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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by BoraWare View Post
    Here's my thoughts: as it stands right now Flash may not be the greatest. But, we need a "first generation" of mobile devices running it in order for advancements to be made to make it run better.

    - Phil -
    Then why does Flash still run poorly on my MacBook? Flash and OSX have been around for awhile now.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk 421 View Post
    That is the flaw in your logic. A pull is often not enough. Actually, it is almost always too little. You also have to push! Care to wonder why hybrid cars are becoming more popular? It's crazy how short minded some companies can be. Electric cars were taboo in the industry for many years. Look at what this has caused? Do you think we'd be dealing with terrorism without the need for oil?

    The point is that Apple is the only company pushing HTML5. This will benefit all players, Palm and HP included. MOSTLY Palm. Flash benefits ONLY Adobe.

    While I am glad that Palm will get Flash, I am thrilled that Apple is pushing the better technology. Without their stubbornness, the adoption of the web as the main application platform - which is the premise behind webOS - would take many, many more years.

    In a year from now all major sites will be HTML5 compliant. A few years down the road Flash games will be replaced by webGL games. All these things will run beautifully on Palms, without sucking battery life.

    And we both know the reason why this will happen so fast. And it won't be because of Adobe.
    A pull is not enough? Do you remember Mosaic browsers? Once Al Gore invented the internet, it was (and is) the most rapidly adopted PC application in history. That was 100% pull because there was very little content available. But people saw immediate value, and at a blinding pace. Microsoft and Apple were both taken by surprise and didn't initially take it seriously.

    If it weren't for Xerox (GUI) and Mosaic (browser), you wouldn't have a webkit browser. If it weren't for AT&T, you wouldn't have Unix. If it weren't for Linus Torvold, you wouldn't have Linix. If it weren't for Linux (and Canon), you wouldn't have OSX or iPhone OS.

    How much of that was created by strong-arm tactics because pull wasn't enough? You really need to read about the history of silicon valley.

    Start with the book "Accidental Empires". Pretty enlightening stuff. Hopefully you can find it as an iBook so reading it will be a magical and awesome experience...
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Then why does Flash still run poorly on my MacBook? Flash and OSX have been around for awhile now.
    For the same reason Lotus 1-2-3 didn't run as well as Excel on Windows. It was well documented that MS used unpublished APIs to make their stuff work better than competing products. That was the initial finding that launched all the anti-trust efforts against Microsoft in the 90s. The dept of justice actually tried to break Microsoft into 3 companies (OS/App/Dev Tools) because of it.

    That's why apple apps can "multi-task" on an iPhone and others can't. Certain APIs are available only to apple applications.

    That's why iTunes pauses when the phone rings, and you can use safari while talking on the phone. If yo are listening to Pandora, not so much.

    Do you think there is a "department of helping adobe make flash work as well as quicktime" in the apple organization?
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    >>And your post is saying that I am suffering because my Pre+ isn't magical. You have to admit that was a bit ridiculous... >>>

    And where did I say this? Or probably more accurately, from what did you extrapolate this?
    From this post, on the same page:

    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    So iPhone users can have crappy phones that crash all the time, too.

    Everyone should have to suffer!
    If you didn't type that, then you have a really nasty bot controlling your computer. That would mean you aren't using a Mac or iPhone, because everyone knows they are 100% secure and can't be hacked. Never could, never will. Everyone knows that. They also never crash. If they do, it's the fault of the application, not the OS. If it's Safari that crashes, it's because Flash is running.

    In addition to being awesome and magical, they are secure. Stable, and bug free. I just wish I could be in that club. But I am destined to suffer crashes, forced to tinker with my phone, cling to guns and religion. but I can still dream of a day when I too can have magical apple products. don't take my dreams, i beg you.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    A pull is not enough? Do you remember Mosaic browsers? Once Al GoreIf it weren't for Xerox (GUI) and Mosaic (browser), you wouldn't have a webkit browser. If it weren't for AT&T, you wouldn't have Unix. If it weren't for Linus Torvold, you wouldn't have Linix. If it weren't for Linux (and Canon), you wouldn't have OSX or iPhone OS.
    Using this obscure linkage, if Edison and Tesla hadn't furthered the cause of widely available electrical power, then we never would have had Xerox or Mosaic!

