View Poll Results: Did ToolkiT make the right choise?

Voters
44. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, if he thinks so.. After all he is the mod

    24 54.55%
  • No, Treo 270 is the way to go!

    6 13.64%
  • not sure/No opinion

    0 0%
  • He should have saved his money like his wife said

    14 31.82%
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  1. #21  
    Don't forget the Zaurus. Mine works wonderfully, and the backup app is nice to have. You can backup the entire apps and docs into a CF or SD card.
  2. #22  
    The Zaurus I owned (actually my father owns now) is a bit older then the one you mention. If I remember correctly ZX-5000 (?).
    It pre-dates Windows CE and maybe even PalmOS (I won't bet my life on that). This device doesn't even know what CF means, if I remember correctly it could only use memory cards with a maximum of 2MB.
  3.    #23  
    Originally posted by dkessler


    Ok, I'm not a PocketPC "advocate", but I hate to hear things repeated over and over that just aren't true. As a developer, I'm pretty familiar with the internal operation of both PocketPC and PalmOS and I can assure you that there is nothing in the PocketPC 2002 OS that makes it fundamentally less efficient than PalmOS. If apps seem no faster on PocketPC than on PalmOS, its because PocketPC app developers tend not to work as hard at optimization as their PalmOS counterparts. Optimization takes a lot of time/money, so when apps hit a point developers consider "acceptable" they tend to stop tweaking. It has virtually nothing to do with the OS.
    I did not realize that, but it makes sense... to me a machine with triple the specs of another but still delivers the same performance must be because of the OS... But you make a strong case and I do believe you...
    Nevertheless the better spec does not pay out on PPC machines yet... a pity really


    Originally posted by dkessler

    Faster CPU is only a tiny part of the increased battery load. The big hitters are high res backlit/sidelit color LCDs, significantly more RAM, integrated audio hardware, IR that you can't (as far as I know) disable, and very small batteries (additional hardware in the same size package takes away battery space). Put a PocketPC size battery in a Visor Prism (the Prism's battery is huge) and you'd be lucky to get 2 hours of run time.
    Interesting.. you wonder why they wouldn't go for bigger batteries then.. spacelimits? machine allready too big?

    Originally posted by dkessler

    I'm not trying to convince anyone that PocketPC is better (or worse) than PalmOS. But a choice between the two should be made based on facts and not folklore
    You are right, thank you for correcting me, I was giving my opinion from my first hand experience and had not realized these points...
    But fact remain for me the PPC's are still too big, not a nice OS (Personal (biased) prefference) and have too short a battery life...
    Allthough I have to say the new Toshiba PPC unit starts to get close to what I want..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  4. #24  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    Nevertheless the better spec does not pay out on PPC machines yet... a pity really
    Actually it does. There are a number of apps for PPC that could not even be attempted on PalmOS. Unfortunately, most head-to-head comparisons look at either the built-in PIM apps (and Microsoft is not exactly famous for writing heavily optimized app software) or PalmOS apps that have a PPC "port". By its very nature, ported software loses a lot of efficiency.

    Interesting.. you wonder why they wouldn't go for bigger batteries then.. spacelimits? machine allready too big?
    Exactly. Customers want small devices. If you look at the Toshiba e570 you have a PPC 2002 device with 320x240 16-bit color, integrated audio, Type II CF, and SD card slot all crammed into a package physically smaller than the Visor Prism. That just doesn't leave much space for a battery.

    But fact remain for me the PPC's are still too big, not a nice OS (Personal (biased) prefference) and have too short a battery life...
    And those are perfectly valid points The fact is that there are plenty of good reasons to justify chosing PalmOS over PPC (and vice versa). But it can be tough for non-developers to seperate facts from urban legends. Luckily there's a great forum like VisorCentral where intelligent, rational discussion is welcomed instead of being "shouted down" by zealots
    <ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
  5. #25  
    Interesting points Dave, thanks.

    Originally posted by dkessler


    Actually it does. There are a number of apps for PPC that could not even be attempted on PalmOS....
    Could you give some examples? Thanks again.
    Mike
    I'd rather be upside down in my kayak than rightside up at my desk.
  6. #26  
    Originally posted by Jupe
    Could you give some examples? Thanks again.
    IA Album - yes, there are image viewers for PalmOS but none come close to offering this kind of feature set.

    Resco File Explorer - If we tried to pack all these features into FAFileMover it would become so big and slow that it would be unusable.

    Quake - You're not going to see 60 frames/sec, but considering the code was designed for desktop machines with fast FPUs (and like the Dragonball, StrongARM has none), it's surprisingly good.

