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  1. #41  
    is 1.4 enough to hedge against Android 2.1 and iPhone 2.0? Does Palm need to get to 2.0 by the one year anniversary in June? And what does webOS 2.0 need to do?
    I am not really that experienced with the other smartphones to provide a truly educated response, but from all I've read and all the research I did before choosing the Pre (and even your own admission from the original questions), Palm has been more innovative. And again, in my limited experience with Android and iPhone OS, I just don't see Palm needing to hit 2.0 so soon, nor can really consider what 2.0 will bring right now.

    In the 1.x releases that Pam has been pushing out (heck, even the small 1.30 to 1.35 update was very significant), Palm has consistently added new functionality along fixes on previous things. Considering that even on release as a 1.0 device, webOS' interface paradigm has such a fluid and overall efficient workflow, I'd say the webOS base is already there, surpassing the other mobile OS'es. The problem is that Palm needs to spend some time and money educating folks about the device. For instance, I went to a local Best Buy yesterday and bought a ZAGG invisishield for my Pre and I asked about them installing it for me. The guy showed me his Pre with invishield installed and he was saying how he wasn't a big fan of the phone. When I kept talking to him, he had no clue how to use it. He even thought removing the center button on the Verizon Pre is a mistake as then how would he be able to easily access card view? And this is the guy that people who don't know about these devices go to for help when deciding which to buy. Anyway, I had to teach him about using the whole gesture area for the swipe that lets you switch between apps without going to card view and how removing the button would actually make that motion easier and about flicking up to go to card view and a few other things and he saw the phone in a whole different light.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    I don't think the real keyboard will ever be obsolete. People will always prefee to feel the keyboard as well as see. Is that saying anyone couldn't get use to virtual keyboards? Not at all
    I agree 100% percent! If the phone doesn't have a physical keyboard, I don't want it!
  3.    #43  
    I hope the full keyboard will be marginalized one day, kind of like Star Trek. We'll talk to our mobiles (like the Nexus One is already doing), and maybe one day -- MIND CONTROL!

    We have to dream, we have to push technology.
    Editor-in-chief, iMore
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    Co-host, Iterate, Debug, ZEN & TECH, Ad hoc, MacBreak Weekly
    Cook, grappler, photon wrangler.

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  4.    #44  
    I keep forgetting that while the Palm Pre was shown off at CES 2009 in January, and Pre Plus is shown off 1 year later at CES 2010, it's *shipping* far sooner than Pre did -- January vs. June so the 1/2 life refresh is spot on.

    But then what device do we need to see from Palm in June? Pre 2 with webOS 2? Are Apple and Google setting the pace at one major OS upgrade per year, and is that reasonable?

    @cardfan -- Verizon marketing is key. Look at DROID vs. BlackBerry Storm2. They threw Storm2 under the bus to market the DROID. Will Palm Pre be marketed as heavily as DROID, or as little as Storm2? I'm *guessing* somewhere in between. Will that be enough to sell units for Palm?
    Editor-in-chief, iMore
    Executive producer, Mobile Nations
    Co-host, Iterate, Debug, ZEN & TECH, Ad hoc, MacBreak Weekly
    Cook, grappler, photon wrangler.

    http://www.imore.com
    http://www.mobilenations.com
    http://twitter.com/reneritchie
  5. #45  
    I can't see Verizon marketing the Pre very much. The current Palm/ Sprint commercials have already set the tone for marketing. No room for innovation and rebranding like with the Droid.

    They'll probably place them in their generic commercials and just list the price like they do with the Eris or 8530.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post

    @cardfan -- Verizon marketing is key. Look at DROID vs. BlackBerry Storm2. They threw Storm2 under the bus to market the DROID. Will Palm Pre be marketed as heavily as DROID, or as little as Storm2? I'm *guessing* somewhere in between. Will that be enough to sell units for Palm?
    I would guess V gives it a good push. A trial period so to say. But if they're not selling, then they'll be quick to pull back.

    I do wonder who they're targeting. The Pixi is supposedly for teenage girls but will be expensive for those not wanting data plans. The Pre is general consumer...the iphone crowd..which reflects Palm's new desire to step into gaming. Wifi hotspots are usually business oriented. Yet, its hardly a great device for business. Heck, my Pre can't even keep the correct time.

