Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 104
  1.    #1  
    I have searched and haven't seen this anywhere else yet, but I apologize if its been posted.

    Jobs puts together a pretty cogent argument on why no flash for the iPhone, and why he doubts there will be Flash - at all - for the mobile computing environment.

    I think this helps his case considerably.

    Thoughts on Flash
  2. #2  
    I really don't think so. His arguments come off as,

    Adobe is proprietary, like us, so there is no reason to trust or deal with them.

    We don't want to put the effort on getting it to work, we'd rather just let everyone else work to switch there stuff over to be compatible with us. It's not like developers would spend three seconds making their flash programs mobile compatible (removing hover), instead they'd much rather learn a new inexperienced technology and spend weeks doing the same.

    Flash is bad because they get in the way of us influencing and screwing over the developers.

    You might've bought it, but we consider you just renting the phone, if we let Flash on the phone who knows what kind of stuff you'd start doing on our device!
  3.    #3  
    Wow, I didn't get that at all.

    Yes Apple and Adobe are both proprietary but I think when you are an Apple (or Adobe) customer you are signing on to THAT proprietary platform and keeping third parties to a minimum makes sense for many reasons.

    Clearly Apple is proprietary but Apple's own customers are okay with it and Apple doesn't want to insert a closed architecture if they don't have to (and of course often they do, but in this case, they don't).

    My whole reason to "buy" this argument is I see how crappy flash runs on my computer (Safari, Chrome and Firefox on Mac) and has since its first came out. No way in hell I want that on my phone.

    Frankly, as nice as a mobile phone screen can be, most of the legitimate reasons for using flash in a browser are just not things I tend to do on a mobile device. Its too small.

    I think Adobe will lose this one and it won't be just because of Apple -- it will also be because they appear to not be able to make it happen for other (aside from WinMo) mobile devices.
  4. #4  
    I agree with finngirl. I read that earlier and thought he did a very good job (no pun) of explaining. I certainly see his points as valid and well constructed.

    As far as I am concerned, it helped his case immensely.
  5. philbw's Avatar
    Posts
    310 Posts
    Global Posts
    352 Global Posts
    #5  
    Here's my thoughts: as it stands right now Flash may not be the greatest. But, we need a "first generation" of mobile devices running it in order for advancements to be made to make it run better. It won't be long long before mobile devices have the sheer horsepower to run media intense applications, and I'd imagine that while devices get better Adobe will make Flash better and more fine tuned to the mobile device. It could be a while before we get the "full" Flash experience on a phone, but remember it took a *long* time before we got full web on our phones too.

    - Phil -
  6. #6  
    He lost at advocating the games on the App Store as a suitable alternative to Flash games. People are free to post whatever Flash game on the web that they want, whereas with Apple they have to re-code, wait for approval, and then enter into a **** developer agreement with Apple. It only further solidified that all his arguments boil down to fear of App Store competition, especially when games are already the most pirated software there. So glad I rid myself of their products.
  7. bruba's Avatar
    Posts
    743 Posts
    Global Posts
    752 Global Posts
    #7  
    • appstore is as/more closed than flash
    • like 75% of all internet users can't see html5 (browser doesn't support it). IE9 won't even fully support it?
    • flash is more than just video, creating the same effects in javascript,etc. can take 10x as much effort, not everybody is a coder.
    • plus browser support and execution may vary and a lot of things/effects aren't possible yet.
    • the flash community is big a won't go away any time soon
    • a lot of flash video won't ever change. It's static content, like embedded videos linking to a flash file on a blog that won't be changed in the future.
    • HTML5 video is not protected. Right click > 'Save as...', no no for content providers
    • HTML5 video codec specs are not set. Firefox and Opera don't want to support H.264
    • HTML5 can, in most browsers, not play full screen
    • Also, a playlist, like with Hulu, will likely be impossible playing in full screen, because you maximize the video, not the website like with flash
    • Overlay controls in full screen (like thumbnails)?
    • Choice

    That's about it for now. I'm with Team Flash and happy Palm is supporting it..
  8. #8  
    Games are not an issue for two reasons. First, iPhone games can easily be recompiled to run on webOS, or even Android or WP7. Second, HTML5 with webGL will enable 3D games in the browser in a few years. So kids will get their free web games soon enough. And they will run well on mobile devices too.

    If there was nobody to ditch Flash, we would never see HTML5 take over the web, and all the innovation that will make an operating system like webOS truly shine in a couple of years.

    Getting rid of Flash is the greatest thing for webOS. In 5 years when most applications in the world are coded with HTML5 and Palm's vision is realized, we will all have Steve Jobs to thank.

    Without Apple there would be no Webkit. Hence no webOS. A web without Flash creates a world where webOS is king.

    Quite ironic but true.
  9. rfceo's Avatar
    Posts
    114 Posts
    Global Posts
    117 Global Posts
    #9  
    There are many websites that use flash technology the mobile operating systems that adopt flash will be ahead of the curve when it is available. Think of flash more as a codec it runs when it is needed, and is not running all the time. Apple has always opposed Flash, most likely because they cannot control it.
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by rfceo View Post
    Apple has always opposed Flash, most likely because they cannot control it.

    did you read the article linked in the first post?
  11. #11  
    Let me follow up my post with an example.

    Adobe created some potentially wonderful writing tools with the AIR platform. I say potentially, because the actual implementation renders them useless for many people.

