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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Microsoft sold 100 million Windows 7 in about five months. Apple iPhone and iTouches will eat into each other sales which is not helped by iPad.
    I thought we were comparing Apple to HP not Microsoft.
  2. #22  
    HP's business is considerably larger and more influential than Apple's.

    HP sells heavily to enterprises, while Apple is almost entirely consumer.

    HP's market share in PCs is much larger than Apple's, as is its global reach in the PC market.

    Apple's strengths are in MP3 players and mobile smartphones, where HP is a bit player (hence the acquisition of Palm).

    However, HP's *massive* economies of scale and ability to make money on very low margins don't bode well for Apple.

    In fact, HP's scale is one of the things that have basically crushed Apple out of the PC market. It's the world's largest computer maker by unit sales, worldwide controlling 18.2%. Apple, by comparison, has around 1.5%. HP can buy components at a much lower cost and deliver significantly better machines than Apple can at equivalent price points, squeezing the Mac platform into a niche as a high-end boutique computer primarily sold in the USA.

    There's reason to believe they can do the same in smart phones and converged devices. With sufficient use of its scale in buying things like RAM, flash memory, processors, batteries, and displays, HP can sell high-end webOS phones at retail for lower than Apple's cost to produce iPhones. Eventually, Apple's products will be pushed into the same 1% to 2% global share that HP has helped relegate the dying Macintosh platform into.
  3. #23  
    Who even cares who is bigger than whom.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    HP can sell high-end webOS phones at retail for lower than Apple's cost to produce iPhones. Eventually, Apple's products will be pushed into the same 1% to 2% global share that HP has helped relegate the dying Macintosh platform into.
    Um buddy, I can buy a new Pre Plus for $5 now from my Verizon store. It still didn't help Palm.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by LCGuy View Post
    Lighten up everyone.

    HP's and Apple's market value is based on projected earnings per share and book value.

    The market is a VERY speculative place to be, as valuations can, and HAVE changed daramatically in a matter of weeks, days and, yes, even hours, for all types of publically traded corporations.

    Who cares if Apple is worth more than HP?

    I think what is more relevant here is that HP's acquisition of PALM is an extremely serious statement to the smartphone industry, on various levels:

    1. The smartphone industry is only in its inital stages, and will grow exponentially over the next 10+ years. Significant and calculated investments now could bring in HUGE rewards.
    2. HP, a technology company for many, many years, carefully researched PALM and WebOS, and sees real value above and beyond the current stock pprice of PALM. Clue for investing: buy low, sell high.
    3. HP was participating in the smartphone market with the Ipaq, and likely has a significant IP portfolio; this, coupled with PALM"s is likely going to present a formidable presence in the martphone sector, and APPLE will have to stand up and take notice, because with HP's monetary resources, and WEbOS's quality, along with the IP portfolio, the only thing standing in the way of the success of the HP/PALM devices will be hardware design and build quality.. something Im guessing is probably top level priority at PALM's headquarters right now.


    Suddenly I recall how beautiful Ipag when it was owned by Compag and how ugly when by HP. Hope will not happen to Palm.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    i'll play along...



    why? does the money people spend on consumer products and "boutiqe" computers have any less value?



    apple does san**** on guidance, but apple's stock is so high because they continue to make profit and GROW. growth is what feeds stock appreciation long term. the bumps on beating estimates are short term.



    hp does have higher revenue, but lower profit. would you rather own a $115B company making $7.5B profit, or a $43B company making $8.2B profit? why?

    (i'd chose the latter, as it's easier to grow sales at a smaller company, and for every dollar in sales you do have, you make more profit).
    Wow, What a formiddable company earning 20% profit margin on sale.
    HOWEVER, ONLY FOR 2009! Just three years before, apple could only earn 10% sales profit margin.

    Will Apple high profit margin be forever high?
    Listen to the Terminator I Microsoft, Terminator Dell II, Terminator II HTC, Terminator IV HP..... saids

    " Ask my hands"
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Um buddy, I can buy a new Pre Plus for $5 now from my Verizon store. It still didn't help Palm.
    HP isn't Palm. They're capable of scaling up the marketing side of the equation, as well as making sure that $5 device at Verizon has Nexus One-crushing hardware.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by lawtony View Post
    Wow, What a formiddable company earning 20% profit margin on sale.
    HOWEVER, ONLY FOR 2009! Just three years before, apple could only earn 10% sales profit margin.
    Macintosh gross margins were super-high in the 1980s and early 1990s too, until other competitors came in and undercut Apple on price.

    This is why they're so focused on creating a completely closed and locked-down app environment. They're counting on the volume of content and apps sold through the store, with its accompanying "Apple tax" of 30% of the sales price, to make up for the margin lost when hardware prices are pushed down.

    I'm not convinced it will work, because there will be "killer apps" invented for other platforms that are less restrictive, driving demand to other platforms. If they loosen up control when margins on hardware have shrunk, down plunges revenue (and profitability).

