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  1. #21  
    i don't know the answer to this but doesn't flash provide the developer with some protection from getting their code stolen. Html is fully open for everyone to see, copy and adapt.

    its a double edge sword.

    also i think some of apples claims about reliability and performance have been debunked. Even on the mac adobe aren't allowed by apple to access the gpu. Hence sh!ty performance on macs.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by hagster View Post
    i don't know the answer to this but doesn't flash provide the developer with some protection from getting their code stolen. Html is fully open for everyone to see, copy and adapt.

    its a double edge sword.

    also i think some of apples claims about reliability and performance have been debunked. Even on the mac adobe aren't allowed by apple to access the gpu. Hence sh!ty performance on macs.
    Apple just gave access to the GPU of their newest Macs yesterday. And if developers use canvas, they can hide some code I believe. But you're right that it is an issue.
  3. #23  
    adobe screwed the pooch on postscript and microsoft developed truetype.

    adobe tried to avoid that with flash and mostly succeeded.

    microsoft then tried to do it (dominate with a proprietary standard) with windows media and plays-for-sure DRM.

    real networks tried to get apple to embrace Real Audio/Real Video with their own- DRM which they offered to license. Real also offered to adopt QT and apple DRM so they could join forces against microsoft. Real even put Helix into an open source model.

    apple rejected it (and sent the email from Rob Glasier to the WSJ as an extra insult) apple stuck to quicktime, fairplay, etc. the only 'open' thing was the AAC codec (mp3 isn't open or free). Apple refused to license their DRM, and still refuses to license it.

    flash came from nowhere and took control away from all three (real/ms/apple). especially once flash drm became secure enough to enable a service such as hulu.com

    no one wants a core part of their family jewels to be the property of another company (all three should have tried to buy adobe - or macromedia before adobe did. macromedia shopped themselves to all three before adobe)

    I get why jobs doesn't want his os depend on flash, but to refuse to support or allow it along side his own proprietary stuff? that's just arrogant, stupid, and bad for his customers.

    his success in changing the music industry by forcing single song purchases, single price for any song, and eventually support for selling mp3 songs without drm. those were good for customers and the music industry.

    his position on flash is none of thise things. his ability to use the police to go after a journalist? scarry.

    assume that gizmodo broke the law for a moment. assume you or I did it (because I am not a journalist). assume it was a stolen computer rather than an unannounced poduct. an you imagine any court being able to be influenced by the rightful owner to the point that they could come to your house and do what was done in this case?

    apple has lost their mind by becoming drunk on their own success. they have become microsoft, just as microsoft has become ibm. google is well down the same path.

    apple fans need to realize this. wireless carriers need to realize this.

    HP has the opportunity to rise above this with the palm acquisition.

    webOS FTW!
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 04/29/2010 at 01:12 PM. Reason: typo
  4. rfceo's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    did you read the article linked in the first post?
    Yes I did, and you have to realize that everything that comes from him is not gospel and do your own research. They only have flash on their computers because if they did not they would not be able to browse 100% of the websites. You even stated that flash on your mac is sub par, the question is why?
    Flash made it first big debut in August of 1996 with Microsoft when they launched MSN, back then it was know as FutureSplash, in December 1996 the company was sold to Macromedia and FutureSplash became Macromedia Flash 1.0. Apple had and still has a competing product QuickTime which they released in December 1991.
  5. #25  
    Cantaffordit,

    Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Very instructive.

    While I get your point, this is really about what is best for the web RIGHT NOW. This is not a game of who's right or wrong. It's about what technologies the tech world has interest in pushing forward and developing.

    And HTML5 is what it is.
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by rfceo View Post
    Yes I did, and you have to realize that everything that comes from him is not gospel and do your own research. They only have flash on their computers because if they did not they would not be able to browse 100% of the websites. You even stated that flash on your mac is sub par, the question is why?
    Flash made it first big debut in August of 1996 with Microsoft when they launched MSN, back then it was know as FutureSplash, in December 1996 the company was sold to Macromedia and FutureSplash became Macromedia Flash 1.0. Apple had and still has a competing product QuickTime which they released in December 1991.
    I know all that. I don't get your point.