    Back to history class for you. OSX is derived from NextStep which is a derivative of BSDUnix and the Mach kernel. Neither BSD (Berkeley, and a direct branch from AT&T's Unix) nor Mach (Carnegie-Mellon) were ever a part of Linux, which started with the Minix kernel and eventually grew into the GNU beast that it is today. Are you making up the other stuff you say too? Hmmm...
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    A pull is not enough? Do you remember Mosaic browsers? Once Al Gore invented the internet, it was (and is) the most rapidly adopted PC application in history. That was 100% pull because there was very little content available. But people saw immediate value, and at a blinding pace. Microsoft and Apple were both taken by surprise and didn't initially take it seriously.

    If it weren't for Xerox (GUI) and Mosaic (browser), you wouldn't have a webkit browser. If it weren't for AT&T, you wouldn't have Unix. If it weren't for Linus Torvold, you wouldn't have Linix. If it weren't for Linux (and Canon), you wouldn't have OSX or iPhone OS.

    How much of that was created by strong-arm tactics because pull wasn't enough? You really need to read about the history of silicon valley.

    Start with the book "Accidental Empires". Pretty enlightening stuff. Hopefully you can find it as an iBook so reading it will be a magical and awesome experience...

    All these thinsg are true, but irrelevant to the problem at hand. The things that you are mentioning are all technologies that were in their infancy. Things change fundamentally when the degree of acceptance in society increases. Palm is a really good example of that. It was a big fish in a small pond. Things were easy for them. Once again Jobs entered the field with a vision (as a packager of existing technologies), and changed the mobile world forever. Now it's a business for the big guys. The same thing happened with web browsers.

    An example of how vision is important. The iPhone is a TX with a cell radio. Why the h%(( couldn't palm make one? They created that form factor back in the 90's! Because it would not have had a real keyboard? They still won't make one after all these years! I've been waiting 5 years for one from Palm! I've become a joke among my non-techie friends who now all carry iPhones and large screen slate devices. I won't strain my eyes on a 3" screen reading ebook, or get carpal tunnel symdrome from typing on a liliputian keyboard.

    You can read Gutenberg ebooks on the iPad or iPhone, or the Kindle application. I will never use iBooks, or download music from iTunes. Noone is forcing me too. All the applications I will use when I get my fully international iPhone HD this summer are web based and multi-platform. Apple is not blocking any of them.

    I lost a lot investing in Palm. Now I am litterally broke. And I understand one thing. It's not just about technology and vision. It's about standing up for what you create. This requires amazing character. Rubinstein had vision, but no character. Jobs has both, in spades. And he deserves his success.
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    If you didn't type that, then you have a really nasty bot controlling your computer. That would mean you aren't using a Mac or iPhone, because everyone knows they are 100% secure and can't be hacked. Never could, never will. Everyone knows that. They also never crash. If they do, it's the fault of the application, not the OS. If it's Safari that crashes, it's because Flash is running.

    In addition to being awesome and magical, they are secure. Stable, and bug free. I just wish I could be in that club. But I am destined to suffer crashes, forced to tinker with my phone, cling to guns and religion. but I can still dream of a day when I too can have magical apple products. don't take my dreams, i beg you.

    Wow, its tough to respond to you when you claim I said something, and then as proof, you post something markedly different from what you claim I posted.

    LOL.

    Hey, I tinkered long enough with a Pre, guided by this place, to realize it wasn't going to work for me (or for my SO, who's phone it was). in fact, I was told right here we just weren't smart enough for a Pre. So be it. I have other talents.

    So as far as I am concerned, I get to be mad at the wasted time and expense, you know?