    This game is far from over, and HP (and Google) have other ways of monetizing the ecosystem beyond "just apps and hardware." HP's services business for enterprises could support all of webOS as a loss leader just to support deployed enterprise services, for instance.

    We live in interesting times!
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Apple's strengths are in MP3 players and mobile smartphones, where HP is a bit player (hence the acquisition of Palm).
    ...
    However, HP's *massive* economies of scale and ability to make money on very low margins don't bode well for Apple.
    ...
    In fact, HP's scale is one of the things that have basically crushed Apple out of the PC market.
    economies of scale on the pc / printer side doesn't translate into phones- as you said, one of apple's strengths is in phones, and in the past, they've reportedly bought out samsung's stock of certain chips. i.e. if anyone is crushing anyone due to economies of scale on the mobile side, it seems it would be apple crushing hp!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawtony View Post
    Wow, What a formiddable company earning 20% profit margin on sale.
    HOWEVER, ONLY FOR 2009! Just three years before, apple could only earn 10% sales profit margin. Will Apple high profit margin be forever high?
    20% net margin for a hardware company is pretty good. last year they were above 21% i believe- close to hpq's gross margins than their net margins.

    5 year average is 13.7%. compared to hpq's current 6.7% and 5 year 6.2%.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    This game is far from over, and HP (and Google) have other ways of monetizing the ecosystem beyond "just apps and hardware."
    apple collects 30% of the price of sales in itunes store- apps, music, video. that's a growing market for them, and it brought in $1.1B in revenue last quarter. yeah, b, as in billions. they're now added books too.

    they were (are?) collecting a portion of recurring revenue on iphone plans through att.

    and recently introduced iads, which they will be collecting money from as well. rumors are of $1M buy-ins and estimates of some $250M in revenue per quarter to start.
    Apple iAd Platform’s Entry Fee Reported to Be $1 Million (Updated) | Epicenter*| Wired.com
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    You couldn't be more wrong.

    The number one reason why corporations exist is to increase shareholder value. One of the ways that a corporation does that is by making a lot of money and no tech company brings in as much profit per product than Apple. Look at the chart in this web link and study it. Copy and paste it.

    businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-revenue-vs-operating-profit-share-of-top-pc-vendors-2010-3

    Furthermore, you talk about how HP brought in double Apple's revenue. That doesn't mean jack. What's important is what your profit is after you have paid the bills. In the end Apple stomps all over HP when it comes to profits. I could go on and on. But, I'll give you an example to make it simple. If you had a pizza joint that sold pizzas for $4.99. This pizza joint is a no frills basic restaurant. You sell 3,000 on average per month and after paying for all the ingredients, employees wages, rent, etc and your profit, 3,742.50. That is 25% of your revenue that you have as profit.

    Then you have the Pizza Place and it gives you pizzas of a gourmet quality. They have nice booths, a bar, a wait staff, etc. But, their pizzas cost 7.99 and they only sell 1,750 pizzas per month, but their profits after paying all expenses is 6991.25. That is 50% of your revenue. They are able to get 50% profit because they are very good at keeping expenses low, while giving a better atmosphere, thus being able to charge more per pizza.

    Now, which restaurant would you rather own? Just like you wouldn't work twice as hard for half the hourly wage if you didn't have to. Apple is not going to sell twice as many computers for half the price of what they are currently selling.

    The above examples are HP and Apple. It's like Ford = HP and BMW = Apple. If you were to ask the average schmuck on the street which car they would like to drive, they would say BMW, BUT can only afford to drive a Ford. That's HP and Apple. But, the kicker is that HP really can't take anymore significant marketshare in the PC market from others like Dell, since Dell is a fierce competitor. But, all Apple has to do is lower their prices anytime they want to get more sales and increase market share. So, between the two Apple can continue to grow which can justify their stock price, whereas HP can basically tread water holding onto what they already have and they have the lower stock price and market value.

    Hope you and others learn a thing or two and not be so clueless.
    Like you said, Apple will be forced to lower its margins as it begins to face fiercer competition.

    Hope you and other 2-post-trolls "learn a thing or two and not be so clueless" (engrish?)
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Um buddy, I can buy a new Pre Plus for $5 now from my Verizon store. It still didn't help Palm.
    Dude - why are you so negative about everything but ur lovely iPad? it just isn't a way to live.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    There's reason to believe they can do the same in smart phones and converged devices. With sufficient use of its scale in buying things like RAM, flash memory, processors, batteries, and displays, HP can sell high-end webOS phones at retail for lower than Apple's cost to produce iPhones. Eventually, Apple's products will be pushed into the same 1% to 2% global share that HP has helped relegate the dying Macintosh platform into.
    The Macintosh platform doesn't seem to be dying. Right now its growing thanks to MS Vista, the iPhone and perhaps the move to Intel hardware. It would be useful to see the relative share of HP and Apple in the consumer PC space. HP sells a lot of blades to large corporate IT depts. Great for them but perhaps not relevant to the consumer space. Also, when Apple sells a computer they are also selling and OS, HP is selling Microsoft's OS.