    Now, are those "killer apps"? Probably not. And to be fair, a lot of the more basic productivity apps on PalmOS offer better usability, and in some cases better feature sets than their PPC counterparts. Datebook, for examble, is arguably superior to the best third-party calendars for PPC and WordSmith is significantly better than PocketWord (and even offers better MS Word compatibility).

    But the fact is that the best apps on PalmOS are pushing the hardware and OS to its absolute limits. While on PPC, most existing apps have a lot of room for growth. As the PPC market continues to grow and become a more lucrative target for developers, we'll start to see more and more apps that really tap the potential of PPC platform.
    <ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
  7. Q
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    #27  
    Originally posted by dkessler
    But the fact is that the best apps on PalmOS are pushing the hardware and OS to its absolute limits. While on PPC, most existing apps have a lot of room for growth.
    Pushing the current hardware and OS, OK. When OS 5 finally arrives, we should have more of an apples-to-apples comparison.
  8.    #28  
    Originally posted by dkessler


    IA Album - yes, there are image viewers for PalmOS but none come close to offering this kind of feature set.
    In what way is that program better than say 'pictureGear Pocket' which is delivered with the NR70V?

    Originally posted by dkessler
    Resco File Explorer - If we tried to pack all these features into FAFileMover it would become so big and slow that it would be unusable.
    ditto with the Sony ms gate software..

    Originally posted by dkessler
    Quake - You're not going to see 60 frames/sec, but considering the code was designed for desktop machines with fast FPUs (and like the Dragonball, StrongARM has none), it's surprisingly good.
    Quake on a palm is cool, but only usefull to show off...
    If I want to play there kind of games I'll play it on a PC or PS2...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  9. #29  
    Hey! I'm full dutch. Ok, so my great grandparents came over from the Netherlands back in the 1870's as kids...but they didn't marry outside the little Dutch community they lived in!

    Maybe we're related!

    Hey cousin can you spot me a $20? ;->
  10. #30  
    You'r not dutch, not even one proof of authentication given.
    Anybody can claim to be dutch, but very few can prove it ;-)
    Here is a question for you: Which word is mostly used in connection with a hammer and thumb that starts with a "G" and ends with a "E" ? ;-)

    Bijna tijd om naar huis tegaan, alweer een rot weekend zonder Nederland in der Wereldcup. Die Duitsers hier vragen mij elke dag hoe het nederlandse team gespeeld heeft.

    Somehow I think I am getting on thin ice, I just hope the moderator doesn't get annoyed too much ;-)

    Btw: I am inviting all the dutch nationals in this thread for some beers over the weekend. bring your own booze, I will bring myself.
  11. #31  
    Originally posted by Q
    Pushing the current hardware and OS, OK. When OS 5 finally arrives, we should have more of an apples-to-apples comparison.
    PalmOS 5.0 will do little to ease the constraints on PalmOS developers. The hardware has great potential but the OS will remain crippling to developers. The APIs remain largely unchanged and PalmOS 5.0 applications are still compiled for the Dragonball processor and then executed via a Dragonball emulator running on the new ARM based devices. There will be some speed improvements as a result of internal OS functions being implemented in native ARM code, but nothing that developers can directly take advantage of. We'll have to wait six to twelve months for a subsequent OS release before native ARM applications are possible.
    <ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
  12. #32  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    In what way is that program better than say 'pictureGear Pocket' which is delivered with the NR70V?
    IA Album can ...

    View JPEG (including CMYK JPEG), BMP, 2BP, GIF (still and animated) files. Scroll through portions of (or entire) images in various magnifications and orientations. zoom in, zoom out, rotate/flip, Auto rotate, display actual size. Pre-defined values for zooming can be chosen for exact magnifying percentage. The Zoom Slider will perform real-time Zoom In and Zoom Out. Images can be cropped, re-sized, or saved in different datatypes, resolutions, and formats. Enter text notes, audio annotation (voice/music), or ink to the images. Present images as a multimedia slide show, and add text/audio/ink annotations and attractive transition effects. PowerPoint slides can be converted and downloaded for playback. Adjust slide show attributes: delay time between slides, slide size, orientation, background color, text color/position/size/font style, and more. Share files via e-mail. Use IA Album as a digital slide projector. You can now perform presentations or slide shows on a VGA monitor, projector, or TV set. Fully compatible with Colorgraphic Voyager VGA card, and MARGI Presenter-to-Go VGA card.

    PictureGear Pocket may have some of those features, but as a whole its feature set is considerably smaller. On top of that, PictureGear Pocket is not a PalmOS application. It's a Clie app that uses special APIs and OS extensions that are not part of the standard PalmOS and won't work on any other PalmOS device. That goes back to my original point that the PalmOS itself does impose significant limits on what an application can do within the boundaries of the OS.

    ditto with the Sony ms gate software..
    Last time I checked, MSGate had even less features (and was significantly slower) than our FAFileMover ... and FAFileMover isn't exactly known for being "feature rich" (but it is fast!).