    I'm not that optimistic (at least where the Pre and Pixi are concerned). V offers more customers but Sprint isn't exactly small potatoes at approx 50mil, had all the buzz they wanted, and elevated the Pre to flagship. What bothers me is slower decreasing sales in the last quarter compared to previous and the last quarter included more carriers and a price cut. Bad marketing? That plays a role. But perhaps the Pre's form factor just isn't catching on with the masses. That's a hardware first market IMO.. Those excited about swiping and touchscreens might not see the Pre's physical kb as something desirable.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post
    But then what device do we need to see from Palm in June? Pre 2 with webOS 2? Are Apple and Google setting the pace at one major OS upgrade per year, and is that reasonable?
    Given that webOS is easily scalable on screen size, I don't think the software as a whole will change as much as the hardware. Updates are of course expected, but they can call it webOS 1.6 or 1.8 or 2.0... I don't think the look and feel of the OS will essentially change. Maybe we'll get a new kernel, some extra features, hopefully a faster OS as a result... But the cards, multitasking, gestures, 3D acceleration, etc. all that is here to stay.

    Is it reasonable to launch a new version every year? Well, it corresponds to the developer of the OS (palm in this case) to decide whether enough improvements have been made to call it a new version. Look at the most popular linux distributions, which are coming with a new major version every six months. In comparison, one major version a year is within the scopes of anyone in the mobile realm. But also, there are other distributions (i.e Debian) and certain components of the OS, like the window managers, that are releasing at a more extended pace. With the frequent pace of updates palm is providing, pre users may hang on a little longer (1.5 years?) before a major upgrade. Or maybe not, since we're all avid hacker who enjoy trying new things! Version numbers are a matter of politics in the end and in many cases they may have to do more with marketing than with engineering.

    Regarding the hardware of the pre succesor, I don't think many radical changes will be made... Maybe we can count on a faster processor, a better camera, a compass and a 3.5-4.0" screen? If I'm allowed to dream a little bit, maybe palm will introduce a 10-12" tablet. What about a webOS ebook Reader? On CES we saw this technology that combined LCD and e-ink in the same screen... Wouldn't it be sweet to install webOS in such a tablet? Ok, maybe I've gone too far here but I think we can expect a bigger display in any case as I'll explain following.

    In general, Palm has a history of making devices (treos) and an OS (palmOS) oriented towards professionals who need to get things done well and fast. That led them to succeed when mobile devices were expensive enough that only businessmen could afford them. However, in recent years, with lower prices and a popularization of smartphones and PDAs, media phones have been gradually gaining momentum until we arrived to the actual situation. Now we have Iphone, android, WinMo and Nokia phones which are almost exclusively media-oriented devices, with big displays, ideal to play music, video and games but at the same time, they are sort of the opposite to "getting things done".

    What will palm do now? Will palm try to fulfill the needs of this sector of the market and release a "media-phone" (i.e. big display) or will they remain faithful to their old clients and come up with a pre-like form factor? I think that the announcement and release of 3D games for the pre at CES might be a declaration of intentions in the mid-term, since -in my opinion- you can enjoy more this kind of games on a bigger screen. And sales could improve for palm if they extended the user profiles they're aiming their devices to.
  8. #48  
    The major things Palm needs to focus on (for June and in general):

    1. New form factor. Palm has to appeal to broader audience, and many like the bigger screens

    2. Marketting! Ingrain the Palm in peoples minds as a cool phone to have!

    3. Either speed up the WebOS or the processor. The Pre can be sluggish at times.

    [Not to hijack this thread, but a quick question: The 'conversation' style messaging in WebOS, is that something that appeared in WebOS first? I like it a lot, as opposed to going to the inbox or outbox to read messages in a conversation separately]
  9. piaband's Avatar
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post
    I keep forgetting that while the Palm Pre was shown off at CES 2009 in January, and Pre Plus is shown off 1 year later at CES 2010, it's *shipping* far sooner than Pre did -- January vs. June so the 1/2 life refresh is spot on.