    Are you saying Flash doesn't work well on Safari (to be fair, it works well when it works, but Flash doesn't crash at least once a day - I generally turn it off) because of Mac?

    Fair enough.

    I still don't see your point. And why you wouldn't support a move to an open technology, that makes web development easier for everyone.

    You need flash on your phone? You have plenty of choices. Don't need it but want technologies that brings certain features to your phone? You have choices.

    i don't see choices as a bad thing.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    I have searched and haven't seen this anywhere else yet, but I apologize if its been posted.

    Jobs puts together a pretty cogent argument on why no flash for the iPhone, and why he doubts there will be Flash - at all - for the mobile computing environment.

    I think this helps his case considerably.

    Thoughts on Flash
    Let me summarize Mr Jobs:

    1. He needs control of the UI for his touch-based products. Adobe could prevent or slow down his ability to innovate. Good point.

    2. DRM is not important, so embracing HTML5 either means he thinks he can kill DRM, or he will continue to provide it through the proprietary DRM he currently uses in iTunes. My bet is he will use his own DRM, locking everyone out of delivering secure content - because he refuses to license his DRM.

    3. Apple developers and methods are more magical than Adobe, and any lack of awesomeness might impact iPhone performance or battery. That might irritate Steve because he only accepts perfection, and he is the only one qualified to define perfection.

    4. Anything that doesn't come from his magical brain, or a magical brain that works for him (so that he owns any intellectual property it comes up with) cannot be allowed to touch his new platform (mobile/touch), because it might reduce the overall magical experience for his users/drones.

    5. All of this is to meet his vision, because ultimately he knows better than his customers (if you ever met the average iPhone user, he might be right...) If his position harms anyone that chooses to refuse to drink his cool aide, that's just the price of resisting his magical products.

    I wouldn't care about any of this if Adobe (and others) were still allowed in the neighborhood. If Flash-based UI couldn't keep pace with Apple's magical stuff, no one would use/buy it. Many dev platforms have come and gone because they didn't keep up. If flash-based apps and sites don't work for iPhone users, no one would use them. If Flash produces good stuff, people will keep buying/using them.

    I appreciate that Steve wants to do my thinking for me. I appreciate that I will pay the price for not letting him by having less magic in my phone and internet experience. I'm happy to pay that price because his magical stuff just really doesn't do anything for me.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I appreciate that Steve wants to do my thinking for me. I appreciate that I will pay the price for not letting him by having less magic in my phone and internet experience. I'm happy to pay that price because his magical stuff just really doesn't do anything for me.
    Without Steve Jobs you'd still be using a Treo.

    Anybody care to make a Photoshop of the Treo 1000, with Palm OS Garnet 5.49999999?

    Just make sure you don't lose that stylus!
  9. angiest's Avatar
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    #29  
    All of this is to meet his vision, because ultimately he knows better than his customers
    I thought you were talking about Gates there for a second.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk 421 View Post
    Cantaffordit,

    Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Very instructive.

    While I get your point, this is really about what is best for the web RIGHT NOW. This is not a game of who's right or wrong. It's about what technologies the tech world has interest in pushing forward and developing.

    And HTML5 is what it is.
    You are mostly right. Two problems:

    1. What about DRM? I don't like it, but content owners have the right to use it. How do Hulu.com, Netflix, or other content services protect their content with HTML5 (I really don't know, it might already be in there).

    2. Who has the right to force current web sites, services, and content owners to change. There is a cost (and lack of choice) in forcing someone to re-encode entire libraries of media in order to be available to the iPhone nation. It's nice to offer choice for future development, but what choice is there for what is on the internet today? Should't they be able to choose if and when to re-invent their wheels? Not everyone can afford to rebuild their entire platform and content the way youtube did for the iPhone...

    Other than that, I'm all about open and standard. That's why I have a WebOS phone. I want to have the same choices and applications available on my Palm phone that I do from a PC, whether I choose OSX, Windows, or Linux.

    Jobs doesn't agree that I should have that choice.
  11. bruba's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    i don't see choices as a bad thing.
    I don't either. And I choose flash. I'd at least like to be able to, when I want to.