    But as far as talking about magical thingys, you've lost me. I have NO DOUBT you love your phone experience. If I implied that you didn't, I profusely apologize since I have no desire to put words in anyone's mouth.

    Especially anyone who speaks like my 5 year old niece hooked on princesses and My Little Ponies.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk 421 View Post
    You can read Gutenberg ebooks on the iPad or iPhone, or the Kindle application. I will never use iBooks, or download music from iTunes. Noone is forcing me too.
    Right on! Amazon MP3 and Mobipocket books FTW (well, except Amazon now owns Mobipocket). Apple's got no hold over me - even if I do use a couple of their fine products. Although, iBooks does use ePub which is an open standard.

    ...and Apple doesn't own the web either, but Adobe's trying to hold it hostage to their closed (buggy, resource hungry) software and its proprietary SDK.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk 421 View Post
    And we are -mostly- living without electric cars today because noone was smart enough to push for them.

    Apple is the best packager in the world. They don't innovate per se, just package innovation in a very usable whole. Nonetheless, it counts for a lot. They didn't create GUI, but without their vision, we would have used command lines for way too long.

    Apple is not preventing any company from using Flash. They are not preventing you from buying a webOS or - God forbid - an Android device. They are simply using their leverage to reduce the grasp that Adobe has on the web. This is a good thing for anyone involved with the web.
    By your own post "command lines for too long" isn't the same as saying we'd never have them.

    And you need to read up on anti-trust laws, as well as the years spent trying to keep microsoft from "simply using their leverage to reduce" what other competitors could bring to the OS that was dominating the computing world.

    No one would care what Apple does if they weren't dominating the smartphone world. The iPhone had become such a big part of the market, that Apple can now decide who makes money, who can be in the app store, who can have access to their customers, etc. And they want to decide what products will be built for other phones because its tough to make money building and supporting the same app on multiple platforms.

    If it weren't for those same anti-trust laws, you'd be driving Rockefeller car that burns Rockefeller gas, built with Carnegie steel, and running on Vanderbuilt roads...

    Controlling a market from raw material to ultimate consumption is known as a monopoly, which is the polar opposite of innovation.

    It's sad that history isn't taught in schools these days.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    Hey, I tinkered long enough with a Pre, guided by this place, to realize it wasn't going to work for me (or for my SO, who's phone it was). in fact, I was told right here we just weren't smart enough for a Pre. So be it. I have other talents.

    So as far as I am concerned, I get to be mad at the wasted time and expense, you know?
    And that is exactly why I will be getting the iPhoneHD as soon as I find a way to make up for the huge loss I had in Palm. At this point I can no longer afford to lose any time and energy hacking a phone, since it is all I have left.

    Palm is great for tinkerers, much like Android. The best platform for hobbyists, by far. But if you see your phone as a productivity tool, it's a major time waster. Much like my TX has been in the first year of ownership.

    The thing is, Palm made a computer geek out of me. This is so far away from my original goal of making sense of my messy life. PIM on the iPhone is really bad compared to webOS (and webOS is still in its infancy), but I would never consider investing time and mental focus on hacking a device anymore. Life is too short for that.

    And I have other talents that I want to use my time and energy for.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    Wow, its tough to respond to you when you claim I said something, and then as proof, you post something markedly different from what you claim I posted.

    LOL.

    Hey, I tinkered long enough with a Pre, guided by this place, to realize it wasn't going to work for me (or for my SO, who's phone it was). in fact, I was told right here we just weren't smart enough for a Pre. So be it. I have other talents.

    So as far as I am concerned, I get to be mad at the wasted time and expense, you know?

    But as far as talking about magical thingys, you've lost me. I have NO DOUBT you love your phone experience. If I implied that you didn't, I profusely apologize since I have no desire to put words in anyone's mouth.

