
    Hulu works on my Droid right now using Skyfire 2.0 and I believe it works on the Incredible as well (using the built-in flash - not absolutely sure about this). In fact Skyfire is even availabe on Android 1.6 so it already covers the majority of installed base. Also with mobile Flash right around the corner, your point escapes me.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  14. urkel's Avatar
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    #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Even in that rather poor first photo they look fuzzy. As you zoomed in they look a little better but they're still fuzzy. Take a photo of the forum page with the titles. They all looked jagged and fuzzy. Of course, the more you zoom in the better they'll look but that's beside the point.
    Image: PreCentral Forum Page w/Titles
    Image: PreCentral Forum Page (MOBILE VERSION)
    1) iPad screenshots are 8-bit 72dpi. So absolute clarity is better on the actual device.
    2) "the more you zoom in the better they'll look" is exactly the point. This is a MOBILE DEVICE.

    I think the iPhone/Pre screen aren't as good as the droid screen. But you can't expect people to believe you read desktop versions of websites on the Droid WITHOUT ZOOMING. Whether it's a 3.2" Pre, 3.7" Droid or 9.7" iPad, these are handheld mobile device that require user interaction in order to zoom on to what you are reading. I'm fine with a differing opinion about the readability of the screenshot you requested, but I think acting as if you expected to be able to read a desktop website on a mobile device without zooming.


    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    -You're so blinded by your obvious Apple fanboyism you completely missed what I was trying to convey.
    -To an Apple fan**y like yourself, anything remotely negative will seem outlandish so I'm not surprised you felt that way.
    Pulling out the double "fanb-y" card? That's cute, but the reason I don't care about the death of Flash isn't because of Apple. It's because I want my next phone (Android or WebOS) to be able to get a better web experience. And that shouldn't revolve around a plugin.

    Okay, well I'm off to the Toyota dealer. I have no interest in buying one but I just wanted to prove to the salesmen that my Honda is better. I can't wait to shove my personal satisfaction with a product they dont care about right into their stupid faces.
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/12/2010 at 01:32 PM.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    So obviously since the iPhone and Ipad both use Safari, the iPad is redirected to an iPad compatible site. I never said the layout wasn't the same.
    darren01, the problem with your argument is the lack of accuracy. The CNN site is not a mobile site, it is the actual CNN site. I think you would probably do yourself a favor by giving up while you are behind.
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Even in that rather poor first photo they look fuzzy. As you zoomed in they look a little better but they're still fuzzy. Take a photo of the forum page with the titles. They all looked jagged and fuzzy. Of course, the more you zoom in the better they'll look but that's beside the point.
    Again, its very hard to take anything you say here as truthful when you make this incredibly inaccurate statement. No fuzziness at all on mine. Maybe my iPad is special.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Hulu works on my Droid right now using Skyfire 2.0 and I believe it works on the Incredible as well (using the built-in flash - not absolutely sure about this).
    Nope, doesn't work.
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Hulu works on my Droid right now using Skyfire 2.0 and I believe it works on the Incredible as well (using the built-in flash - not absolutely sure about this). In fact Skyfire is even availabe on Android 1.6 so it already covers the majority of installed base. Also with mobile Flash right around the corner, your point escapes me.
    Enjoy that while it lasts because Skyfire did nothing but find another another hole which Hulu will soon plug.
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    darren01, the problem with your argument is the lack of accuracy. The CNN site is not a mobile site, it is the actual CNN site. I think you would probably do yourself a favor by giving up while you are behind.
    I never said it was a mobile site. Please read and try to understand what I wrote before spouting off.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Again, its very hard to take anything you say here as truthful when you make this incredibly inaccurate statement. No fuzziness at all on mine. Maybe my iPad is special.
    Well obviously your expectations are low enough it doesn't bother you but I noticed it immediately. And nothing you say will change that fact. And as far as I'm concerned, the fact that you own an iPad puts you very low on my credibility list.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
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