    HTML5 != Flash. And let's face it, flash won't suddenly disappear. Maybe 70% of the sites use it now. Maybe 25% in 2013 (don't think so, since there'll still be IE6, IE7 and IE8), but that's still 25% of the sites you can't view fully 3 years from now (70% now). Since phones only get faster, and flash will arguably only get better, I think it would be best for any company to give their consumers the choice of flash. You can turn it off on your Mac. You can't turn it off on your iPad...
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk 421 View Post
    Without Steve Jobs you'd still be using a Treo.

    Anybody care to make a Photoshop of the Treo 1000, with Palm OS Garnet 5.49999999?

    Just make sure you don't lose that stylus!
    1. I still have my Treo, and it would still meet my needs if I used it.

    2. By that logic, no one else in the universe is smart enough to innovate. Without Jobs we would all be using punch cards and mainframe computers. No one else ever created something new and created a new industry.

    3. And yet, somehow the world is full of innovation, market creating new technologies, and visionaries. Maybe we would have seen smartphones develop slower or in a different direction, but to say innovation only comes from Jobs? Really? What else do I owe him? Laptop Computing? HDTV? Penicillin? I need to include them all in the thank you card I will send to cupertino.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    I thought you were talking about Gates there for a second.
    Steve Jobs is the new Bill Gates
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    2. Who has the right to force current web sites, services, and content owners to change. There is a cost (and lack of choice) in forcing someone to re-encode entire libraries of media in order to be available to the iPhone nation. It's nice to offer choice for future development, but what choice is there for what is on the internet today? Should't they be able to choose if and when to re-invent their wheels? Not everyone can afford to rebuild their entire platform and content the way youtube did for the iPhone...
    That is the flaw in your logic. A pull is often not enough. Actually, it is almost always too little. You also have to push! Care to wonder why hybrid cars are becoming more popular? It's crazy how short minded some companies can be. Electric cars were taboo in the industry for many years. Look at what this has caused? Do you think we'd be dealing with terrorism without the need for oil?

    The point is that Apple is the only company pushing HTML5. This will benefit all players, Palm and HP included. MOSTLY Palm. Flash benefits ONLY Adobe.

    While I am glad that Palm will get Flash, I am thrilled that Apple is pushing the better technology. Without their stubbornness, the adoption of the web as the main application platform - which is the premise behind webOS - would take many, many more years.

    In a year from now all major sites will be HTML5 compliant. A few years down the road Flash games will be replaced by webGL games. All these things will run beautifully on Palms, without sucking battery life.

    And we both know the reason why this will happen so fast. And it won't be because of Adobe.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    So iPhone users can have crappy phones that crash all the time, too.

    Everyone should have to suffer!



    (I don't begrudge those who like to tinker with their phones - I welcome it. I just don't want to do it -which is why we returned my SO's pre. I just want to download an app and KNOW it will work, and not mess with anything else I might have already loaded on there. My coworker jailbreaks his iPhone and has some very cool stuff on there, but not worth it to me.)
    If you don't like or use a Pre, why are you posting here? Can you spell t.r.o.l.l.? PreCentral has a sister site for iPhone...
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk 421 View Post
    That is the flaw in your logic. A pull is often not enough. Actually, it is almost always too little. You also have to push! Care to wonder why hybrid cars are becoming more popular? It's crazy how short minded some companies can be. Electric cars were taboo in the industry for many years. Look at what this has caused? Do you think we'd be dealing with terrorism without the need for oil?

    The point is that Apple is the only company pushing HTML5. This will benefit all players, Palm and HP included. MOSTLY Palm. Flash benefits ONLY Adobe.

    While I am glad that Palm will get Flash, I am thrilled that Apple is pushing the better technology. Without their stubbornness, the adoption of the web as the main application platform - which is the premise behind webOS - would take many, many more years.

    In a year from now all major sites will be HTML5 compliant. A few years down the road Flash games will be replaced by webGL games. All these things will run beautifully on Palms, without sucking battery life.

    And we both know the reason why this will happen so fast. And it won't be because of Adobe.
    A few years down the road, you will be correct. And 100% of the phones in use today will have been replaced. There is value in our current phones, and there is value in current web content. You are a true believer to assume that Jobs is really looking out for our best interest, he'd want us to have access to value now rather than sacrifice that for future benefit.