    Especially anyone who speaks like my 5 year old niece hooked on princesses and My Little Ponies.
    Convenient that you cropped out the parts where you used the words "suffer" and "crash" to describe the world of WebOS. I'm glad you have an iPhone. Until recently, I would have bought one if it was available on VZ. But the recent nonsense from Apple has shown me that I need to resist that urge if/when iPhone comes to other carriers.

    Full disclosure: I own apple stock, and I will hang on to it. I just won't drink their magical kool-aide.

    And if your 5-year old niece talks like that, then she is imitating Jobs. He is the one that speaks in superlatives with no content in between.

  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    So iPhone users can have crappy phones that crash all the time, too.

    Everyone should have to suffer!

    For those scoring at home (and also for those that are alone...) here is the original post that uses the words "everyone should have to suffer", and "crappy phones that crash all the time"...
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    No one would care what Apple does if they weren't dominating the smartphone world. The iPhone had become such a big part of the market, that Apple can now decide who makes money, who can be in the app store, who can have access to their customers, etc. And they want to decide what products will be built for other phones because its tough to make money building and supporting the same app on multiple platforms.
    Again, you are starting with the wrong assumption. They are FAR from dominating the smartphone world. The last survey - from Gartner if I recall correctly - places buying intentions on iPhone at 25%, and 29% for Android. RIMM is at 13%, and the rest is too small to remember. (I suspect webOS will be at 5% or 10% in two years, if not sooner, since they have the best OS.)

    They will most probably plateau at 25%, perhaps even less, certainly in the PC category. That is far from a monopoly. There is absolutely no indication that they will get over 50% of the market. In fact, anything over 30% in this growing market is probably grossly exagerated.

    In any case, the WEB is becoming the next platform. This, in great part because of HTML5. In such a world, App stores will become redundant, because Apps will all be web apps with an offline cache. In this scenario, all platforms will eventually become like webOS. Palm just has a headstart. Native apps will still have a place, but it will be greatly diminished.

    The point is, in a world of HTML5 as the application platform, an OS becomes nothing more than an interface for the user. Again, in such a world, webOS is king.

    Apple's push for HTML5 will greatly help webOS. Palm will be worth over 50 billions to HP if they play their cards right. Perhaps even more. It's the best platform, just too immature for people who do not like to tinker. (For me international support being the big issue.)

    Apple has no intention of creating a monopoly. They want high margins on high end products. Read all their statements and you will see how obvious this is.

    You are creating an enemy where there is none. The world is now divided into three giants: Apple, MS and Google. As long as they are all fighting hard, there should be enough innovation for the next decade. Trust me, none of these three companies will get a monopoly. The rise of Android, and the resurrection of Windows Phone, will prevent that. (Not to mention Palm and HP.)

    And HTML5 is the ultimate barrier against monopolies, since it is the ultimate common platform, created on open standards.

    We don't live in the same monopolistic world as ten years ago in the tech world. History repeats itself in many cycles. We are now at a much different cycle than we were ten years ago.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Using this obscure linkage, if Edison and Tesla hadn't furthered the cause of widely available electrical power, then we never would have had Xerox or Mosaic!

    Back to history class for you. OSX is derived from NextStep which is a derivative of BSDUnix and the Mach kernel. Neither BSD (Berkeley, and a direct branch from AT&T's Unix) nor Mach (Carnegie-Mellon) were ever a part of Linux, which started with the Minix kernel and eventually grew into the GNU beast that it is today. Are you making up the other stuff you say too? Hmmm...
    Very good! My point wasn't a complete history lesson. It was to show the impact of open source, and to show the impact of pull (demand) to create innovation. That's what you need to land on.

    To your point, if Gutenberg hadn't invented move-able type, Tesla and Edison wouldn't have....

    And Canon begat NextStep, and NextStep married the heathen Scully, and they Begat OS9, etc etc.

    The point is that I was arguing against the statement that we only have innovation because of apple, and that nothing would be possible without Steve Jobs.