    But then what device do we need to see from Palm in June? Pre 2 with webOS 2? Are Apple and Google setting the pace at one major OS upgrade per year, and is that reasonable?

    @cardfan -- Verizon marketing is key. Look at DROID vs. BlackBerry Storm2. They threw Storm2 under the bus to market the DROID. Will Palm Pre be marketed as heavily as DROID, or as little as Storm2? I'm *guessing* somewhere in between. Will that be enough to sell units for Palm?
    I really hope Palm comes out with a 2.0 device and OS this summer. I am feeling like I wnat something new already. Gotta be bigger screen. I'm not sure there is much to go that will absolutely blow our minds.

    Palm being a smaller company, I'm not positive they will come out with a 2.0 device yearly like apple and google do. I'm not sure they haev the manpower to do it along with their aggressive OS updating they've been focused on.

    Also because they are a small company, I dont think Palm feels the need to outsell, or even sell as many units as apple or google. Of course thats always the objective, but I dont think it is going to happen, nor do I think it is necessary for them to survive.

    This does worry me though. If they cannot sell devices in large numbers, developers are not going to focus on webOS apps. I see webOS reeally lagging behing apple and google in the app department for the forseeable future. that is a problem.

    I dont think Palm is going to sell that many more devices than they did on Sprint. I hate to say that, but I really believe that. Palm has lost some momentum and they are going to need something really great to recapture it. I'm not sure they have that up their sleeve at this point, but I guess we'll see.
  10. piaband's Avatar
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    #50  
    @Rene Ritchie

    Sweet pic. Looks like my 4th grade yearbook picture. Is that laser show background?


    HAHa. sorry. Had to. Your an iphone guy. someone around here has to give you a hard time. and that background was calling me.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post
    But then what device do we need to see from Palm in June? Pre 2 with webOS 2? Are Apple and Google setting the pace at one major OS upgrade per year, and is that reasonable?
    For me personally, now that I have seen the Pre Plus, I am much more interested in webOS 2.0 than Pre 2.0! While I am a bit jealous of the Pre+ and its 2x RAM, I think they have shown that they can provide a solid piece of hardware that can support the OS, and hopefully that will make it's way to Sprint by the time we can upgrade. But, I do understand that there is a demand for a larger-screen device and if Palm is able to create new hardware that is competitive in the market while still moving the OS along, I would not be against it, as long as it still has a physical keyboard! But that's just my 2 cents!
  12. #52  
    marketing is key.
    half the verizon store reps say the pre won't be out for a few months; even the store manager at one busy store did not know pricing details.
    no demos in the stores yet.
    meanwhile droid demo placed prominently upfront--that placement and sales rep mindshare has to be worth at least a bunch of sales right there
  13. #53  
    A physical keyboard is a must have. I use iPhones and iPod touches in game testing and I consistently find the keyboard inferior. It's not just that it's virtual. Entering numbers and punctuation is frustrating on Apple's virtual keyboard.

    As for Palm, I wouldn't mind the availability of Pre Plus on Sprint. (I'm not willing to pay Verizon's prices for a phone line.) I'm alway glad for more RAM.

    In a few years, I expect that I'll be traveling internationally, so an unlocked GSM phone will be a must-have.
  14. vara411's Avatar
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    #54  
    1. Would love to see a bigger OLED screen, and sure it would be cool to see a webOS device with an elegant virtual keyboard... but versus physical??? When Steve Jobs told me I'd get used to the virtual keyboard on my iPhone, I believed him. A year and a half later, I still wanted to throw my iPhone through a wall. The keyboard on the Pre is cramped, yes. And it takes getting used to. But in this debate? I agree with Mr. Ruby. Hands down. (BTW I'm replying to this using my Pre...)

    2. Not sure what you mean about tap and drag... if it's copy/paste like some people have said here, then yes that makes sense...

    3. You bring up a good point and I think it's why many of us secretly hope Nokia will buy Palm out: more resources and a big name. Unfortunately name recognition counts for a LOT in this business and, no matter how well webOS devices can go toe-to-toe with the iPhone and Android, it won't be good enough. This is particularly why Palm's LOUSY ad campaign was so detrimental.

