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  1. #21  
    if apple comes out with a tablet running osX 10.5 it would take a dump in the hp slate it looks horrible to me.
  2. #22  
    The HP slate might be capable of doing more things than the iPad is capable of, but for me it's a terrible user experience, and user experience trumps all. Apple has always been able to provide superb UX/UI.. so for me, it was a no-brainer.

    Does the HP Slate come with Norton Antivirus? Just curious ..
    Last edited by barkerja; 04/09/2010 at 12:58 AM.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Does the HP Slate come with Norton Antivirus? Just curious ..
    Oh man, you got us all there.

    I haven't used preventative antivirus software in probably ten years now, all of which I've used some form of Windows. Every so often, (maybe every 6 months or so) I do an online scan via Housecall or similar. Not once has it ever come up with a positive.

    The fact of the matter is, if you're taking reasonable precautions on your own, viruses aren't the big issue that everyone (namely Apple / Mac users and security companies) would have you believe. Don't use IE, don't download things from non-reputable sources, and in general just be careful, and you're fine.

    And honestly, Macs can be hacked just as easily. Just two weeks ago, at Pwn2Own, a hacker got terminal control of a fully up-to-date Mac via the Safari browser. This would be the third year in a row that he's done similar, for the record. And despite knowing about the vulnerability, Apple hasn't fixed it yet.

    The iPhone browser and IE8 were also exploited, for the record. The fact of the matter is, someone who is determined enough can get into pretty much any system. Macs aren't magically more secure, unless you're talking about security through obscurity- they don't have a high market share, so hackers just tend to not pay as much attention.

    But for the general populace, viruses aren't an issue unless they're just plain ignorant of certain risks.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    And honestly, Macs can be hacked just as easily. Just two weeks ago, at Pwn2Own, a hacker got terminal control of a fully up-to-date Mac via the Safari browser. This would be the third year in a row that he's done similar, for the record. And despite knowing about the vulnerability, Apple hasn't fixed it yet.
    But the iPad isn't a Mac, its basically an oversized iPod touch with an optional 3G modem. How easy is an iPod Touch to hack, how many viruses have there been for it.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Just look at the Anandtech review of the iPad: the Atom blows away the iPad in page rendering and Javascript benchmarks. It's an apples and oranges comparison. It'd be like saying a Kindle gets 10 days of battery, how come the iPad can't keep up?
    I just did. Some interesting quotes from that same article:

    "At the heart, er surface, the iPad is a tablet computer. This has been tried before and usually met with very little success. The problems were three fold: hardware, form factor and UI.

    What sets the iPad apart from those that came before it is that it finally has the right combination of all three. The hardware is powerful enough to run the OS quickly while maintaining good battery life, the form factor is thin and light enough to be portable and the UI is tailored to the device"

    Fact is all previous Windows Tablets have failed in the market.

    Also:

    "Clearly, the IPS panel in the iPad offers drastically improved contrast and black levels - it's very obvious even in normal use that it blows away the iPhone."

    And finally to your original point about performance:

    "The comparison gets more complex when you look at things like application launch times. It takes the iPad 3 seconds to launch Pages, and less than 1 to launch Safari. If the application was previously in memory, the Eee PC can fire up Chrome in less than a second, otherwise it takes longer depending on what Windows decides to do with the disk at that moment. And launching Word from scratch takes much longer than 3 seconds.

    Apple is relying on solid state storage and a very lightweight OS while netbooks usually have terribly slow hard drives and a bulky software stack. Itís a ginormous tradeoff. Web pages load quicker on a netbook, but are easier to read/navigate on the iPad."
  6. xtn
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    #26  
    My tablet kicks the iPad's ****. But it cost four times as much and is heavier and more akward to carry around. It all just depends on what qualities are important to the the person shopping.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    But the iPad isn't a Mac, its basically an oversized iPod touch with an optional 3G modem. How easy is an iPod Touch to hack, how many viruses have there been for it.
    Like I said, at the same conference, the iPhone was hacked just as easily. M point was more that a Windows PC can be just as safe for a reasonably intelligent user who doesn't just click on every link they see though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I just did. Some interesting quotes from that same article:

    "At the heart, er surface, the iPad is a tablet computer. This has been tried before and usually met with very little success. The problems were three fold: hardware, form factor and UI.

