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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Those are corporate usage apps. The equivalent for Mac users is iWork, OpenOffice, GoogleDocs and office:Mac (which is my preferred office suite) and they are all very capable of doing beyond what the average user needs.

    I have to say that i dont understand your agenda here because you act as if this company kicked your dog over a fence or something. You seem to be trying to manipulate a conversation in order to reach your own conclusion, but the fact of it is that unless you have specific needs then an overwhelmingly large amount of consumers wouldn't be handicapped whether they picked Windows, OS X or Even Linux. If you have no interest in ever using Apple products then why get so emotionally invested in them? What if this actually was a logical debate. Would "winning" somehow improve the products that you actually do own?
    Well I'll be the first to admit I hate Apple, their products and Steve Jobs with a passion.

    However, don't ask a question if you don't want an opinion. I think it's you who are being pretty defensive. The fact remains, the majority choice is Windows. OSX isn't bad but in terms of hardware / software compatibility, it's second to Windows. Linux's learning curve will always be its archilles heel so yes it does leave out a large amount of the 'average joe' user base. Ubuntu is showing lots of promise though and, IMO, is probably the most user friendly distro to date.

    What doesn't it do right out of the box? The drug is to entice them to quit being so closed minded and give it a shot. And for the most part, people (outside of your circle) don't rely on bootcamp and vm as much as you think they do.
    What doesn't it do right? Well for one, it doesn't play well with certain hardware and its software (and hardware) choice is limited in comparison to Windows. It also sucks for games and can be a b*tch to troubleshoot usually requiring hours of online research or a call to Apple. Now these issues may not apply to everyone and there are quite a few Mac users who've been able to completely sever all ties to PCs however, many of the ones I've talked to and dealth with are still in 'hybrid' mode. If they aren't sophisticated enough to run a dual boot or Parallels, they'll have a Windows box or laptop for certain apps and they'll use their Macs for whatever else. Again this is all from I've seen being a tech for several years. Of course it doesn't represent all Mac users but I take it as sampling of the user base.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Ofcourse you would. Your Apple hatred has clouded your ability to see the truth.

    Other video platforms have no problem at all running on OSX and linux machines.
    I actually think the Linux version runs worse than the OSX version. I guess you don't want to blame Adobe for that one either.
    Again, from a financial, common sense perspective, it will be to Adobe's benefit for flash to work well with Apple products. Only a fool would want to give up the massive iPhone user base. So I have to disagree once again. And flash isn't just a video platform.

    When I ran Ubuntu for several months, I remember having no issues with flash.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  3. #83  
    It's not rocket science here, looking at the numbers that correlate with the market share doesn't tell you anything. Of course, more people are going to pick a $300 Windows laptop over a $1500 Apple laptop.

    Apple has no interest in competing in the low-end market, there's no money to be made there.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Again, from a financial, common sense perspective, it will be to Adobe's benefit for flash to work well with Apple products. Only a fool would want to give up the massive iPhone user base. So I have to disagree once again. And flash isn't just a video platform.

    When I ran Ubuntu for several months, I remember having no issues with flash.
    You need to hang out in some linux message boards then. If you did, you would understand the frustration. Bottom line, flash is a disaster on both linux and OSX. It has been this way for years. Adobe has acknowledged in the past they have work to do on those platforms to fix it. These promises have gone unfulfilled.

    Apps like ClickToFlash don't exist because Flash is good.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    You need to hang out in some linux message boards then. If you did, you would understand the frustration. Bottom line, flash is a disaster on both linux and OSX. It has been this way for years. Adobe has acknowledged in the past they have work to do on those platforms to fix it. These promises have gone unfulfilled.

    Apps like ClickToFlash don't exist because Flash is good.
    I'm not going to argue anymore with you over this. Adobe released a statement as to why they had difficulties on OSX and I have no reason to doubt them. If it runs great on Windows, it can't be all that bad. In the end, it's the iPhone users that lose as far as I'm concerned.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    You need to hang out in some linux message boards then. If you did, you would understand the frustration. Bottom line, flash is a disaster on both linux and OSX. It has been this way for years. Adobe has acknowledged in the past they have work to do on those platforms to fix it. These promises have gone unfulfilled.

    Apps like ClickToFlash don't exist because Flash is good.
    Flash for Linux has gotten much better:

    64-Bit Linux Adobe Flash Player: Surprisingly good - Computerworld Blogs

    As for OSX my friend who owns two OSX devices told me he never had a problem with flash, in fact he said that OSX and safari were more likely to crash then flash was. Not only that adobe has come out and publicly said that flash crashing on OSX was indeed apples fault, and even though that maybe false it doesn't matter really. Apple is being kept alive by the iphone and the ipod's as soon as that runs out they wont be much of a company, cause lets be honest here they build CRAP computers compared to what you pay for them. I can build a 1500 dollar desktop that would be 1000x times better than a 1500 dollar apple computer. :P Not only that I could upgrade the desktop at anytime I liked.