    4. W-w-wait... Palm Pre Plus is not a Pre 2.0 ... it's a 1.5 ... and a pretty darn good one, at that. Pixi Plus just added wifi, which should have been found on the original Pixi (ahem, Sprint). I'm looking forward to a Pre 2 in the summer.

    5. More carriers. MUCH more advertising, and I'm talking homerun ads, much like Apple vs. IBM back in the day (yeah, that's asking for a miracle.) More apps, and some BASIC ESSENTIALS like Docs2Go (hello?!) and visual voicemail.

    6. Honestly? iPhone has a lot of great qualities that are tempting... speed and apps being among them. But if I could steal one feature from iPhone it would be the whole "iPhone mystique." If Palm had the name recognition that Apple and Google have, this could be a different ballgame. Unfortunately Palm dragged their heels for too long and have fallen out of memory for many people.



    Enjoy "The Pre-cious!"
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    #55  
    I've been anxiously awaiting getting the Pre on Verizon and will be getting one on Monday. I wavered a little bit and almost picked up a droid, but the clincher for me was the new gaming capabilities and the keyboard. I like the portrait mode keyboard much better than the landscape or virtual keyboards.
  16. #56  
    I HEART the idea of making flash apps for WebOS. It would be ideal if something like "Flash" became the standard for non-graphic intensive apps for all phones.
  17. #57  
    1. The multitouch part I'm okay with. Familiar territory. But the keyboard at the bottom of both, do I *really* need it? I've gotten to love virtual keyboards so much I've arrogantly proclaimed the era of physical keyboards is over. Was Ruby right though, and Jobs wrong, would none of you prefer a webOS slab with a huge screen and no keyboard? Like an HD2 or Nexus style webOS OGRE?
    I agree with Ruby on the keyboard, but I don't know that a sampling of WebOS users is going to give you a good indication of whether or not a hardware keyboard is the real deal, or a virtual KB is the future. I suspect that many of us (definitely myself) are using WebOS because we wanted a physical keyboard. I don't think I'd own a device that didn't have one.

    2. You totally kick Apple's **** on notifications and multitasking. The multitasking visual metaphor is so good, in fact, that it's making me mad I can drag between cards. I do that a lot on the desktop, click and drag between windows. Is that something you can see Palm adding to webOS, tap and drag between cards? Or is that even needed on a mobile device yet?
    I don't know that this is "needed", but I'd agree that it'd be kick if it was added. I think as we see more and more things like this added, it will make the smartphone more and more a substitute for a PC. I'm nowhere near giving up my desktop, but I sure use it less than I did before having my Pre. I'm an IT pro, so I won't count work, but I've said before, my home use of a PC has probably dropped by 25-30% since getting a Pre. Features like this would increase my smartphone use.

    3. Arguably, with almost no money and limited resources, Palm out-innovated everyone last year. I'll say straight out they clowned Google, who I'm sure wishes they thought of webOS first, and couldn't improve Android as fast as Palm launched an entirely new OS. How did they do this? Rubinstein's vision? California magic? And if it forces other companies to innovate just as fast, given that limited money and resources, how can Palm keep up with the Apple and Google types?
    Much harder to answer, but I'd have to say they're doing it the right way - by keeping their eye on the target, and proceeding at their pace.

    4. What do you think about the Palm Pre Plus and Palm Pixi Plus? From last year to this, Apple went from the iPhone 3G/2.0 to iPhone 3GS/3.0, Android went from the G1/1.0 to the DROID/2.0. On the other hand, Microsoft went from Windows Mobile 6 to 6.5 and BlackBerry from the 9000 to 9700. How much of an improvement has Palm made over the last year, and blending into the previous question, is it enough for you? What are you happy they added, what are you sad they didn't?
    I think Palm did a good job on an upgrade. They kept it big enough to make it interesting, yet "same" enough that those of us that have the "old" Pre will get enough of the "new" to keep us happy (for the most part). I think it will be interesting to see what their next step is.

    5. What's next for Palm? They're getting on more carriers, so what else do they need 2010 to bring? Do they need webOS 2.0? Another device form-factor? Some huge app announcements? A content deal? Their own local sync software? What pieces do they simply have to add this year not just to survive, but to be one of the big players heading into 2011?
    I believe they've still got a lot of life left in the basic hardware, so the "next" should be "keep improving WebOS". Add API's, give more hardware access, increase the speed, add customization, etc. In short, continue to improve a great product.

