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  1. urkel's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    At one time, I remember some Nokia smartphones had Flash Lite.
    Which sucked. Lets put some perspective on the Flash debate. The reason flash has yet to appear on a phone successfully isn't because of Apple and their tyranny. It's because Flash sucks. It's rarely written well and it's terrible in implementation, resource usage and scalability.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    As for MSFT, I had thought one reason they drove out competitors was because IE was bundled and could never be uninstalled so people were just more likely to use what's installed than look elsewhere. Same with WMP. Which is why EU clamped down on that and why we can now uninstall newer versions of IE. Bundling was a big sore point with the EU. It's true, I never realized they deliberately built a consistently insecure browser they have to keep patching, just to drive out competitors. I knew IE never passes the web standard test, but thought they were just inept, sticking to old ways and refusing to change.

    As for Apple claiming to support open standards, their record shows they don't either.
    IE succeeded because Microsoft shoved it in Windows users faces. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against MS bundling IE because establishing standards is important. The problem is that IE wasn't playing nice with the internet so they were essentially cramming an inferior product down our throats. On my Windows machines then the ONLY time I ever use it is when doing updates. Outside of that I use Firefox/Chrome on Windows and Firefox/Safari on Mac.

    As for your argument. I understand where you are coming from but I think the problem with your stance is that you are trying to make Apple measure up to Microsoft. NEITHER of these companies respect their users and BOTH of them are tyrannical when given power. The difference (IMO) in this situation is that Apple is saying from the start that "We will not support Flash". It sucks for you if you really need flash, but you can't really say that you're caught off guard. If you bought an Apple product then you are willingly putting yourself in THEIR world. And for the most part, people there aren't as unhappy as non-Apple fans would like to believe.
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/10/2010 at 01:21 PM.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by toasterthegamer View Post
    Yeah thats why they call it a BETA or DEMO. They haven't finished developing for it, and even though it crashes and its buggy it's still faster then HTML5 on android devices. You can check that out here:

    -Toaster
    Then I guess their Flash player for OSX and Linux is a demo too, because it behaves almost the exact same way.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post

    IE succeeded because Microsoft shoved it in Windows users faces. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against MS bundling IE because establishing standards is important. The problem is that IE wasn't playing nice with the internet so they were essentially cramming an inferior product down our throats. On my Windows machines then the ONLY time I ever use it is when doing updates. Outside of that I use Firefox/Chrome on Windows and Firefox/Safari on Mac.
    Yes it's true MS bundled IE with Windows but they NEVER stopped anyone from installing a different browser. They could have easily coded security policies to block the competitors and they never did. I use Firefox and Chrome exclusively. IE only when necessary. So, IE is not a good example and it's not quite the same. People (who bothered to do a little research) still had a choice. In contrast, Apple would prefer that they make all the choices.

    And I'm of the opinion that most Apple sheep eh.... users are 'content' because they're largely uneducated about the other choices and what they offer.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Yes it's true MS bundled IE with Windows but they NEVER stopped anyone from installing a different browser. They could have easily coded security policies to block the competitors and they never did. I use Firefox and Chrome exclusively. IE only when necessary. So, IE is not a good example and it's not quite the same. People (who bothered to do a little research) still had a choice. In contrast, Apple would prefer that they make all the choices.

    And I'm of the opinion that most Apple sheep eh.... users are 'content' because they're largely uneducated about the other choices and what they offer.
    Uneducated? I wouldn't say thatů I'd say they're satisfied. Their phone meets their needs, it does what they want how they want it.

    The iPhone sells itself these days, it's not because of marketing or bs that Apple feeds you. My sister, mom, AND grandmother all just picked up iPhones because my dad recently got one and they were impressed with all of the cool games and applications. Not to mention the quality.
  5. urkel's Avatar
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Yes it's true MS bundled IE with Windows but they NEVER stopped anyone from installing a different browser. They could have easily coded security policies to block the competitors and they never did. I use Firefox and Chrome exclusively. IE only when necessary. So, IE is not a good example and it's not quite the same. People (who bothered to do a little research) still had a choice. In contrast, Apple would prefer that they make all the choices.
    I only brought up IE because it was asked how people would react if MS made an "attempt" to control users experience. And just like you said, smart people will go to the alternative. For browsers the alternative is Safari, Chrome and Firefox. For phones the alternative is Android, WebOS and WinPho. Choosing to buy an IPhone OS and complaining it doesn't do flash puts the fault squarely on the user because warnings were established from the start that this is a controlled ecosystem.