    What sets the iPad apart from those that came before it is that it finally has the right combination of all three. The hardware is powerful enough to run the OS quickly while maintaining good battery life, the form factor is thin and light enough to be portable and the UI is tailored to the device"

    Fact is all previous Windows Tablets have failed in the market.
    I'm not saying Windows tablets have been a huge success by any means. Of course they've been a niche product. And I'm sure the iPad is a great device for many, but it's not for me. And in general, I just don't think they've shown off any real use for the device yet. I've got 3 friends who bought one, and two of them are kind of bored with it already and aren't sure why they even needed it. I suspect that reaction is more common than Apple would want people to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Also:

    "Clearly, the IPS panel in the iPad offers drastically improved contrast and black levels - it's very obvious even in normal use that it blows away the iPhone."
    An IPS panel isn't some new invention by Apple or anything. There's plenty of other devices that use it. And while it is a very nice screen, the glossiness can be an issue in bright conditions. I personally happen to think my tc1100's display compares very favorably to it. The iPad's is slightly better, but I wouldn't say it's orders of magnitude better.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    And finally to your original point about performance:

    "The comparison gets more complex when you look at things like application launch times. It takes the iPad 3 seconds to launch Pages, and less than 1 to launch Safari. If the application was previously in memory, the Eee PC can fire up Chrome in less than a second, otherwise it takes longer depending on what Windows decides to do with the disk at that moment. And launching Word from scratch takes much longer than 3 seconds.

    Apple is relying on solid state storage and a very lightweight OS while netbooks usually have terribly slow hard drives and a bulky software stack. Itís a ginormous tradeoff. Web pages load quicker on a netbook, but are easier to read/navigate on the iPad."
    Is the part about slow hard drives really all that relevant when we're talking about a device that has already been said to have an SSD as well? I mean, my Dell Mini 9 with an SSD in it loads Word 2010 in a second, so I don't really find that part very relevant in a comparison of the HP Slate and the iPad.

    I mean, the iPad, that's definitely a good device for some people. I'm personally a fan of using the right tool for the job, and I can't see a single use that I have that the iPad would do better. Maybe for you, that's different, and that's fine, get an iPad.

    But despite Steve Jobs' opinions, the pen is not a failure, it's just an additional tool. If the iPad had a real pen (not those capacitive stylus things, but an EMR pen), I'd probably have been lined up for one too. But there are just some needs I have that can't be done via touch alone, and I'm far too dependent on Microsoft OneNote (the best program Microsoft has ever made, that nobody knows about).
  8. #28  
    jhoff80,

    I won't argue that Mac's/iPod/iPhones/iPads/etc. are not vulnerable to certain security issues but I will argue that they ARE less vulnerable.

    Are applications on the HP Slate sandboxed or are they typical Windows applications like you would find on a desktop? The problem is, your typical user isn't going to expect to be too concerned with security on a device like this, hell, most even aren't concerned on their own desktops.

    Bottom line is, your average Windows user has to be concerned about viruses and spyware whereas your average Mac user does not.
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    #29  
    HP Slate? Now that's a keyboard less computer!


    I own an iPad and this thing can't run my desktop apps, torrent files or store my entire music library. But that's why I bought it. I already have a few computers so what I wanted was a simple device for running a few apps, lounging around and accessing my tech PDFs. So despite the ipads limitations, it does far more than i need it to.

    I find the slate to be interesting but as i'm learning with the iPad, tablets are far too limiting in form factor so a full blown OS is overkill. Im not buying the ipad spreadsheet, word or presentation aps because if i want to do that stuff ill use a computer. But i did buy a few games and a ton of free media consumption apps and I'm surprised at all the cool stuff out already.

    Personally, I see the courier to be the perfect travel device. It's small, well thought out and doesn't draw attention. I buy tech gear to use in my life, not to give tech demos to strangers.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I had an HP Tablet PC running Windows XP Tablet edition. I hated having to keep getting the pen out and ultimately ended up just using it as a latptop.
    I have one of the successors to your laptop -- a dual-input Tablet running Vista. It gets amazingly better when you can use your fingers as well / instead of the pen.

    Anyone who ever said Windows is not "touch friendly" quite simply hasn't used a touch interface since Vista. (Window's Text-input design is THE BEST i've ever seen. And I still miss graffiti.)
    Doug Meerschaert
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  11. #31  
    No one knows what the HP Slate will do, if they somehow create a beautiful useful, multitouch, fast UI over Windows 7, it could be okay. The problem starts when people want more touch friendly apps to work with like the iPad.

    I seriously think they should just scratch putting Win 7 on it entirely and just give it Windows Phone 7's OS. Make a more tablet friendly version and sell that so users can get comfortable with the OS in preparation for phone sales.
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by likeobama View Post
    No one knows what the HP Slate will do, if they somehow create a beautiful useful, multitouch, fast UI over Windows 7, it could be okay. The problem starts when people want more touch friendly apps to work with like the iPad.