    6. If you could steal one feature of the iPhone and give it to webOS, what would it be? By contrast, what single feature does webOS have you'd miss most if you had to switch to an iPhone (like for the Round Robin). There's pros and cons to every device, so I'm trying to get the best sense of trade-offs I can.
    Palm already "stole" my favorites, pinch and zoom and the accelerometer. I think about the only thing left is the solid feel. I don't know if it could be done and still maintain the smaller size, and the unique shape.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post
    Hey folks, Rene from theiphoneblog.com (TiPb if you're savvy) here to check out the new digs!

    TreoCentral was my first SPE experience. I believe some heavy-handed mod named Septimus kept trying to ban me. But whatever. TC was there for me from the Treo 600 to the Treo 680, and last year when their Round Robin entry was the HTC WinMo Pro... er.... Treo Pro.

    This year, however, the 2009 Smartphone Round Robin brings me to a whole new forum and even better -- and entirely new OS! webOS, to be specific, and you phenomenal folks here at PreCentral.net, whom I'm hoping can help me figure out this Palm Pre and Palm Pixi.

    1. The multitouch part I'm okay with. Familiar territory. But the keyboard at the bottom of both, do I *really* need it? I've gotten to love virtual keyboards so much I've arrogantly proclaimed the era of physical keyboards is over. Was Ruby right though, and Jobs wrong, would none of you prefer a webOS slab with a huge screen and no keyboard? Like an HD2 or Nexus style webOS OGRE?
    I don't think either of them was 100% right or wrong. I think there should be options for both. I would seriously consider a device like the nexus one running WebOS. I would also love if they made the pre a bit bigger, with a bigger keyboard, but also gave it a virtual keyboard. There are time when the physical keyboard is better and times when the virtual keyboard is better.

    2. You totally kick Apple's **** on notifications and multitasking. The multitasking visual metaphor is so good, in fact, that it's making me mad I can drag between cards. I do that a lot on the desktop, click and drag between windows. Is that something you can see Palm adding to webOS, tap and drag between cards? Or is that even needed on a mobile device yet?
    I think the cards are near perfect. What I could see happening is something like solitaire. Suppose I have 3 web browsers open, you could stack them, so that when you are in card view you only see a stack of web cards instead of 3 individual cards. It could make switching between activities that much faster. However, I would put this very low on the totem pole.

    3. Arguably, with almost no money and limited resources, Palm out-innovated everyone last year. I'll say straight out they clowned Google, who I'm sure wishes they thought of webOS first, and couldn't improve Android as fast as Palm launched an entirely new OS. How did they do this? Rubinstein's vision? California magic? And if it forces other companies to innovate just as fast, given that limited money and resources, how can Palm keep up with the Apple and Google types?
    Not sure how they did it, but they recruited a lot of talent, and they seem to be up to the challenge of recruiting more talent. Smart people make smart products. But the way they really out did google is they took a page from apple and made sure the product looked good. Android is incredibly functional, but it doesn't look great and it isn't "fun" to use. Palm really made sure that WebOS was a pleasure to use and look at. That is the difference in my mind. Android has functionality, but poor user experience. WebOS has great user experience, but less functionality, for now. Palm was also smart in realizing that it is easy to add functionality later in the game than it is to change appearance and flow of the OS.

    4. What do you think about the Palm Pre Plus and Palm Pixi Plus? From last year to this, Apple went from the iPhone 3G/2.0 to iPhone 3GS/3.0, Android went from the G1/1.0 to the DROID/2.0. On the other hand, Microsoft went from Windows Mobile 6 to 6.5 and BlackBerry from the 9000 to 9700. How much of an improvement has Palm made over the last year, and blending into the previous question, is it enough for you? What are you happy they added, what are you sad they didn't?
    The pluses in my mind are just minor hardware updates. Nothing really significant. Everyone that bought the Pre on day one, like I did, knows that the Pre was released in beta form. The hardware wasn't perfect and the OS had some problems. In these past 8 months, Palm has made huge strides. When 1.4 hits, the Pre will be near the perfect phone in my mind. It will lack a few things here and there, but all in all, it is a more complete package than any other mobile solution I can think of. I wouldn't mind voice dialing, but that isn't a deal breaker for me. I am glad they are finally getting video and flash, it is going to make the Pre even more appealling.