    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    And I'm of the opinion that most Apple sheep eh.... users are 'content' because they're largely uneducated about the other choices and what they offer.
    Calling Apple people sheep displays a high level of uneducated opinion in itself. OS X is a solid Unix based OS running on hardware that supports both Win and Linux. so where does Lack of Choice hurt Mac users nowadays?
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post

    Calling Apple people sheep displays a high level of uneducated opinion in itself. OS X is a solid Unix based OS running on hardware that supports both Win and Linux. so where does Lack of Choice hurt Mac users nowadays?
    Believe me, that opinion is based on years upon years of contact with Mac users. And while there are many exceptions, a vast majority buy into the hype, marketing and hearsay. OSX may be based on UNIX but I'm not sure it has lived up to Unix's inherent security considering how easy it was to crack by a couple hackers. I have no particular issue with OSX itself, but mainly the idea that it's better than Windows just because it's based on Unix or made by Apple. I also don't deliberately steer anyone away from it.


    To answer your last question: Ask all the Mac users that run bootcamp or parallels about the lack of choice. And having to dual-boot two OSs isn't convenient in case you're thinking about bringing that up as evidence of choice. In that case, many more Windows users will be dual booting OSX which isn't the case because it's not necessary. And Parallels has it's own set of issues with print drivers and video related bugs. But I know tons of Mac users that have no choice but to run Windows on their Macs.
    Last edited by darreno1; 05/10/2010 at 02:58 PM.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Uneducated? I wouldn't say that… I'd say they're satisfied. Their phone meets their needs, it does what they want how they want it.

    The iPhone sells itself these days, it's not because of marketing or bs that Apple feeds you. My sister, mom, AND grandmother all just picked up iPhones because my dad recently got one and they were impressed with all of the cool games and applications. Not to mention the quality.
    Not because of marketing? Apple would not be where they are without marketing. Nor would they spend the amount they spend on it. Marketing was very important to Apple's success no doubt. The original iPhone, when looked at objectively, were missing lots of features that were available on other phones, but because it was hyped up so much, lots of people were interested and bought into it. And yes to some degree, the sucess of the iPod helped as well as brand loyalty by those who'd buy Apple regardless.

    These days, the iPhone brand is well established so yes it does market itself however it was not without a large initial advertising push.

    If you take the time to show your mom and grandmother the alternatives and the advantages, they may not be so quick to jump on the iPhone bandwagon. I've done it and it usually works.

    As an example of the power of marketing look at the Droid. I pull mine out and literally every Tom, **** and Harry know what phone it is immediately.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    If you take the time to show your mom and grandmother the alternatives and the advantages, they may not be so quick to jump on iPhone bandwagon. I've done it and it usually works.
    I have. I've showed them both various different Android handsets and the Palm Pre, none of which they were interested.

    And for the record, I don't own an iPhone.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Then I guess their Flash player for OSX and Linux is a demo too, because it behaves almost the exact same way.
    I actually hear the new flash player for linux is pretty good. Cross platform support is something that is really hard to do especially with something like flash. I run windows 7 and I never have any problems with flash. A mobile version of flash is something new for adobe and they aren't very experanced in this area. I'm actually glad it's taking them awhile it means they are trying to get all the bugs worked out before the release it. As for OSX and flash I'm fairly certain adobe is working on this too. One of my dev friends has OSX and he says he has never had flash crash and in fact it was OSX that crashed more then anything else. Also for people who promote apple as being behind openness you have no clue what you are talking about. Almost everything they develop is proprietary.. Heck even their hardare is locked up try upgrading your mac computer good luck putting a new video card in it.

    -Toaster
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Which sucked. Lets put some perspective on the Flash debate. The reason flash has yet to appear on a phone successfully isn't because of Apple and their tyranny. It's because Flash sucks. It's rarely written well and it's terrible in implementation, resource usage and scalability.


    IE succeeded because Microsoft shoved it in Windows users faces. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against MS bundling IE because establishing standards is important. The problem is that IE wasn't playing nice with the internet so they were essentially cramming an inferior product down our throats. On my Windows machines then the ONLY time I ever use it is when doing updates. Outside of that I use Firefox/Chrome on Windows and Firefox/Safari on Mac.

    As for your argument. I understand where you are coming from but I think the problem with your stance is that you are trying to make Apple measure up to Microsoft. NEITHER of these companies respect their users and BOTH of them are tyrannical when given power. The difference (IMO) in this situation is that Apple is saying from the start that "We will not support Flash". It sucks for you if you really need flash, but you can't really say that you're caught off guard. If you bought an Apple product then you are willingly putting yourself in THEIR world. And for the most part, people there aren't as unhappy as non-Apple fans would like to believe.
    Yes, I remember the long history of anti-trust arguments against MSFT and those old articles just serve to remind me of it. I never said MSFT was good, just that if they tried that, they'd be blasted all over the place, but Apple isn't.