    Quake on a palm is cool, but only usefull to show off...
    If I want to play there kind of games I'll play it on a PC or PS2...
    Understood. But you simply asked for examples of apps that aren't possible on Palm hardware/OS and I tried to provide a good cross-section. We must not lose sight of my original point which was that the PocketPC OS does not limit the potential of PocketPC hardware platform. In the hands of a tallented developer, the more powerful PPC hardware platform offers a proportionally greater potential for developing more sophisticated, feature-rich applications. Whether people want or need such applications is a totally different topic
    <ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
  13.    #33  
    Originally posted by dorelse
    Hey! I'm full dutch. Ok, so my great grandparents came over from the Netherlands back in the 1870's as kids...but they didn't marry outside the little Dutch community they lived in!
    Do you like salty licorice (or better know as 'zoute drop'? If not I doubt you have any dutch blood left in you

    Originally posted by dorelse
    Maybe we're related!
    Maybe, but I doubt it....

    Originally posted by dorelse
    Hey cousin can you spot me a $20? ;->
    sure, but please remember that 20 aussie 4 will only get you $10 worth... and sending it over there costs prolly more..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  14.    #34  
    Originally posted by ErnstB
    You'r not dutch, not even one proof of authentication given.
    Anybody can claim to be dutch, but very few can prove it ;-)
    Here is a question for you: Which word is mostly used in connection with a hammer and thumb that starts with a "G" and ends with a "E" ? ;-)
    eehh, it has 'ver' in the middle?

    Originally posted by ErnstB
    Bijna tijd om naar huis tegaan, alweer een rot weekend zonder Nederland in der Wereldcup. Die Duitsers hier vragen mij elke dag hoe het nederlandse team gespeeld heeft.
    I feel your pain...

    Originally posted by ErnstB
    Somehow I think I am getting on thin ice, I just hope the moderator doesn't get annoyed too much ;-)
    I hope the same

    Originally posted by ErnstB
    Btw: I am inviting all the dutch nationals in this thread for some beers over the weekend. bring your own booze, I will bring myself.
    Roger that... 1 crown lager comming up...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  15.    #35  
    Originally posted by dkessler


    IA Album can ...

    <snap>


    Last time I checked, MSGate had even less features (and was significantly slower) than our FAFileMover ... and FAFileMover isn't exactly known for being "feature rich" (but it is fast!).



    Understood. But you simply asked for examples of apps that aren't possible on Palm hardware/OS and I tried to provide a good cross-section. We must not lose sight of my original point which was that the PocketPC OS does not limit the potential of PocketPC hardware platform. In the hands of a tallented developer, the more powerful PPC hardware platform offers a proportionally greater potential for developing more sophisticated, feature-rich applications. Whether people want or need such applications is a totally different topic
    Point taken...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  16.    #36  
    Originally posted by dkessler


    PalmOS 5.0 will do little to ease the constraints on PalmOS developers. The hardware has great potential but the OS will remain crippling to developers. The APIs remain largely unchanged and PalmOS 5.0 applications are still compiled for the Dragonball processor and then executed via a Dragonball emulator running on the new ARM based devices. There will be some speed improvements as a result of internal OS functions being implemented in native ARM code, but nothing that developers can directly take advantage of. We'll have to wait six to twelve months for a subsequent OS release before native ARM applications are possible.
    mmm if we are emulating on the same hardware as PPC, cant we theoratically also emulate PPC so we can run PPC software?

    I think the emulating is just a temp. sollution to bridge the time till there are a lot of native ARM palm OS5 programs...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  17. #37  
    Toolkit, btw: we could be related if the name van Heuven or Dee says anything.

    My mothers side of the family is very well represented down under.
  18.    #38  
    Originally posted by ErnstB
    Toolkit, btw: we could be related if the name van Heuven or Dee says anything.

    My mothers side of the family is very well represented down under.
    In High school (in Holland) I had a teacher who was called 'Dee' maybe he was related to you since that is not a very common name..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  19. #39  
    If you visited high school in holland then you do not qualify ;-)
    This part of the family has been in Australia for over 50 years.

    Back to the drawing board !
  20. #40  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    [B]
    Do you like salty licorice (or better know as 'zoute drop'? If not I doubt you have any dutch blood left in you
    I LOVE Salted Licorice...Double Salted Licorice to be presisce...mmmmmmmmmm....and I am not even dutch (Hungarian actually)....mmm...time to go find my stash..
    Alex.
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