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  1. #21  
    I can't do that, brmiller1976. A full version of Flash doesn't exist on the iPhone or any other mobile device.

    That doesn't change the fact that Flash has historically ran poorly on OS X. Or that QuickTime is very stable on OS X. Or that you can't provide me with a list of Java apps that you claim to run on webOS.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    I can't do that, brmiller1976. A full version of Flash doesn't exist on the iPhone or any other mobile device.
    You're being dishonest (what a surprise!)

    Hundreds of popular iPhone apps like South Park were written in Flash and compiled to the iPhone.

    Supposedly, these apps are ****ty, crash-prone junk that uses up battery life. That's what the Apple propaganda says -- yet the apps in question are some of the most popular and best-rated apps on the App store.

    So if Flash-based development and Flash compilers in CS5 produce ****ty junk -- requiring a ban by Apple -- which of the hundreds of Flash apps for the iPhone are an example of the ****ty apps Apple was referring to?
  3.    #23  
    What does QuickTime on a dead OS, or the fact that you don't get that the Palm Mojo framework is a Java engine, have to do with Flash?
  4. #24  
    Are you really that obtuse or are you just bored?

    Flash content isn't the problem. Flash Player is the problem.

    QuickTime doesn't have anything to do with it. That's what makes you bringing it up so strange. As for Java, maybe I was wrong. Maybe it was brmiller1977 who claimed to be running Java applications on his Pre.
  5.    #25  
    Flash content has also been banned.

    It's obvious you're not going to answer the question -- which is because you cannot justify Apple's stance. Not a surprise, since the stance is based on a lie.

    And I am running Java applications on my Pre. EVERY native app on your Pre is a Java application. The Pre is a Java and JavaScript engine running on top of Linux.

    Why do Apple users always have such a lack of understanding about technology? Kills me.
  6. #26  
    Flash content hasn't been banned. Developers and content providers can use Objective C to put their stuff on the App Store.

    And using Java as an example of webOS supporting open web standards simply because the OS uses it for services (despite not being able to run, say, an applet) is just weird. That's like pretending iPhone OS can run GIMP simply because it's based on BSD.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    That's what they claim, but it's BS. No plugin causes more crashes on more systems than Apple's own QuickTime.
    And I got the pro version too, its super crap. I only use it when I need to watch one of those trailers on HD-Trailers.net and there's a 25% chance of it working even then.
  8. urkel's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Are you really that obtuse or are you just bored.
    I'd say it's more about sour grapes. I'm not saying BMiller is wrong because the foundation for his logic is true. But considering he has such strong opinions about a product he has no intention on buying then he clearly he has an agenda with all these posts against Apple and he's twisting information to fit his own argument.

    Yes, flash is good but flawed. Yes quicktime is flawed. That is why we try to avoid using them with flash blockers and VLC Player unless absolutely necessary.

    BTW. First thing I'll do if flash goes to pre? Install and disable it. Because I have yet to find an instance where I "need" it.
    Last edited by Urkel; 05/09/2010 at 08:05 PM.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Please name a single one of the hundreds of Flash-based iPhone apps that didn't run properly, prior to Apple's ban.
    You're COMPLETELY misinformed. This actually has nothing to do with Flash in itself (as in regards to applications) but cross-compilers. If you want to a read a comprehensible write up as to why Apple might do such a thing, check this out:

    The Genius in Apple's Vertical Platform - steve's blog
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Flash content hasn't been banned. Developers and content providers can use Objective C to put their stuff on the App Store.

    And using Java as an example of webOS supporting open web standards simply because the OS uses it for services (despite not being able to run, say, an applet) is just weird. That's like pretending iPhone OS can run GIMP simply because it's based on BSD.
    But Flash has been banned from iPhone and iPad, making many sites non-viewable.

    I don't appreciate Apple telling me what sites I can visit because they want to dictate what I can use.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #31  
    It's CrApple... how do you even get past ibOOns... ?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Theyre not opposed to what flash does, They're opposed to what it does to their systems.
    So then MSFT should ban Flash too then? You really want companies telling you what to use?


    Flash has problems yes, but who's choice should it be to use it? I don't want QT but I'm forced to install that crap because it's the iTunes engine. What is up with that? It's OK to force QT on people because you can't run iTunes without it, but we can't use Flash? Neither QT or Flash are ideal programs IMO.

    Apple is very hypocritical in their stance.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. #33  
    Whatever, as long as we can enjoy flash on our webOS/Android/Blackberry/Winmo devices, I couldn't care less what Apple thinks or does. I tried their iPhone 3g for one year, had a taste of that closed, let's-all-bow-to-Steve Jobs culture, and rejected it with contempt. So much so that I wouldn't by another Apple product ever. I'm just glad there are better alternatives.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  14. urkel's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    So then MSFT should ban Flash too then? You really want companies telling you what to use?
    Apple didn't ban flash from computers. Just from phones. So this only affects people who choose to buy an apple phone.

    I don't agree with their stance on flash or the app store restrictions, but if a company is going to restrict the user experience then I'd rather they be upfront rather than advertise it and then pull back (Palm w/iTunes integration and Flash capabilities that don't exist)
  15. #35  
    Apple's not dictating anything. They're not controlling what sites you can or can't visit. If anything, it's the website(s) that are dictating/forcing users to install UNstandard plugins to view their content.
  16. #36  
    Apple would like the developers to actually make use of the internal innovations that they have spent a lot of development effort on.