    He's really smart, usually right, and I really admire his accomplishments. I just think he has lost his mind over the success of the iPhone.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk 421 View Post
    Again, you are starting with the wrong assumption. They are FAR from dominating the smartphone world. The last survey - from Gartner if I recall correctly - places buying intentions on iPhone at 25%, and 29% for Android. RIMM is at 13%, and the rest is too small to remember. (I suspect webOS will be at 5% or 10% in two years, if not sooner, since they have the best OS.)

    They will most probably plateau at 25%, perhaps even less, certainly in the PC category. That is far from a monopoly. There is absolutely no indication that they will get over 50% of the market. In fact, anything over 30% in this growing market is probably grossly exagerated.

    In any case, the WEB is becoming the next platform. This, in great part because of HTML5. In such a world, App stores will become redundant, because Apps will all be web apps with an offline cache. In this scenario, all platforms will eventually become like webOS. Palm just has a headstart. Native apps will still have a place, but it will be greatly diminished.

    The point is, in a world of HTML5 as the application platform, an OS becomes nothing more than an interface for the user. Again, in such a world, webOS is king.

    Apple's push for HTML5 will greatly help webOS. Palm will be worth over 50 billions to HP if they play their cards right. Perhaps even more. It's the best platform, just too immature for people who do not like to tinker. (For me international support being the big issue.)

    Apple has no intention of creating a monopoly. They want high margins on high end products. Read all their statements and you will see how obvious this is.

    You are creating an enemy where there is none. The world is now divided into three giants: Apple, MS and Google. As long as they are all fighting hard, there should be enough innovation for the next decade. Trust me, none of these three companies will get a monopoly. The rise of Android, and the resurrection of Windows Phone, will prevent that. (Not to mention Palm and HP.)

    And HTML5 is the ultimate barrier against monopolies, since it is the ultimate common platform, created on open standards.

    We don't live in the same monopolistic world as ten years ago in the tech world. History repeats itself in many cycles. We are now at a much different cycle than we were ten years ago.

    I agree with you completely. I really do. Except the part about Apple not wanting a monopoly. If they didn't, they would "tolerate" flash. I don't really care about flash, I just don't think they should ban it.

    To be clear: Apple are dominating in the sense that most development resources are going to build iPhone apps, just as they used to go toward building windows apps. Remember when Jobs had to beg Gates to build MS-Office for OSX? Remember when Microsoft bought a bunch of Apple stock to keep them in business to avoid even more anti-trust issues? Remember when the only use for a Mac was desktop publishing? Remember how few good applications or games were available for the Mac? We don't want that to happen to WebOS. Not as much of a worry now that they have HP to fund development. I hope HP goes FTW.

    The point is that if developers have to build everything twice or choose between iPhone and WebOS user base... iPhone is where it will go. And if those apps leverage proprietary iphone stuff, they won't be ported to webos.

    Ironically, jobs should be watching his mirrors, because there are almost as many android developers now, and there are 50,000 apps in the android market. He may get beaten at his own game.
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 04/29/2010 at 03:04 PM.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    They are dominating in the sense that most development resources are going to build iPhone apps, just as they used to go toward building windows apps. Remember when Jobs had to beg Gates to build MS-Office for OSX? Remember when Microsoft bought a bunch of Apple stock to keep them in business to avoid even more anti-trust issues?

    The point is that if developers have to build everything twice or choose between iPhone and WebOS user base... iPhone is where it will go. And if those apps leverage proprietary iphone stuff, they won't be ported to webos.

    Ironically, jobs should be watching his mirrors, because there are almost as many android developers now, and there are 50,000 apps in the android market. He may get beaten at his own game.

    Again, you are greatly underestimating the impact that HTML5 will have on not just the mobile world, but all of the computing world. (Strange considering you own a webOS device.) Desktop OSes will be relegated to high end multimedia applications. Apps will be online. Not because they are too intensive for processors, but because of convenience. It makes upgrading to new PCs so much easier. Think Palm webOS, think Google Chrome OS. Why is IMAP better than POP3? Because it syncs to the web with an offline cache, just the way HTML5 works. (It's more complex than that, of course.)