    I seriously think they should just scratch putting Win 7 on it entirely and just give it Windows Phone 7's OS. Make a more tablet friendly version and sell that so users can get comfortable with the OS in preparation for phone sales.
    My guess is that neither HP or MS know what the HP Slate will do. They just know that they need to do something. It will be interesting to see how this works out. There will need to be tight hardware and software integration, but how does MS manage that will all the OEMs?
    Last edited by miata; 04/10/2010 at 05:01 PM.
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  13. #33  
    Reasons I will never own a tablet based on a windows desktop os:

    1. Antivirus and spyware. Though some here are in denial, there is no way you can use a windows device safely without enterprise level protection.

    2. The OS was not written with touch input in mind. Some things will be very awkward to do. While HP seems to have put a nice skin on windows 7 for the slate, how are other apps handled? did HP reskin ms office? Can you imagine the nightmare of using outlook with touch only?

    3. how do we load apps on windows tablets? not all apps can be downloaded over the Internet. Guess I need to hook up a USB DVD drive.

    4. if anything like a net book, windows tablets will probably run most windows apps poorly.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Reasons I will never own a tablet based on a windows desktop os:

    1. Antivirus and spyware. Though some here are in denial, there is no way you can use a windows device safely without enterprise level protection.

    2. The OS was not written with touch input in mind. Some things will be very awkward to do. While HP seems to have put a nice skin on windows 7 for the slate, how are other apps handled? did HP reskin ms office? Can you imagine the nightmare of using outlook with touch only?

    3. how do we load apps on windows tablets? not all apps can be downloaded over the Internet. Guess I need to hook up a USB DVD drive.

    4. if anything like a net book, windows tablets will probably run most windows apps poorly.
    I'm going to skip #1, because I've already addressed that. If you don't believe you're intelligent enough to avoid spyware and viruses, well then I'll just trust you on that.

    2. Sure, the entire OS wasn't written with touch in mind. I personally find Outlook to be a nightmare no matter what the input method, so I'm not sure that's the best example. But yeah, sure, there's a lot of Windows applications that aren't optimized for pen / touch input. Excel for example, doesn't work nearly as well with a pen / touch as you'd hope for, if you wanted to use it on a tablet. The difference is with the HP Slate, you have the option of connecting a mouse and keyboard at any time. Besides that, the pen offers a ton of functionality that's just not possible on the iPad, unless you'd rather use Evernote or something of the sort by fingerpainting.

    3. Seriously? Besides the OS and maybe MS Office (which actually can be downloaded directly from Microsoft and then you can use your legitimate license key), what software really gets sold in physical disc format anymore? I mean, the Best Buy I worked at 8 years ago used to have an entire section of PC software, probably 4 or 5 aisles worth. Now, there's a single shelf, not even a full aisle. Though, while on the subject, how does one connect a USB drive full of data or pictures or whatever to the iPad again? At least you have the option for that USB DVD drive with the HP Slate.

    4. Do you even have a netbook running Windows or Windows applications? To say that they run "most applications poorly" is just pure exaggeration. Yes, they're not speed demons by any means, but they run most applications great. And if Engadget is correct about there being a Crystal HD accelerator in it, that'll help with most of the Atom's (entirely media-related) shortcomings.

    There is one thing I agree completely with you on, I think. Expecting to use a slate device for everything that you'd do on your main computer isn't going to work well. There's some things that you can do great on a slate style device, and there's other things that just won't work as well. I wouldn't want to write memoirs on either an iPad or a Windows tablet, for example.

    But for most of the usages that one might want to use a tablet: casual web-browsing, note-taking, ebook reading, media, etc., I believe the HP Slate (if it has a pen option, as believed) will do it better. It's more powerful, has more software options (as sizeable as the Apple App Store is), and just doesn't lock you down nearly as much as Apple does. The pen gives you the option of added functionality that's just not possible on the iPad.

    Now, if battery life and simplicity are what you most care about, then by all means, maybe the iPad is for you. I myself would recommend an iPad for my parents before I'd recommend them a Windows tablet, especially knowing their needs. But there are definite advantages to each style.

    I still think the biggest problem with the iPad is that there's no killer app. Like I said, my friends who have them barely even have any real uses for them, and are regretting their purchases. In the early days for the iPhone, the killer app was iTunes and a phone in one device you could carry with you. While Apple has done a better job of marketing the iPad than Microsoft has with their tablets (which they literally do not market at all, unfortunately), I'm not certain that they've demonstrated any reason why the general consumer actually has any real need for the iPad.
    Last edited by jhoff80; 04/10/2010 at 10:43 PM.
  15. #35  
    It does look cool, I don't see myself buying an ipad for some reason
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    You might want to at least give the handwriting a try in Vista and 7. I hear the recognition is much improved in Vista (though I never used XP Tablet edition to compare to) and it's even better in 7.

