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  1. tedknaz's Avatar
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    #301  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Agreed 100%. At the end of the day we are arguing semantics. However, show that same family member how to open and switch between apps in WebOS and again in iPhone 4.0 and see what happens. I'm willing to bet most end up deciding that WebOS is easier to use and slicker to just look at.

    Now if only Palm could open a ton more APIs, market their products better, and get the hardware issues solved 100% they'd be golden
    I'm with you on that, but I feel like they're not getting there. I mean, if I was better looking, had more money, and could jetski while doing a handstand, well that would be totally awesome. lol.
  2. solarus's Avatar
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    #303  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    I am so confused. iPhone OS 4.0's multitasking implementation provides all of the benefits of WebOS' preemptive multitasking without any of the memory management issues.

    How is this a bad thing?
    Its not. Its just that a lot of users prefer to have full control over when they open and close apps. They don't want the OS running processes that don't need to running (if I flick my browser off screen I want it closed).

    I have to say the way Apple implemented multi-tasking is actually quite sweet, but for me its another example of Apple controlling too much of my experience - in this example, what kind of applications I can have running in the background. Granted most users won't care because most reasons for multi-tasking are covered. Then again, WebOS does provide a much easier to understand way for the end-user to multi-task - the card interface just works so seamlessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by tedknaz View Post
    I'm with you on that, but I feel like they're not getting there. I mean, if I was better looking, had more money, and could jetski while doing a handstand, well that would be totally awesome. lol.
    LMAO....this thread needed that, getting a little too serious here.
  3. #304  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Its not. Its just that a lot of users prefer to have full control over when they open and close apps. They don't want the OS running processes that don't need to running (if I flick my browser off screen I want it closed).
    the main point here is that if apple did it right with this multitasking, then you dont care about processes running in the background because you will not notice it or it wont bog your system down that you feel you have to.

    this is not microsoft windows... no ctrl alt delete and end task. this is not palm with 'too many cards open'
  4. #305  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Jeez aren't we just a little bit pedantic today .

    For most people (i.e. end-users, not technical types) the UI of multi-tasking is what they tend to view as multi-tasking so its easier to put it in language everyone understands.
    that's all fine, and i have no problem with that, but it's idiotic for those non technical types to come into a forum and say "it doesn't multi task as well!" when they're really talking about something being prettier, not to mention that to those same users, the implementation details really don't matter anyways.

    Agreed 100%. At the end of the day we are arguing semantics. However, show that same family member how to open and switch between apps in WebOS and again in iPhone 4.0 and see what happens. I'm willing to bet most end up deciding that WebOS is easier to use and slicker to just look at.
    slicker, yes, easier, not so much. it's essentially the same- a couple cards you swipe back and forth to select from.
  5. #306  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Its not. Its just that a lot of users prefer to have full control over when they open and close apps. They don't want the OS running processes that don't need to running (if I flick my browser off screen I want it closed).
    Why?
  6. #307  
    I can't wait for this to come out. People were complaining about battery life when the 3G-S was introduced, what do you think will happen when users keep all of these programs running at the same time? Zap! And without the ability to change the battery (thank you Palm!), these phones will never make it through the day, if the morning.

    And at the end of the day, unless AT&T brings down their prices and their phones stop dropping calls, I will never consider an iphone. It would cost me the same for one iphone as I am paying for four phones on Sprint. No thank you.
  7. #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    I am so confused. iPhone OS 4.0's multitasking implementation provides all of the benefits of WebOS' preemptive multitasking without any of the memory management issues.

    How is this a bad thing? I almost get the feeling those touting WebOS' "true multitasking" don't even know why they consider that method superior other than it being...well, you know, "true."
    I've said this multiple times already, I think even once or twice in this thread. The biggest drawback is that it's very limiting.

    Anyone who ever used a Treo with PocketTunes has used this exact model of multitasking. It's an improvement over absolutely no multitasking, but in the end, people were tired of the limits and clamoring for real multitasking. I personally switched to Windows Mobile for a short while because of it. But especially now that I've used webOS, there's absolutely no way I could go back to that limited model.

    Remember, you can only multitask via the 7 services that Apple has provided. You can only multitask in applications that were updated for this new setup. I'm sure a lot of them will be, but is every single developer going to go back and rewrite their 3 year old app or game in order to add the save-state support? No. And there's still no real intuitive way on the iPhone to switch between all of those applications. You get the most recent 4.