    So develop for the web, and 90% of the code will be the same for all platforms. With an offline cache, the app will act as native. This is the whole point of HTML5. The web will win. The app store will become irrelevant. Will Apple block sites from Safari? That is highly unlikely, and possibly illegal too. Note that there are ways to develop in HTML5 for the iPhone. (Titanium is the name of the software that does this I think), and such apps ARE allowed on the iPhone. So Apple knows HTML5 is the platform of the future. Why do you think they are pushing for it?

    And you are contradicting yourself with your statement regarding the number of Android applications. Between 50000 and 200000, what is the difference to the end user? Nothing. The lack of Flash will hurt the iPhone in the end anyway.

    Think all you want, I believe we are living in a much more different world than before, full of competition and open standards. With the web at the forefront of this new world, it is imperative that it frees itself of closed technologies.

    It is Apple's very push for HTML5 that will prevent it from becoming a monopoly in the end. And you know what? Steve Jobs doesn't care, as long as his margins are high, and his products beautifully crafted and highly usable (without tinkering, thank God for people like me.)

    If anything, the biggest issue in this new world is privacy, not monopolies. This is what we should all worry about.
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    For those scoring at home (and also for those that are alone...) here is the original post that uses the words "everyone should have to suffer", and "crappy phones that crash all the time"...
    Dude, you SAID I said, "And your post is saying that I am suffering because my Pre+ isn't magical. You have to admit that was a bit ridiculous... I can't imagine what would lead you to think using my Pre+ is suffering..."

    If you can't see the marked differences between what I said and what you said I said, you are beyond a discussion.

    But in case you *REALLY* need it spelled out, my comment was in general to the statement of about opening up phone technology, and was not meant to bruise your ego in particular and certainly not your phone.

    I have no doubt your phone is fantastic. But for a non power user, not facile with homebrew, it was/is a disaster. And those phones - all of them, iPhones included - crash and perform badly in these circumstances.

    (I really hope you didn't NEED that explanation, and we can pretend I didn't just have to post it. )
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    I have no doubt your phone is fantastic. But for a non power user, not facile with homebrew, it was/is a disaster. And those phones - all of them, iPhones included - crash and perform badly in these circumstances.
    You go girl. Same reason I dumped windows and Outlook and went for a Mac. I have a bad case of OCD (posting a lot today, as you can see), so tinkering is a major time waster for me. Apple makes tinkering proof products.

    So iPhoneHD it will be for me. Once Palm webOS devices become highly functional without any tinkering, I will be the first to come back to Palm. But having to Doctor a phone and hack my way to international keyboards, and fixing everything after every update, is just too much work for me.

    I don't want my phone to become my hobby.
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I agree with you completely. I really do. Except the part about Apple not wanting a monopoly. If they didn't, they would "tolerate" flash. .....
    Ironically, jobs should be watching his mirrors, because there are almost as many android developers now, and there are 50,000 apps in the android market. He may get beaten at his own game.
    You seem to solve your own problem. Apple won't have a monopoly.

    No reason developers can't choose to develop for WebOS, Android or iPhone or some combination.

    And as you point out, its very likely Android will be the big winner in the apps game. So I honestly don't understand your beef, as least not as you've outlined it.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    And as you point out, its very likely Android will be the big winner in the apps game. So I honestly don't understand your beef, as least not as you've outlined it.

    Nah! The web will be the winner in the end.

    HTML5 will make app stores go the way of the dodo. Google knows this. One of their technology officers even mentioned it in an interview two or three weeks ago. Everybody is smart enough to know this, even Jobs. iAds are based on HTML5, remember? So they can even be deployed on the web, and on the device as a native app too. (Very webOSy, don't you think?) Coincidence? Nah! Titanium apps are allowed in the app store. Coincidence? I'll let you answer that.

    Apple will never get a monopoly. They will get the high end of the market. Like BMW. But they won't get 50%. Not in a million years! Not with all the players involved.
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