    -Toaster
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    then why would you want flash? we have to remember "why" flash even exists.

    Flash exists because web standards at the time didn't have a way for displaying interactive content. So macromedia shockwave (then flash) came about and offered some very cool ways to experience media, but it also crashed the hell out of our computers. It was a buggy and proprietary plugin that wee had to deal with and when Adobe bought them it seemed like the experience would improve. Well the flash experience DID improve, but it DID NOT keep up with the pace of the rest of the industry which is why it is widely considered an outdated form of content delivery.

    Where we are now is that there is a standard that is being established and flash SHOULD NOT be part of it. That doesnt mean it shouldn't exist, it just means that websites should be conscious of WHO their customers are and what sort of experience they are delivering. This idea isn't new and way before Jobs took his public stance then the industry has already been turning away from flash. So this isn't an Apple vs Adobe war. This is Users vs Flash. And if you're going to pick a side then it's in your best interest that flash gets trashed and the web moves towards html5 standards. Sure it benefits Apple, but it also benefits every browser based on webkit (RIM, WebOS, Chrome, Safari)
    Why do I want Flash? Because many websites, even major ones, are still using it. Unless they've created mobile sites to redirect you to, you're stuck with the main site, like it or not.

    All I'm saying is it's too early to discard Flash outright, and I want to be able to view websites still using it. I don't need any company just taking it upon themselves to decide that for me.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Why do I want Flash? Because many websites, even major ones, are still using it. Unless they've created mobile sites to redirect you to, you're stuck with the main site, like it or not.

    All I'm saying is it's too early to discard Flash outright, and I want to be able to view websites still using it. I don't need any company just taking it upon themselves to decide that for me.
    And I don't like visiting sites that force me to install plugins that hinder the performance of my computer, phone, etc. in order to view their site appropriately. Since owning an iPad, my experience of browsing the internet at random has been quite good.

    Most all of the major sites have moved to be more standard-compliant and pushing video and content using HTML5. I've yet to hit a site that was rendered useless due to flash.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    And I don't like visiting sites that force me to install plugins that hinder the performance of my computer, phone, etc. in order to view their site appropriately. Since owning an iPad, my experience of browsing the internet at random has been quite good.

    Most all of the major sites have moved to be more standard-compliant and pushing video and content using HTML5. I've yet to hit a site that was rendered useless due to flash.


    Really? Can you name a few major ones that have (besides Youtube)? I'd say a good 80% of the major news and tech sites use Flash. I can't browse any one single day and not come up on a site that doesn't use flash in some capacity. If it's not for video, it's for picture browsing, menu items or animation. Plus every review I've seen of the iPad complains about its lack of flash.
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  10. urkel's Avatar
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    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Why do I want Flash? Because many websites, even major ones, are still using it. Unless they've created mobile sites to redirect you to, you're stuck with the main site, like it or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    [/B]Really? Can you name a few major ones that have (besides Youtube)? I'd say a good 80% of the major news and tech sites use Flash. I can't browse any one single day and not come up on a site that doesn't use flash in some capacity. If it's not for video, it's for picture browsing, menu items or animation. Plus every review I've seen of the iPad complains about its lack of flash.
    Derreno1 & Phone Diva and anyone else. Lets take all the theoretical problems of losing flash and take this discussion to the real world.

    Holding on to Flash is like holding on to the Floppy Drive. It had it's use in the past, but the world moved on.

    But since flash affects you so regularly then please list out the major sites are you encountering that are handicapping you without flash. You may not realize it but the web has been moving away from flash for a while now.

    Some major sites that moved away from flash and are compatible for non-flash browsers:

    CNN
    Reuters
    NY Times
    Vimeo
    Time
    ESPN
    MLB
    Netflix
    NPR
    NHL
    White House
    Virgin America
    Sports Illustrated
    Flickr
    People
    TED
    Nike
    CBS
    Spin
    National Geographic
    CNN Money
    MSNBC
    Fox News
    Cnet
    TV Guide
    CW
    ABC
    Wall Street Journal
    Extra
    InStyle
    LIFE
    The Onion

    I know some people feel restricted by losing flash but lets not get too sentimental. Any site doing a redesign is not building it around flash, and its NOT because of Jobs but because of how unnecessary flash is nowadays.
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/11/2010 at 10:18 AM.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post

    Some major sites that moved away from flash and are compatible for non-flash browsers:

    CNN
    Reuters
    NY Times
    Vimeo
    Time
    ESPN
    MLB
    Netflix
    NPR
    NHL
    White House
    Virgin America
    Sports Illustrated
    Flickr
    People
    TED
    Nike
    CBS
    Spin
    National Geographic
    CNN Money
    MSNBC
    Fox News
    Cnet
    TV Guide
    CW
    ABC
    Wall Street Journal
    Extra
    InStyle
    LIFE
    The Onion

    I know some people feel restricted by losing flash but lets not get too sentimental. Any site doing a redesign is not building it around flash, and its NOT because of Jobs but because of how unnecessary flash is nowadays.
    Can you view the videos on Cnn with an iPad? I doubt it. As far as I know their videos need flash. Anyone with an iPad feel free to chime in.

    As a test I disabled flash in my browser, went to Time and tried to view a video. Guess what? Nope, it needs flash. Same thing with ESPN.

    I think you need to revise that list.
    Last edited by darreno1; 05/11/2010 at 10:43 AM.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Derreno1 & Phone Diva and anyone else. Lets take all the theoretical problems of losing flash and take this discussion to the real world.

    Holding on to Flash is like holding on to the Floppy Drive. It had it's use in the past, but the world moved on.

    But since flash affects you so regularly then please list out the major sites are you encountering that are handicapping you without flash. You may not realize it but the web has been moving away from flash for a while now.

    Some major sites that moved away from flash and are compatible for non-flash browsers:

    CNN
    Reuters
    NY Times
    Vimeo
    Time
    ESPN
    MLB
    Netflix
    NPR
    NHL
    White House
    Virgin America
    Sports Illustrated
    Flickr
    People
    TED
    Nike
    CBS
    Spin
    National Geographic
    CNN Money
    MSNBC
    Fox News
    Cnet
    TV Guide
    CW
    ABC
    Wall Street Journal
    Extra
    InStyle
    LIFE
    The Onion

    I know some people feel restricted by losing flash but lets not get too sentimental. Any site doing a redesign is not building it around flash, and its NOT because of Jobs but because of how unnecessary flash is nowadays.
    But Netflix still needs that proprietary plugin to work that isn't available on Linux, so they're a moot point tbh. ABC and CW's player also need a stupid proprietary plugin to work, but at least ABC moved their shows to Hulu, which actually does work on Linux! The CW (well, Supernatural) has yet to follow. I find it pretty ridiculous how all these companies are dropping Flash to be more open, yet can't work up a rat's *** to use more open solutions that work on Linux? But they can put this **** on an iPad? Bull****.
    screwdestiny
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  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    The videos on CNN do work on my iPad.
    I actually like the CNN app far better than the website.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    The videos on CNN do work on my iPad.
    Are you going to the regular desktop site, or one designed for the iPad? The regular site uses flash for their videos.

    Anyway, today I'm heading to the Apple store and will try them out on an iPad myself. I want to put this to rest once and for all and will post my observations.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    If it runs great on Windows, it can't be all that bad.
    It is that bad.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Are you going to the regular desktop site, or one designed for the iPad? The regular site uses flash for their videos.

    Anyway, today I'm heading to the Apple store and will try them out on an iPad myself. I want to put this to rest once and for all and will post my observations.
    I just tried it. I couldn't get the videos to work on my iPad. However, like I already said the CNN app is so much better than the website. I will take the experience of using the app over using their website on any platform. I got it on sale for .99 cents. I think I read their iPad specific app is coming soon.
  17. urkel's Avatar
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    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Can you view the videos on Cnn with an iPad? I doubt it. As far as I know their videos need flash. Anyone with an iPad feel free to chime in.

    Video streams on all 3
  18. #98  
    Just tried it on a coworker's 3gs and it doesn't work on the desktop site, needs flash. Will post later after checking out the ipad.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  19. #99  
    Give me about 15 - 20 minutes and I'll make a quick video demoing some of the sites listed above.

    Edit: Video is encoding now.

    Last edited by barkerja; 05/11/2010 at 12:39 PM.
  20.    #100  
    While you're at it, can you show me these sites working on the iPad?

    Showtime's QD (cutting edge social comedy): Showtime - ***** Duck - Home

    Moodstream (the best online inspiration driver): Moodstream™ by Getty Images

    Waterlife (the award-winning documentary): WATERLIFE - NFB

    HBO's web site: HBO

    Bubblewood's concept store (France): BUBBLEWOOD - CONCEPT STORE - PARIS

    I have a few dozen others, but I'd be satisfied if someone could show me how to view content in those sites, not just a few canned "Apple partner" sites.
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