    Like I said, it's a nice improvement, but limits the user.
  8. tedknaz's Avatar
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    #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    Yeah, it's not a great implementation. And 7 apps...it's weird they're not letting it have 8 and be fully symmetrical/filled there on the tray.

    Still, look at how fluid that UI is in every common action. I would kill to have that on the Pre.
  9. solarus's Avatar
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    #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Why?
    'Cus I just do it frees up resources. I don't mind a few processes running in the background but if I want to close Photoshop on my computer I close it I don't keep it running 24-7 or until my computer has decided, all by itself, that I don't need it open anymore. Its simply an issue of the user controlling the device, not the device controlling the user.

    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    the main point here is that if apple did it right with this multitasking, then you dont care about processes running in the background because you will not notice it or it wont bog your system down that you feel you have to.

    this is not microsoft windows... no ctrl alt delete and end task. this is not palm with 'too many cards open'
    My point isn't really about processes running in the background hogging resources and causing 'too many cards open' type errors. Its more to do with simply having a choice of having an app open in the background or not. The advantage of having little or no sluggishness in iP-OS 4 comes from Apple limiting the M-T processes to only the 7 processes Apple deem "necessary" (as well as well written code I'm sure). I'm not saying Palm don't have their issues with how they implemented M-T, but with some better memory management and more memory (which I'm sure the next iPhone will have) WebOS can provide all the advantages of the iP-OS yet allow any application to run in the background.
    Last edited by solarus; 04/08/2010 at 04:43 PM.
  10. #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    I've said this multiple times already, I think even once or twice in this thread. The biggest drawback is that it's very limiting.

    Anyone who ever used a Treo with PocketTunes has used this exact model of multitasking. It's an improvement over absolutely no multitasking, but in the end, people were tired of the limits and clamoring for real multitasking. I personally switched to Windows Mobile for a short while because of it. But especially now that I've used webOS, there's absolutely no way I could go back to that limited model.

    Remember, you can only multitask via the 7 services that Apple has provided. You can only multitask in applications that were updated for this new setup. I'm sure a lot of them will be, but is every single developer going to go back and rewrite their 3 year old app or game in order to add the save-state support? No. And there's still no real intuitive way on the iPhone to switch between all of those applications. You get the most recent 4.

    Like I said, it's a nice improvement, but limits the user.
    Okay, taking it from the top...

    What practical advantages does WebOS' preemptive multitasking offer you? Do VOIP apps accept incoming calls any better? Does streaming radio stream better music? When you pause a game and pull another application to the foreground, is the game paused any harder?

    I would imagine that developers with applications that make sense to run in the background will recode their existing offerings to do so. Those that don't, won't. I don't need my comic reader or recipe catalog or weather application to run in the background, after all.

    The mobile space is just all about compromises. Palm's compromise is to allow the operating system to run out of memory and I think that's far worse than the method Apple's chosen to implement.
  11. tedknaz's Avatar
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    #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Okay, taking it from the top...

    What practical advantages does WebOS' preemptive multitasking offer you? Do VOIP apps accept incoming calls any better? Does streaming radio stream better music? When you pause a game and pull another application to the foreground, is the game paused any harder?
    LOL Yes! DUDE IT IS SOOOO PAUSED HARDER.
    You can tell because I'm YELLING.
  12. #313  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    That's why all my iPhone friends pick restaurants and coffee shops based on where they know they can sit next to a power outlet.

    And that's why they carry their charger everywhere, and why most of them have a case with a second battery...

    The iPhone on 3G network has MUCH worse battery life than my Pre+
    THANK YOU! that just happened with me my bro and my cuz. we went to eat i had like 20% left on my pre my bro had about 40% on his iphone and my cuz had full battery on his htc touch pro 2 so he doesnt matter, but the point is we were all on youtube looking up funny clips and guess who had to run to the car to get his charger even tho he was charging it while we was on the way there..... HINT: not me or my cousin
  13. #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by tedknaz View Post
    Yeah, it's not a great implementation. And 7 apps...it's weird they're not letting it have 8 and be fully symmetrical/filled there on the tray.
    ugh. i gotta stop reading this site.
  14. #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Okay, taking it from the top...

    What practical advantages does WebOS' preemptive multitasking offer you? Do VOIP apps accept incoming calls any better? Does streaming radio stream better music? When you pause a game and pull another application to the foreground, is the game paused any harder?