    HP will be great for Palm's finances but they won't make Palm cooler or be able to help much improving the technology.
  14. #34  
    This is one of the most knee-jerk, defensive, insecure, validation seeking posts I have ever seen on this board. OP, do you really need to feel like Palm, (under the ownership of HP) is bigger than Apple to feel good about yourself and the recent acquisition? Read your own post. Which one of those figures do you not believe? Did you win a bar bet for finding people who could spin those numbers to be in HP's favor? Is Apple all you think about? Let it go. Be happy with what you have. Root for your team and enjoy the game. I thought Apple fans were religious zealots until I met Palm fans.
  15. #35  
    I think that Apple sells better than HP, Anything PC's, laptops and maybe ( because no one knows what a HP phone would be like) Phones,Music player and Apple really sells a life style. Everything sync flawlessly. I Root for webOS but doubt it will last.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by bdog421 View Post
    HP will cut into apples and all other smartphone makers bottom lines regardless, that expands HP's bottom line. The point of it all is more money for HP. Smart move for any company looking to expand it's horizons.$$$$$
    While it's possible you're correct, it's a long way from the certainty your post exudes. HP has been marketing smart phones since 2001 and has never made a dent in the marketplace. Palm's marketplace dent faded in 2008 and the Pre did nothing to improve that situation. So now you feel combining the polar-opposite cultures of these two bit-players in the smartphone market will cut into all the the smartphone makers bottom lines? Interesting.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by BAbnkr View Post
    Dude - why are you so negative about everything but ur lovely iPad? it just isn't a way to live.
    The iPad is pretty impressive though. I got mine on Friday. First iPhone OS device I have owned (my wife has an iPod touch). I like it so much, I expect to only use my WindowsXP net book for Quicken going forward. I used it to type this post.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    The Macintosh platform doesn't seem to be dying. Right now its growing thanks to MS Vista, the iPhone and perhaps the move to Intel hardware.
    Nope.

    Vista is dead, Windows 7 is out and it's getting rave reviews. Ironically, a lot of it was developed by former Apple people who quit Apple as Jobs de-emphasized the Macintosh.

    Apple's two biggest Mac developers, Adobe and Microsoft, have been abused by the company and have been winding down development and discontinuing products for a while.

    Apple itself has moved the vast majority of its OS developers to iPhone/iPad. Mac OS X for desktops gets minor updates here and there, that's about it.

    Even Apple is abandoning the Macintosh. It will receive very little attention at Apple's developer conference in June, and Mac developers cannot enter their apps into Apple's design awards, since the platform is no longer supported for those.

    The Macintosh is a zombie platform -- an overpriced hard drive for iTunes. If it lasts 36 months, I'd be shocked.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Nope.

    Vista is dead, Windows 7 is out and it's getting rave reviews. Ironically, a lot of it was developed by former Apple people who quit Apple as Jobs de-emphasized the Macintosh.

    Apple's two biggest Mac developers, Adobe and Microsoft, have been abused by the company and have been winding down development and discontinuing products for a while.

    Apple itself has moved the vast majority of its OS developers to iPhone/iPad. Mac OS X for desktops gets minor updates here and there, that's about it.

    Even Apple is abandoning the Macintosh. It will receive very little attention at Apple's developer conference in June, and Mac developers cannot enter their apps into Apple's design awards, since the platform is no longer supported for those.

    The Macintosh is a zombie platform -- an overpriced hard drive for iTunes. If it lasts 36 months, I'd be shocked.
    Windows 7 is Vista with some of the major problems addressed. Microsoft had to drop the Vista name because it had become so devalued.

    Its true that Apple and Adobe have been butting heads recently but there is zero chance of Adobe abandoning the Mac platform. Microsoft's support of Mac has always been lukewarm (believe it or not, they want you to buy windows).

    The idea that Apple would abandon the Mac platform or it would be discontinued in 36 months is absurd. The success of the iPad is likely to benefit Mac OS. According to one report, about 30% of households accessing the web with iPads do not have a Mac. If these iPad owners find they enjoy not using Windows to access the Web, they may find the idea of getting rid of Windows completely quite attractive.
  20. #40  
    Windows 7 is outstanding, as most reviews note. The whole Apple spin on the issue is rather silly -- it's like saying that "Mac OS X 10.6 is just Mac OS X 10.0 with all its problems and a few tweaks." Nonsensical.

    The Macintosh is headed for a rapid end. All the signs are there, from Apple reducing development on OS X to a crawl to Apple discontinuing developer awards for the Mac.

    They'll sell "Macs" for as long as they're profitable (and how could they not be, being white-box Intel PCs with a 500% markup?), but the Macintosh has no future. It's a walking-dead legacy platform with little innovative development.

    Windows, in contrast, has lots of innovation and new development -- it's an active ecosystem, not a faded legacy box used primarily for running Adobe apps (and serving as a hard drive for iTunes downloads).
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