    Eventually, what you are saying could happen. By then I may not have the eyesight or nimble fingers to operate the next generation of smartpone.

    Those that want access to flash games today will be (mostly) be out of school, working, and not able to enjoy the benefits of what this could produce then - they want it on the phones they have now.

    But, you are being fooled by the Jobs magic if you think he is doing this in our best interest. He is all about being proprietary. If he weren't, he wouldn't use proprietary DRM, keep apps out of his app store, etc.

    We all want HTML5 and open standards to succeed. But we don't want his perverted brand to turn in into the closed system he needs.

    Remember when Microsoft "adopted" java and then instantly started adding proprietary extensions and doing things to make it harder for the java world? Sun sued and won to stop that. Imagine if they hadn't?

    If you read your history, you will see exactly what will happen if Jobs becomes the sole spokesman and "decider" for what is open, and what is allowed.

    He doesn't get do decide the future, he doesn't get to restrict the present, and it is possible to have world-changing innovation from someone other than Apple. Or are you still living without electricity, tv, a car, etc...
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 04/29/2010 at 02:11 PM.
  17.    #37  
    Jobs is REALLY powerful in your world....

    "If you don't like or use a Pre, why are you posting here? Can you spell t.r.o.l.l.? PreCentral has a sister site for iPhone..."

    My posting history is pretty clear if you're interested.

    And I might add, if you are not interested in reading takes on other platforms, please check the category you are posting in, and move on.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    Jobs is REALLY powerful in your world....

    "If you don't like or use a Pre, why are you posting here? Can you spell t.r.o.l.l.? PreCentral has a sister site for iPhone..."

    My posting history is pretty clear if you're interested.

    And I might add, if you are not interested in reading takes on other platforms, please check the category you are posting in, and move on.
    Good point. Post all you want.

    But Jobs isn't powerful, he is MAGICAL. And your post is saying that I am suffering because my Pre+ isn't magical. You have to admit that was a bit ridiculous... I can't imagine what would lead you to think using my Pre+ is suffering...
  19.    #39  
    >>And your post is saying that I am suffering because my Pre+ isn't magical. You have to admit that was a bit ridiculous... >>>

    And where did I say this? Or probably more accurately, from what did you extrapolate this?
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    He doesn't get do decide the future, he doesn't get to restrict the present, and it is possible to have world-changing innovation from someone other than Apple. Or are you still living without electricity, tv, a car, etc...
    And we are -mostly- living without electric cars today because noone was smart enough to push for them.

    Apple is the best packager in the world. They don't innovate per se, just package innovation in a very usable whole. Nonetheless, it counts for a lot. They didn't create GUI, but without their vision, we would have used command lines for way too long.

    Apple is not preventing any company from using Flash. They are not preventing you from buying a webOS or - God forbid - an Android device. They are simply using their leverage to reduce the grasp that Adobe has on the web. This is a good thing for anyone involved with the web. They might even lose marketshare for that. So what? Their goal has never been market share and monopolies, but rather to have the highest possible margins by creating highly usable products.

    The iPhone has 25% of the smartphone market. It will probably not grow too much. But the whole market will take the number of devices sold much higher in the next few years. They don't need a monopoly to grow even more.

    They have every right to to accept Flash, much like Nintendo has every right not to release Mario on PS3, or accept independant developpers. (Their loss.) DRM is a moot point. Steve Jobs famously said that he wanted to get rid of it. His selling point is how easy to use his ecosystem is. Everything is so well integrated, it all just disappears. After using a Mac for three years, I honnestly must say that it has changed how I use a computer. No more "hobbying around" hacking the registry. I just use it and it works. A computer is now a tool for me instead of a distraction.

    I wish the iPhone had Flash, but I recognize that it is a small price to pay to help technology move forward.

    You have to commend Jobs for having a vision for technology moving forward. The guy has guts too. Palm also had the vision, but their CEO didn't have the guts or managerial skills to compete. Hopefully HP will help them. But if Palm cannot remain somewhat independent, they will drown in the commodity that HP produces.


    PS: I am still using my TX after almost 5 years. Still a mess using different languages on the thing. Hours wasted hacking the thing making it usable. I'll never go there again. For me it's international OS or no buy.
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