    I would imagine that developers with applications that make sense to run in the background will recode their existing offerings to do so. Those that don't, won't. I don't need my comic reader or recipe catalog or weather application to run in the background, after all.
    So when reading a comic, you get interrupted by an email, maybe, and you need to respond to that before you can return to your comic. You don't want to be able to go back to the last page you were on, instead of flipping back to your page? Because my understanding of it is that that's one of the 7 services we're talking about here that the app needs to have new functionality added to to support- the "fast app switching", which Engadget explains as being a sleep/restore for the app. The same goes for a game. If you want to return to your game quickly without having to wait another 30-45 seconds for it to load (of course this depends on the complexity of the game), the game has to be updated to include fast app switching support

    There's a viable reason that one could want practically any application to be in the background. If the reasons don't apply to you, that's fine. But I'd bet for most users, they're going to hit a scenario at some point where they'll hit the wall. For iPhone 4.0, that means some applications can't multitask at all, unless specifically updated for the feature. For webOS, that means getting a Too Many Cards error once in a while.

    I'd prefer the latter.
  15. #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    So when reading a comic, you get interrupted by an email, maybe, and you need to respond to that before you can return to your comic. You don't want to be able to go back to the last page you were on, instead of flipping back to your page? Because my understanding of it is that that's one of the 7 services we're talking about here that the app needs to have new functionality added to to support- the "fast app switching", which Engadget explains as being a sleep/restore for the app.
    That's not exactly the case. Save states aren't new to 4.0 and all the comic and ebook readers I've tried on the iPhone already do just that.
  16. solarus's Avatar
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    #317  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    ugh. i gotta stop reading this site.
    You feel like this PoundSand
  17. #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    That's not exactly the case. Save states aren't new to 4.0 and all the comic and ebook readers I've tried on the iPhone already do just that.
    Okay, I wasn't entirely sure how it applied to general apps, but I guess my assumption that it'd be the same for a comic reader was incorrect. It's been a while since I've used an iPhone, and in my testing I mostly tried out a few games, and none of those saved the state you were in when you re-opened them.

    On second thought, I'm thinking that one applies more to gaming than general applications. But say for example I'm playing HAWX on the Pre (favorite game lately), and I switch to do something else. Since it's still open on the Pre, I can immediately go back to where I was in my game when I hit resume.

    On the iPhone with 4.0, obviously the application won't run entirely in the background. Only part of the app remains alive for those 7 background services. With a game, I'd imagine it's intended to use this fast app switching, to put the app to sleep and then return to the exact part of the game you were at. First of all, we don't actually have any details on how that'll work yet, so this is just speculation. I assume the purpose though would be to limit having to load the game's title menu, which will take about 25-30 seconds, and then go to the level you were on, and then load that for another 45 or so seconds, and then you're back to your game. Instead I assume that the game will skip the title menu loading and then switch back to the level you were on. But of course, even with iPhone 4.0, the game was completely closed when you left it, the goal is to just return you to where you were faster. There's still going to need to be some loading time for a complex game.

    Again, this is entirely speculation, but I'm guessing that the fast app switching is most likely for gaming purposes, when a save state can't be made immediately upon closing the app but instead will require some longer processing, so that would continue in the background to do the saving, and then would just reload from that state when you open the game again.

    It's possible I'm incorrect entirely, but until we get some actual details on what they're doing when they say "fast app switching" it's all just guessing.

    Edit: Engadget now has a post saying that they aren't really able to test the multitasking features on 4.0 because there's no apps that support it:

    The multitasking system works as described, but without any apps that support it it's hard to test -- we'll see if we can cajole a copy of Pandora or TomTom to play with.
    iPhone OS 4 hands-on (updated with video!) -- Engadget
    Last edited by jhoff80; 04/08/2010 at 05:09 PM.
  18. tedknaz's Avatar
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    #319  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    ugh. i gotta stop reading this site.
    I know I know. Sorry.
  19. miata's Avatar
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    #320  
    It seems like Apple may have just jumped slightly ahead of Palm in the "multi-tasking area" -- at least in my opinion. webOS is still ahead of iPhone in terms of the cards and supporting IM in the background, but I don't consider the current state of webOS multi-tasking solid in terms of lag, stuttering or the "too many cards errors." When Palm addresses those problems webOS would be back in the lead.

    You have to love competition
    Pilot Pro -> Pilot Vx -> Kyocera 7135 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680 -> Pre -> Pixi Plus -> Pre2 + TouchPad -> BB 9930 -> Pre3+ Playbook
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