    I'm not an anti-Apple product person, just anti-Apple control person. Actually I'm against all corporations that try controlling the consumer way too much(which is a long list). I never understood where they get off thinking they're doing us such a huge favor to the degree that we need to "tow the line" if we want to use their products or services.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    And I'm of the opinion that most Apple sheep eh.... users are 'content' because they're largely uneducated about the other choices and what they offer.
    As a household that has had both the Pre and an iPhone (and various other phones over the years), the Pre was just too much *work*.

    I am sure its fun to tinker with and customize, if you get into that stuff, but primarily we wanted a phone that worked as a phone (which includes getting calls, voicemails, notifications, alarms - all of which failed on my SOs phone at some point) and we didn't have to become a technical expert to manage.

    Most of the recommendations for issues my SO got had to do with installing preware and patches. Who generally has to do that to get basic features on a phone??

    So if those "other choices" involve the cool themes and customization, sure, those are attractive.

    But you should recognize that "not futzing with your phone all day" is a pretty popular choice, too.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by toasterthegamer View Post
    I actually hear the new flash player for linux is pretty good. Cross platform support is something that is really hard to do especially with something like flash. I run windows 7 and I never have any problems with flash. A mobile version of flash is something new for adobe and they aren't very experanced in this area. I'm actually glad it's taking them awhile it means they are trying to get all the bugs worked out before the release it. As for OSX and flash I'm fairly certain adobe is working on this too. One of my dev friends has OSX and he says he has never had flash crash and in fact it was OSX that crashed more then anything else. Also for people who promote apple as being behind openness you have no clue what you are talking about. Almost everything they develop is proprietary.. Heck even their hardare is locked up try upgrading your mac computer good luck putting a new video card in it.

    -Toaster
    Adobe has been saying for years they will fix flash on OSX. Sorry, but I don't trust them at all anymore. Especially since their CEO is going around claiming that it is not their fault flash runs poorly on non windows machines, which is an outright lie.
  13. urkel's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    To answer your last question: Ask all the Mac users that run bootcamp or parallels about the lack of choice. And having to dual-boot two OSs isn't convenient in case you're thinking about bringing that up as evidence of choice. In that case, many more Windows users will be dual booting OSX which isn't the case because it's not necessary. And Parallels has it's own set of issues with print drivers and video related bugs. But I know tons of Mac users that have no choice but to run Windows on their Macs.
    Actually, you'd be surprised at bootcamp usage in the Mac community. The reason it even exists is because it's a gateway drug. Switching OSs has always been difficult for casual users so BootCamp is seen as an eject button just in case the Mac doesn't work out. but despite your claims, most people dump their bootcamp when they realize they can do everything they need OS X (or Linux or even the WebOS Tablet that you're championing in another thread). Your idea that one OS is deficient in comparison to another is outdated because a very capable maturity level has been reached by all OSs.

    IF an OS is incapable of doing something then most likely that task has something to do with a niche service or a corporate policy. (and if we're even going to begin discussion on the limitations established in corporate environments then you'll be forced to reset your stance that "IE didn't eliminate choice" because most corporations will not let you install a 3rd party browser and are probably not even upgrading beyond IE6).
  14. #74  
    When did Adobe buy Macromedia? I forget, but I thought it was under a decade ago.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Adobe has been saying for years they will fix flash on OSX. Sorry, but I don't trust them at all anymore. Especially since their CEO is going around claiming that it is not their fault flash runs poorly on non windows machines, which is an outright lie.
    Well given Apple's generally dismissive attitude with regard to software that they can't control fully, I'm inclined to believe Adobe. Besides, it will be to Adobe's benefit to have flash run well on OSX and iPhone OS. So It's not hard for me to accept that Apple wanted no part of it from day 1 regardless and the 'crashing' issue is now a convenient excuse.
    Last edited by darreno1; 05/10/2010 at 04:24 PM.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  16. solarus's Avatar
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    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    As a household that has had both the Pre and an iPhone (and various other phones over the years), the Pre was just too much *work*.

    I am sure its fun to tinker with and customize, if you get into that stuff, but primarily we wanted a phone that worked as a phone (which includes getting calls, voicemails, notifications, alarms - all of which failed on my SOs phone at some point) and we didn't have to become a technical expert to manage.

    Most of the recommendations for issues my SO got had to do with installing preware and patches. Who generally has to do that to get basic features on a phone??

    So if those "other choices" involve the cool themes and customization, sure, those are attractive.

    But you should recognize that "not futzing with your phone all day" is a pretty popular choice, too.
    That's pretty weird because I had the exact same experience but in reverse. I liked the iPhone OS (although the UI did grow rather stale on me after 18 months), liked the hardware, loved to tinker with it via Jailbreak, but as a phone my experience wasn't the best not even close - voice clarity & volume simply were not very good, no matter the number of bars. With my Pre I've had a much better phone experience - but would appreciate better hardware and more apps

    My iPhone still serves me well but for the use it was best designed for - an iPod Touch.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Actually, you'd be surprised at bootcamp usage in the Mac community. The reason it even exists is because it's a gateway drug. Switching OSs has always been difficult for casual users so BootCamp is seen as an eject button just in case the Mac doesn't work out. but despite your claims, most people dump their bootcamp when they realize they can do everything they need OS X (or Linux or even the WebOS Tablet that you're championing in another thread). Your idea that one OS is deficient in comparison to another is outdated because a very capable maturity level has been reached by all OSs.