    AIR is a platform inside a platform. As such, it cannot use many of the standard functions of an OS. Functions that we take for granted. It creates its own environment, has its own UI (which often clashes badly with the main OS), and is hardly compatible with simple things like drag and drop.

    So after starting to use their writing tools based on AIR, I realized that they do not support writing in an character sets other than roman characters. No cyrillic, no Asian fonts, even German isn't fully supported.

    So instead of coding these applications using web standards such as HTML 5, they are coding it in their proprietary platform that actually has limited functionality wrt the main OS. Why do they do this? Because they have their monopoly on the developping tools, that's why.

    So they are basically highjacking other OSes with their technology. It's a dangerous precedent for the web, and for innovation on various platforms.

    I for one do not care if Flash goes away. If Adobe recodes their AIR applications with HTML5, I will gladly use them. In the language of my choice, mind you.

    Steve Jobs doesn't want such crappy user experiences. I get his point, and it's sad that many people here don't.

    Conclusion.

    A web without Flash is an open web where webOS will be king. Can't wait.
  12. angiest's Avatar
    Posts
    933 Posts
    Global Posts
    952 Global Posts
    #12  
    Without Apple there would be no Webkit.
    Webkit is based on khtml, the HTML rendering engine developed for the KDE desktop environment for UNIXen/Linux.
  13. #13  
    by his argument, he needs to make iPhone OS open source, open the APIs, and stop fighting jailbreak by prociding root to the user.

    in otherwords, he needs to copy the webOS model.

    he should have bought palm to make a truly magical OS.
  14. #14  
    As much as I hate steve, I have to agree with him fully on this one. We can even see from a webos perspective that flash is dicking around. I have been waiting since november for it, and they just recently announced it was gettin pushed back even further. Then they go and blame palm for there being no flash, which is rediculess, webos has been ready for flash since 1.4.

    I didn't know that apple created webkit though, that was interesting to find out.

    Overall though, apple has a lot of great reasons not to implement flash, and if palm were to announce we weren't getting flash I wouldn't really care.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    by his argument, he needs to make iPhone OS open source, open the APIs, and stop fighting jailbreak by prociding root to the user.

    in otherwords, he needs to copy the webOS model.

    he should have bought palm to make a truly magical OS.
    So iPhone users can have crappy phones that crash all the time, too.

    Everyone should have to suffer!



    (I don't begrudge those who like to tinker with their phones - I welcome it. I just don't want to do it -which is why we returned my SO's pre. I just want to download an app and KNOW it will work, and not mess with anything else I might have already loaded on there. My coworker jailbreaks his iPhone and has some very cool stuff on there, but not worth it to me.)
  16. bruba's Avatar
    Posts
    743 Posts
    Global Posts
    752 Global Posts
    #16  
    Can't believe people always fall for his marketing propaganda. This guy is like the best spindoctor around. It always makes me think of the 1984 commercial. But the audience are actually Apple followers.

  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    Webkit is based on khtml, the HTML rendering engine developed for the KDE desktop environment for UNIXen/Linux.
    Yes, but without Apple, it would still only be used in KDE. It rose to prominence because of Apple.

    Without Apple HTML5 would not see widespread acceptance so fast. Apple's stance is greatly accelerating HTML5.

    Hence webOS.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoochild View Post
    I have been waiting since november for it, and they just recently announced it was gettin pushed back even further. Then they go and blame palm for there being no flash, which is rediculess, webos has been ready for flash since 1.4.
    Can you imagine all of the mobile world to depend on Adobe like that? This would considerably slow down the rate of innovation on the web.

    Apple is taking the right stance here. Their first focus is to create compelling technology to enrich people's lives. This is not just marketing guys. Apple is not a commitee company.

    Palm has Apple to thank in more ways then one.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by bruba View Post
    Can't believe people always fall for his marketing propaganda. This guy is like the best spindoctor around. It always makes me think of the 1984 commercial. But the audience are actually Apple followers.

    Not sure what you mean by "fall for". He runs his own company and makes decisions. He simply laid out his reasons for the decision to not accept / embrace Flash. I find his reasons reasonable and cogent.

    The marketplace will decide if it is a good decision or not. I STILL want Flash on my Pre. I just think he gave reasonable answers for his decision. There need not be "sides" in this. Adobe has their point of view. Apple has its. Jobs simply showed there was more thought put into not supporting / accepting Flash than just a 'hissy fit'.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    by his argument, he needs to make iPhone OS open source, open the APIs, and stop fighting jailbreak by prociding root to the user.

    in otherwords, he needs to copy the webOS model.

    he should have bought palm to make a truly magical OS.

    Giving root access is wonderful for hobbyists, next to useless for normal people who juts use their device to be productive.

    There is a LOT of fiddling around to make webOS devices usable. Hacking a device to add language input is not something I take pride in.

    My mobile device must be a tool, not a hobby. I might go back to Palm when they have a working device with international IME support. But having to hack for Japanese, hack for Russian, hack for Chinese, hack for French, and then making sure the hacks don't come in conflict with one another?

    Try adding international keyboards on an iPhone and you will see what I mean. In the world of Apple, some people can speak more than one language.

    I'll give HP and Palm one year to fix this. Then I'll gladly buy a Palm. Until then, I truly can't bother. If my freinds see me hacking one more computer or mobile device, they will lock me up with a straight jacket.
Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions