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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    There's no service for it, no. And barkerja's 'catch-all' description for the task finishing service doesn't cover that either.

    Sure, there's a bunch of things you can do, but there's limits to it. That's the problem with Apple's implementation (that and the fact that all of the developers now have to go back and update old software to take advantage of that- maybe not a problem for some of the bigger devs, but what about the smaller ones with apps that are years old?)

    Apple's implementation is not nearly as future-proof as webOS' either. Apple will have to continue to refine and add to the background services otherwise they'll get left behind in the area of multitasking. With webOS on the other hand, anything that can be done by an application can be done with the app in a card in the background. While Apple's version might help them with memory usage now, as the technology advances, that'll become less and less relevant anyway.
    To the end user what is the difference between their current implementation (how Beejive and IM+ make use of the push notifications) and running a TRUE background task that consumes resources + battery? There isn't any. All the end user knows is that they're always connected and available.

    Apple's push notification system was good in the beginning, when it's married with the new multitasking features it will be great.

    Again, it's all about the user experience.

    Where is the push system that Palm has been promising us developers since the ... well the launch of WebOS? No mention has been made of it since it was first announced. There are often times when running a background task isn't ideal.

    For example, I was writing an application for a location based social network that included comments on posts/checkins/etc. Instead of having the application poll the service every x minutes checking for new notifications it would be more beneficial to have the service ping the user as new notifications arrive. But no, I am forced to contribute to the already abysmal battery life and sluggishness of the Pre/WebOS.
    Last edited by barkerja; 04/09/2010 at 08:34 PM.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    To the end user what is the difference between their current implementation (how Beejive and IM+ make use of the push notifications) and running a TRUE background task that consumes resources + battery? There isn't any. All the end user knows is that they're always connected and available.

    Apple's push notification system was good in the beginning, when it's married with the new multitasking features it will be great.

    Again, it's all about the user experience.

    Where is the push system that Palm has been promising us developers since the ... well the launch of WebOS? No mention has been made of it since it was first announced. There are often times when running a background task isn't ideal.

    For example, I was writing an application for a location based social network that included comments on posts/checkins/etc. Instead of having the application poll the service every x minutes checking for new notifications it would be more beneficial to have the service ping the user as new notifications arrive. But no, I am forced to contribute to the already abysmal battery life and sluggishness of the Pre/WebOS.
    I thought your story was last time that you 'wanted to develop a webOS app and then gave up on the platform', now you're supposedly developing for it again?

    The difference to the user is that Apple's implementation has limits in that it only can do what Apple wants you to be able to do in the background. With the Pre, the developer can do anything in the background that they could do in the foreground. If you can't see how there's a difference there, then you're every bit the troll your repeated posts bashing everything non-Apple make you seem to be.

    With your examples of IM+ and Beejive, to use an example, the user is forced to use a intermediary if they want to stay on in the background. In other words, you're logging into the Beejive servers, and the Beejive servers are logging into your IM account (which by the way is exactly how Verichat worked until the service got discontinued). Then, to get your messages to your phone, the Beejive server then contacts the Apple push notification server to tell your phone that it has to connect to Beejive to download your messages. I don't know about you, but I don't want my IMs going through another intermediary, I'd rather connect directly to AIM, directly to Google. However, since there's no service for IM, push notifications are the only way to do so on the iPhone.

    Yes, Palm hasn't gotten their Mojo Messaging Service completed yet for 'you developers'. (Though, it also took Apple much longer than they expected to get that completed, while we're on the subject.) That doesn't change the fact that Palm's multitasking method is much more powerful. And when Palm does get their Mojo Messaging Service completed, the developer will be able to choose which method to use, whether they want to pull in the background, or have things push. On Apple, if you're not using one of the few background services they've provided, the developer has no choice, a running theme for Apple.

    The iPhone method (very similar to the original Palm method almost a decade ago on Garnet, so it's not like I don't have any experience with similar methods) will be good enough for most users for a while, but it's limiting. Apple will keep needing to add new background services as people come up with new methods to use applications. With Palm, what the developer wants to do in the background is in the hands of the developer.
  3. #23  
    The keyword there is was developing .. I don't develop for WebOS anymore, the user base isn't large enough to sustain a profit or be worthwhile, but that's another story for another time.

    You don't need to explain to me how the service works, that's not what we're discussing here. All that matters is the experience for the user, and 20 to 30 some million users seem to be enjoying the experience. These services that Apple has developed, while yes, are limiting will ultimately drive the experience for the user which is all that matters.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    The keyword there is was developing .. I don't develop for WebOS anymore, the user base isn't large enough to sustain a profit or be worthwhile, but that's another story for another time.
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja
    But no, I am forced
    Well then the point with that is make up your mind, or at least get your tense right. You can't one minute say that you're working on an app in the present tense and then interchange the past tense back and forth with it.

    But in all honesty, I am really curious why you continue to post here. I don't mean that as a slight or anything, but in many posts you've made it abundantly clear that you don't like what Palm is doing for developers, you don't currently develop for it, you don't use a webOS device, you don't have any interest in using one. So I am genuinely curious about that, not being rhetorical by any means. The iPhone is good for many users, but I don't like it for myself, so you don't see me compelled to read every Apple forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    You don't need to explain to me how the service works, that's not what we're discussing here.
    How the service works has everything to do with the user experience. I personally, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, don't want my IMs going through an intermediary. But connecting directly to the IM server (AIM or Yahoo or whatever) is physically impossible in the background on the iPhone. It's a perfect example of how if Apple doesn't foresee something as being a need, you can't do it on their system.

    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    These services that Apple has developed, while yes, are limiting
    That's the biggest thing I've ever said on the matter, that it'll be good enough for most users but after a while it's going to feel limiting, just like the same setup felt in Garnet. Apple will have to continue to add services, while Palm's implementation is more future-proof and gives more choice. It's not good enough for me in any way, because once I at least used the full multitasking on webOS, there's no way I could go back to how it was on Garnet / how it's going to be on the iPhone. But yes, many users won't notice much of a difference, until they hit the wall of what Apple doesn't yet allow.
  5. #25  
    iPOS5.0.....duh. then they'll leave out this and that which will come in 6.0. But then there's that other thing which gets added in 7.0... Think apple can afford to leave out whatever they hell they want. Their customers are junkies hanging on their next fix, and they give them just enough to feel the early signs of withdrawal before the announcement of their next fix which they have no idea what it is until Apple sees what everyone else has already done, then they add it, claim they're the only ones that do it right and the world rejoices like they just fused the atom.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    That's the biggest thing I've ever said on the matter, that it'll be good enough for most users but after a while it's going to feel limiting, just like the same setup felt in Garnet. Apple will have to continue to add services, while Palm's implementation is more future-proof and gives more choice. It's not good enough for me in any way, because once I at least used the full multitasking on webOS, there's no way I could go back to how it was on Garnet / how it's going to be on the iPhone. But yes, many users won't notice much of a difference, until they hit the wall of what Apple doesn't yet allow.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  6. #26  
    I Do not want to appear as palm fan boy, but the iphone os4.0 multitasking is absolutely RIDICOLOUS.
    The funny thing is that Apple users would call it a miracle.
    And we, Pre users, that use multitasking from the first device in the palm new course, will have a big laugh.
    Apple is blind. apple users are more than that.
  7. Smubeht's Avatar
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    #27  
    I think the biggest concern is as jhoff80 points out. While its probably great and all for most people, especially already existing iPhone users who don't have the capability already, all the apps written for the iPhone all 150k or so of them, will have to be reworked to allow this. This leads to questions on how difficult is it to implement, if its easy then thats good for Apple devs, if its not well that will decrease 150k usable apps to way less, because once people get used to multitasking, whether its limited or not, they aren't going to want to use apps that can only run in the foreground. Also as he stated about the small players in the market, will they have resources to easily convert their apps to have their own background processes. WebOS in nature automatically handles all of that. The biggest handicap for webOS seems to be that the hardware currently used cannot handle the greatness of the OS. The key thing to look at is not current generation but the future. When the sluggishness of webOS is gone due to the current phone its on having a > 1ghz processor and sufficient memory to handle the simultaneously running apps vs iPhone with the same specs in their new model, the implementation on webOS just seems superior. Don't get me wrong the iPhone implementation will likely be sufficient for most if not all current apple users(including the mass of fan boys) and realistically palm will never achieve the glory apple gets, but i still believe that it is inferior method to multitasking.

    Some one made a video with iPhone multitasking with the bottom bar being like coverflow that was a much better implementation than this, and in that video it seemed like you could swipe up to remove apps. To remove an app from background in iPhone u hold down the icon and then click the tiny - button to remove it. As good as the touchscreen is, I am sure that is not going to be fun to click.



    Now if it was like this I would totally consider the switch(if the iPhone came to Sprint of course)

    Note: Sorry for potential run-on sentences, take the content at face value please and do not dissect my grammar. Thanks =)
  8. #28  
    Other than (maybe) IM type of services, what other aspect of multitasking did Apple miss? It's not clear to me why full-blown multitasking should be enabled for all applications (e.g., via cards) if an application only needs a subset of multitasking services. Unless of course the goal is simply so that one can claim 'full multitasking.'

    Am I missing something here?
  9. #29  
    you're missing the elitist fanb0ys that think webOS is the only way and all else is rubbish and god forbid should the masses be satisfied with anything less than a potentially great OS on sub par hardware. .
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  10. XGC75's Avatar
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    #30  
    I have arguments with my android-touting (f4nboys, self-admittedly) friends about this subject often. They don't understand how important it is for any API to be capable of parallel processing, rather than the ones that the OS dev's product designers allow.

    Of course the mobile OS developers don't expect that the average user will need anything more. This is an understandable proposition when the hardware is as limited as it is today, even with the Snapdragon. Nevertheless, let me propose this: What if Microsoft took the same approach to Windows 95? Only Microsoft's services can process in parallel with the currently active program. I can't imagine the computing landscape would be as colorful as it is today. Do you think that playing music on our PC's would be the norm, when Microsoft would have been responsible for writing that service?

    It's the matter of possibility, here. WebOS was designed ground-up with this in mind, and that will make all the difference in the world.
    Last edited by XGC75; 04/10/2010 at 10:43 AM. Reason: I don't think fanb0y is a bad word..
  11. Stormbot's Avatar
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    #31  
    @crogs571
    @Really mobile

    I agree.
  12. #32  
    XG, you can have all these theoretical arguments you want. You can try to evangelize and spread the good word, but in the end, who the f cares if the masses are happy with the product and their experiences with it. Seriously. I don't care if webOS will make my bed and get me laid at the same time. It's still buggy and the hardware is just adequate. Why would the masses want to leave a highly polished device inside and out with the strongest app following just because webOS multitasks better, and in the end, isn't that what really matters?
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    Why would the masses want to leave a highly polished device inside and out with the strongest app following just because webOS multitasks better, and in the end, isn't that what really matters?
    Yeah, you summed up exactly what we're saying.
  14. #34  
    I'm sorry...I thought it was the user experience on a highly polished device with the strongest app following and a marketing machine behind it. We're talking about a phone here. Because the iphone has such a head start, people don't care they were in the same boat with the iphone a few years ago and won't accept it with webOS and its subpar equipment. And if Apple's form of multitasking is good enough, why would they take five steps back to barely take six forward at the moment? The fanb0ys can hem and haw and preach all they want. It falls on deaf ears. If webOS were less buggy and didn't need Preware and patches to be usable by many and had better hardware, maybe others wouldn't need to preach so loud.
    Last edited by crogs571; 04/10/2010 at 02:44 PM.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    I'm sorry...I thought it was the user experience on a highly polished device with the strongest app following and a marketing machine behind it. We're talking about a phone here. Because the iphone has such a head start, people don't care they were in the same boat with the iphone a few years ago and won't accept it with webOS and its subpar equipment. And if Apple's form of multitasking is good enough, why would they take five steps back to barely take six forward at the moment? The fanb0ys can hem and haw and preach all they want. It falls on deaf ears. If webOS were less buggy and didn't need Preware and patches to be usable by many and had better hardware, maybe you and others wouldn't need to preach so loud.
    First of all, the majority of webOS users don't use Preware and patches, just the ones in this forum. Better hardware is clearly not an issue for everyone as seen by the thread about who's on their first Pre. And as for Apple taking steps forward and back, don't forget there's still the ridiculous modal notification system.

    But anyway, who's preaching about the multitasking exactly?

    From various threads on the subject:

    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80
    That's the biggest thing I've ever said on the matter, that it'll be good enough for most users but after a while it's going to feel limiting, just like the same setup felt in Garnet.
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80
    Like I said in another thread, I suspect it'll be good enough for the majority of iPhone users for a while. But for me (and I'm sure others), it's way too limited. It's one of the reasons I switched from Garnet to WM in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80
    Basically, this is exactly what Garnet did with multithreading. It was good enough for a while, but as time went on it felt more and more limiting.

    I'd bet it'll be similar for iPhone users. Good enough for a while, but it'll leave them wanting more a little further down the line.
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80
    As of right now, it remains in my opinion nearly to how it was in Garnet, which again felt limiting after a few years when the competition was way past that. Maybe that won't be the case with the iPhone, we'll have to see.
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80
    Not to be a broken record, but my suspicion is that it'll be good enough for a while for the iPhone, but they'll need to revisit their method a few years down the road. Palm (if they manage to stay around that long) already has a method that'll continue to work, and as the hardware becomes more powerful, their method becomes more powerful.
    There's more, but I think that's enough for my point. I'm not saying that this isn't a huge improvement for Apple. I'm not saying that it won't be good enough for most users. In fact I think I've been pretty consistent in this thread and others in saying the exact opposite, that it's good enough for many, but not for all. For those that it's not good enough for, there's webOS. How is that preaching and being an 'elitist fanb0y' exactly?
  16. #36  
    okay...others lumped the snide remark with the preachers.

    edited.

    the ones that are preaching act like the Pre's free form multitasking is the holy grail of phone use and all else is crap. so while not good for you, maybe me and some others, it doesn't mean many won't be perfectly content with it and a step in the right direction for Apple. The only thing that ticks me off on their side is the attitude like they are the only ones that do it right on top of when they say they've done it first.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  17. XGC75's Avatar
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    #37  
    You guys are the last two on this thread
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    But in all honesty, I am really curious why you continue to post here. I don't mean that as a slight or anything, but in many posts you've made it abundantly clear that you don't like what Palm is doing for developers, you don't currently develop for it, you don't use a webOS device, you don't have any interest in using one. So I am genuinely curious about that, not being rhetorical by any means. The iPhone is good for many users, but I don't like it for myself, so you don't see me compelled to read every Apple forum.
    Why? Because underneath all my frustration I still have an inkling of hope for Palm. I was excited when WebOS was announced and showcased at CES2009 and left my iPhone for the Pre in August.

    To simply put it, I've been utterly disappointed ever since, both as a user and a developer.

    I despise 'fan.boys', and I see just as many here as I do on other forums (iPhone, Android, etc.). Don't think that I give any sort of differential treatment elsewhere, every device has its flaws, I just think WebOS/Palm has a few more at the moment.

    And for you developers out there that think WebOS is the greatest platform to hit mankind in terms of development, please tell me ... how do I have multiple process threads in my application?
    Last edited by barkerja; 04/10/2010 at 05:38 PM.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    To the end user what is the difference between their current implementation (how Beejive and IM+ make use of the push notifications) and running a TRUE background task that consumes resources + battery? There isn't any.
    So, using services doesn't consumes resources + battery, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    All the end user knows is that they're always connected and available.
    The fact is they aren't connected and available. When using Apple's push notifications, everytime an user gets a message they've to login again to the service.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    So, using services doesn't consumes resources + battery, isn't it?
    In comparison not nearly as much, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    The fact is they aren't connected and available. When using Apple's push notifications, everytime an user gets a message they've to login again to the service.
    It's completely seamless, as it's not just a notification that's being pushed but the actual data/message. So when you open the app the message(s) are there.
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