    I've got terrible handwriting as well, and I get pretty much 99% accuracy.
    I've recently picked up a Lenovo ThinkPad X200 Tablet. Mine has the outdoor-viewable display, so it doesn't have touch.

    But the pen, wow, love it. My handwriting, especially cursive, is notoriously horrible to the point it is sometimes mistaken for a foreign language. But the recognition on Windows 7 had little trouble with it. Its a little off at first as it begins to learn, but if you throw it through a single learning session its much better and just continues to improve.
    But because it's a Wacom tablet, you can hover your cursor over something, use the pen buttons for special tasks, and it has pressure sensitivity (which improves the writing recognition and makes note taking look real).

    But if I need the keyboard or a mouse, I just flip the screen around and its good to go. I love that thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall
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  17. #37  
    Yeah, I've got a Dell Latitude XT (though I wouldn't recommend the specific model) which I use for my main PC duties, since it's a convertible, and then a HP / Compaq TC1100 slate that I picked up off of eBay for the times when I want something that weighs less and is more compact.

    But really, I think that a lot of people who dismiss tablets haven't tried them. The easiest usage model to demonstrate would a student, for which, a good tablet with an active digitizer and OneNote can't be beat. But as I said in my long post just now, Microsoft doesn't market either of these things at all.

    It's a shame, because it's impressive stuff.

    And I just saw a great pair of videos from Microsoft Research about the combination of a pen and touch interface. Their Research group really does some amazing stuff, even if you don't like any of the products Microsoft makes.

    If you're any bit curious about the interaction of the two, I strongly recommend these very interesting videos:


  18. #38  
    I watched those videos, pretty cool
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Yeah, I've got a Dell Latitude XT (though I wouldn't recommend the specific model) which I use for my main PC duties, since it's a convertible, and then a HP / Compaq TC1100 slate that I picked up off of eBay for the times when I want something that weighs less and is more compact.

    But really, I think that a lot of people who dismiss tablets haven't tried them. The easiest usage model to demonstrate would a student, for which, a good tablet with an active digitizer and OneNote can't be beat. But as I said in my long post just now, Microsoft doesn't market either of these things at all.

    It's a shame, because it's impressive stuff.

    And I just saw a great pair of videos from Microsoft Research about the combination of a pen and touch interface. Their Research group really does some amazing stuff, even if you don't like any of the products Microsoft makes.

    If you're any bit curious about the interaction of the two, I strongly recommend these very interesting videos:


    The videos were really futuristic. Once ideas like that get implemented I most definitely will go ahead and get a tablet pc. The fact the Microsoft and their partners don't market these things is a real shame. Back when I was a freshman, I remember seeing the ad for Dell's tablet Pc. I think the ad involved some welder cutting up a laptop and replacing it with a tablet. I thought it was the end-all to laptops. Well I was wrong and after that, tablets kind of became an ancient item. Hopefully that changes soon.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by likeobama View Post
    The videos were really futuristic. Once ideas like that get implemented I most definitely will go ahead and get a tablet pc.
    For the record, some of the stuff is possible now. The example in the first video about directions and the combination of pen and voice is completely possible in OneNote. Obviously he extends his ideas way past where they are now with the reference to sending it to your car and having that integrate with your GPS, but I can record an audio file in OneNote, and take notes during it, and then either read the notes, or play them back where it'll highlight what I've written in sync to when I wrote it in relation to the audio file.

    And the second video, was a demo on Surface, so obviously the software exists at least on that, it's just a matter of whether we'll see it on the tablet PCs that do support simultaneous pen and multitouch (HP 2740p, HP tm2, Lenovo X201T using Wacom or the Dell XT2 and HP tx2 that use N-trig, to name a few) anytime soon. I'm hoping that we do.

    Honestly, there's a ton of interesting stuff that a combination of a pen and touch will let you do that just don't work as well with pure touch. Another example is the "Project Gustav" MS demo, which is an art program that simulates oil-based paints and pastels in very high quality. Now, I've seen other applications that do similar (Artrage is one that I currently use on my own tablet, for example), but you can intuitively smudge paint and manipulate the canvas using your fingers, and use the pen to paint.

    There's similar apps for iPad, (Sketchbook Pro, for example, though I don't like the PC version of that as much as Artrage- I find Sketchbook looks a little more digital, the tools are more difficult to use, and I couldn't justify paying for an $100 app when I'm not an artist and there's a free version of Artrage), but you don't get any pressure sensitivity (which is key in this sort of thing, honestly), and you have to use your fingers as the brushes. Yes, there's a capacitive stylus for the iPad/iPhone, but then you get the vectoring issues. Basically if any part of your hand touches the screen, it confuses the software into thinking it's another touch, an issue that you don't get with the active digitizer.
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