    5. What's next for Palm? They're getting on more carriers, so what else do they need 2010 to bring? Do they need webOS 2.0? Another device form-factor? Some huge app announcements? A content deal? Their own local sync software? What pieces do they simply have to add this year not just to survive, but to be one of the big players heading into 2011?
    Palm needs to stay on top of hardware. I would love to see a WebOS slab running on top of Tegra 2. Slab phones typically have better build quality since they have fewer moving parts, but if Palm sticks with the Pre form factor I will be ok. Since I am in the medical profession, I would like to see epocrates make it onto WebOS.

    As far as sync software goes, I don't think they should do local sync at all. What I think should be done is a web-based solution similar to the google apps. This way you could access your palm profile information anywhere on any computer. It would be a nifty way to install apps too. That still doesn't totally help the media sync solution, but I personally wouldn't try to make the Pre the end all be all media machine that apple has creative in the iPod/iPhone. I would rather join up with a 3rd party or parties and help develop support for various syncing solutions, so users are locked into any specific eco system.

    6. If you could steal one feature of the iPhone and give it to webOS, what would it be? By contrast, what single feature does webOS have you'd miss most if you had to switch to an iPhone (like for the Round Robin). There's pros and cons to every device, so I'm trying to get the best sense of trade-offs I can.
    I want the smoothness that the iPhone OS has. WebOS still has jerks and hiccups here and there. The iPhone is always slick and smooth, I would love to see that happen in WebOS.

    I would miss a lot of things of WebOS on the iPhone. I would miss notifications, multitasking and gestures. I would also miss the homebrew community. I love being able to patch my phone and make it my own. I hope that Palm starts including more of these patches in their OS so you can really customize your phone.

    Thanks PC! Look forward to chatting with you, and remember this is an official Round Robin thread -- every day you reply to me right here, you're entered for another chance to win a Palm webOS device of your very own!
    Master Pants, Lord of the Universe, Groupie of Blaize

    Need help with your webOS device? PM me for help!
  19. #59  
    my favorite feature of the pre over any other phone is the ability to just start typing and do things. Almost like a command line or Quicksilver or Gnome Do (mac and linux). I love to start typing and get the option to open, search, txt, call etc. Thats how I work on the desktop and how I love my phone to keep up with me.
  20. #60  
    I really only need this one palm device that I have now so I am not going to bother answer all of these questions just to win another. I don't mean to be a jerk but after reading these questions I can't help but feel like they are all the same question and they are superficial at best. They all come down to "what does palm need to do to compete with so and so." The honest answer to that for me is that I don't really care about what the competition is doing because i have an awesome phone that is fun and does what I need it to do. I feel like it was money well spent and I just hope Palm continues to do what they are doing now. If they do they will always have a customer in myself and many others. I don't care about version 2.0... 2.0 is just a number that only people who buy things based on advertising care about, a superficial selling point. I don't give a hoot about selling points such as this, I just like to get continued updates that work on the phone that I own and I don't want to have to buy a new device just to support a new version of WebOS. To put it bluntly I don't believe that palm being the biggest baddest smartphone company with the leading technology (most units sold, most powerful devices, most popularity, and richest company) would even be a good thing. I think I speak for most of us when I say that it's awesome to see the underdog able to provide such an awesome experience for it's consumers. I don't want things to get to the point where palm owns everything, I just want to see the company survive and not get eaten up by the companies who own a bigger piece of the pie. It seems to be commonplace in this world where larger more powerful people destroy the little guy who has the best ideas. Sort of like how the oil companies are ruining humanity and perpetuating the destruction of all that is good. It's ridiculous that in 2010 we are still using oil and in the case of cars still getting crap for mileage. I guess I'm kind-of a hippie.
    Please don't think I am bashing you, just putting in my 2-cents.

    p.s. Don't give me a free phone.
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