    IF an OS is incapable of doing something then most likely that task has something to do with a niche service or a corporate policy. (and if we're even going to begin discussion on the limitations established in corporate environments then you'll be forced to reset your stance that "IE didn't eliminate choice" because most corporations will not let you install a 3rd party browser and are probably not even upgrading beyond IE6).
    Well if you consider Microsoft office niche or the fact that the majority of corporations still prefer Windows for software and hardware compatibility reasons, then maybe. And no, Office for the Mac is not even in the same ballpark as office for windows. Entourage, IMO, is one big joke Microsoft pulled on Apple. From my experience, I have to disagree with the 'gateway drug' reference, but let's say that's true, I think the bottom line is, there would be no need for a 'gateway drug' if OSX did what users needed it to do right out of the box.

    Most bootcamp and Parallels users I know run them because they need compaitibility with a certain program or hardware. Not because they're trying out a Mac. These are seasoned Mac users I'm talking about here, not newbies. Gamers also have no choice.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  18. urkel's Avatar
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I'm not an anti-Apple product person, just anti-Apple control person. Actually I'm against all corporations that try controlling the consumer way too much(which is a long list). I never understood where they get off thinking they're doing us such a huge favor to the degree that we need to "tow the line" if we want to use their products or services.
    then why would you want flash? we have to remember "why" flash even exists.

    Flash exists because web standards at the time didn't have a way for displaying interactive content. So macromedia shockwave (then flash) came about and offered some very cool ways to experience media, but it also crashed the hell out of our computers. It was a buggy and proprietary plugin that wee had to deal with and when Adobe bought them it seemed like the experience would improve. Well the flash experience DID improve, but it DID NOT keep up with the pace of the rest of the industry which is why it is widely considered an outdated form of content delivery.

    Where we are now is that there is a standard that is being established and flash SHOULD NOT be part of it. That doesnt mean it shouldn't exist, it just means that websites should be conscious of WHO their customers are and what sort of experience they are delivering. This idea isn't new and way before Jobs took his public stance then the industry has already been turning away from flash. So this isn't an Apple vs Adobe war. This is Users vs Flash. And if you're going to pick a side then it's in your best interest that flash gets trashed and the web moves towards html5 standards. Sure it benefits Apple, but it also benefits every browser based on webkit (RIM, WebOS, Chrome, Safari)
  19. urkel's Avatar
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    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Well if you consider Microsoft office niche or the fact that the majority of corporations still prefer Windows for software and hardware compatibility reasons, then maybe. And no, Office for the Mac is not even in the same ballpark as office for windows. Entourage, IMO, is one big joke Microsoft pulled on Apple.
    Those are corporate usage apps. The equivalent for Mac users is iWork, OpenOffice, GoogleDocs and office:Mac (which is my preferred office suite) and they are all very capable of doing beyond what the average user needs.

    I have to say that i dont understand your agenda here because you act as if this company kicked your dog over a fence or something. You seem to be trying to manipulate a conversation in order to reach your own conclusion, but the fact of it is that unless you have specific needs then an overwhelmingly large amount of consumers wouldn't be handicapped whether they picked Windows, OS X or Even Linux. If you have no interest in ever using Apple products then why get so emotionally invested in them? What if this actually was a logical debate. Would "winning" somehow improve the products that you actually do own?

    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    From my experience, I have to disagree with the 'gateway drug' reference, but let's say that's true, I think the bottom line is, there would be no need for a 'gateway drug' if OSX did what users needed it to do right out of the box.
    What doesn't it do right out of the box? The drug is to entice them to quit being so closed minded and give it a shot. And for the most part, people (outside of your circle) don't rely on bootcamp and vm as much as you think they do.
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/10/2010 at 04:57 PM.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Well given Apple's generally dismissive attitude with regard to software that they can't control fully, I'm inclined to believe Adobe. Besides, it will be to Adobe's benefit to have flash run well on OSX and iPhone OS. So It's not hard for me to accept that Apple wanted no part of it from day 1 regardless and the 'crashing' issue is now a convenient excuse.
    Ofcourse you would. Your Apple hatred has clouded your ability to see the truth.

    Other video platforms have no problem at all running on OSX and linux machines.
    I actually think the Linux version runs worse than the OSX version. I guess you don't want to blame Adobe for that one either.
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