    Utilizing cross platform compilers which make generic code, and usually don't have support built in for specialized hardware or features, just makes for a plain vanilla user experience with little to no innovative thought. This would then make for no distinction between platforms and also won't help drive software innovation.

    Apple wants it's developers to work on apps using native development tools that provide access to the technologies that are in Apple products.

    Flash in of itself runs poorly on Apple products because Adobe has refused to work on hardware acceleration for Flash on Apple. Thus flash content must be rendered in software on a Mac which makes it a resource pig and a battery drainer on mobile systems. You wouldn't notice a performance hit on a desktop or laptop, which all have very powerful CPU's....but you will notice the hit on mobile phones. (heck, even my MacBook Pro's fans come on full when viewing a flash content website...and the CPU temperature is pushing way up, which means it's working hard just to process that site's content).

    In short Flash does not provide a good user experience on Apple products.
  17. #37  
    Flash runs badly on Windows machines too, so it should be banned by MSFT from use on their OS, if we follow Apple's thinking. And Apple should just ban it from OSX if they're going to be consistent.

    Apple is dictating by exclusion for their mobile devices. The user is the one who should dictate. Some all Flash websites are changing due to user dissatisfaction and/or input, which is as it should be. But if I choose to view Flash sites, I could not if I had only an iPhone or iPad to rely on; if I left my laptop at home, let's say.

    My point is basically that we're not a babies, yet Apple wants to make decisions for us. Flash is still widely used, like it or not. That's why other mobile OS are trying to work with it for the time being, instead of just excluding it outright. Apple wants to stop people from using Flash, not going to happen yet.

    That said, Adobe bought out Macromedia and did nothing to makes Flash better it seems, yes they bear blame too. Had they actually improved Flash, we might not be having this debate.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Flash runs badly on Windows machines too, so it should be banned by MSFT from use on their OS, if we follow Apple's thinking. And Apple should just ban it from OSX if they're going to be consistent.

    Apple is dictating by exclusion for their mobile devices. The user is the one who should dictate. Some all Flash websites are changing due to user dissatisfaction and/or input, which is as it should be. But if I choose to view Flash sites, I could not if I had only an iPhone or iPad to rely on; if I left my laptop at home, let's say.

    My point is basically that we're not a babies, yet Apple wants to make decisions for us. Flash is still widely used, like it or not. That's why other mobile OS are trying to work with it for the time being, instead of just excluding it outright. Apple wants to stop people from using Flash, not going to happen yet.

    That said, Adobe bought out Macromedia and did nothing to makes Flash better it seems, yes they bear blame too. Had they actually improved Flash, we might not be having this debate.
    Instead of rehashing what I've previously said, I'll direct you to a post I made a few weeks back. It's my take on why Apple chose to "ban" Flash from the iPhone/iPad

    http://forums.precentral.net/2413742-post75.html
  19. #39  
    How about I control my own user experience?

    That's just BS on Apple's part . More like controlling the user, is mainly what I see from them.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Flash runs badly on Windows machines too, so it should be banned by MSFT from use on their OS, if we follow Apple's thinking. And Apple should just ban it from OSX if they're going to be consistent.

    Apple is not concerned about how good or bad the user experience is for Windows users viewing a flash content site is. Apple is concerned about their own customers experience, hence why they are not supporting Flash on their MOBILE devices.

    Apple is dictating by exclusion for their mobile devices. The user is the one who should dictate.
    If you don't like Apple's decisions then use a different platform...(I use a Mobile PRE phone which can't see flash websites, and I've never missed it...heck I've not even noticed the non-existence of flash capability). Apple is not 'dictating' by exclusion, they are very simply eliminating poor design elements from impacting on the user experience.

    Some all Flash websites are changing due to user dissatisfaction and/or input, which is as it should be.
    Completely agree with you. As better technologies come along websites will change, totally normal.

    But if I choose to view Flash sites, I could not if I had only an iPhone or iPad to rely on; if I left my laptop at home, let's say.
    As you pointed out above....websites are changing, which means that, over time, you won't miss being able to view a flash content website.

    My point is basically that we're not a babies, yet Apple wants to make decisions for us.
    Incorrect assumption on Apple wanting to make decisions for us. Apple wants you to have a decent experience while using their products. Flash content does not run well enough, it kills battery life, and can cause some really wicked crashes. This impacts negatively on the user experience.

    Flash is still widely used, like it or not. That's why other mobile OS are trying to work with it for the time being, instead of just excluding it outright.
    The other device manufacturers are providing Flash capabilities......with the resultant loss to battery life.....and crashing browsers. One of my clients parents just got ahold of the latest Nokia(900?) running Nokia's version of Linux. (nice phone by the way....solid build quality....decent UI) However the phone gets noticeably HOT when running a flash website, the browser outright cratered once when loading that site....and his battery dropped by about 8% while browsing that site (maybe 3-4 minutes).

    Apple wants to stop people from using Flash, not going to happen yet.
    No they don't. You're attributing more to their decisions than is actually warranted. Apple just doesn't want to deal with the headaches that running flash will inevitably create.

    That said, Adobe bought out Macromedia and did nothing to makes Flash better it seems, yes they bear blame too. Had they actually improved Flash, we might not be having this debate.
    Agree totally!!! So why should Apple support a technology that is so poorly built...maybe it is time for flash to just go the way of the Dodo bird.

    Respectively
    Harnoy
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