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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    ^^The market trend see's things differently. Why do you think the storm and storm2 were invented? Touchscreens are the future. My prediction is the 4.3-5.0 screens will be the sweetspot that will put pressure on the mini computer market. Soon the smartphone WILL be the new 'notebook'.

    Android Gaining Momentum Among Future Smartphone Buyers - Mac Rumors
    What is it specifically about touch that makes it the future of mobile computing?

    I can easily explain how and why BlackBerries are efficient mobile computing devices. Can you explain the strengths of any touch device aside from pointing at trends, can you even explain your own preference for it?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  2. #22  
    Its the cursed menu button! First time hitting that and I'm just lost in the overload of text in there. o.O!
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    What is it specifically about touch that makes it the future of mobile computing?

    I can easily explain how and why BlackBerries are efficient mobile computing devices. Can you explain the strengths of any touch device aside from pointing at trends, can you even explain your own preference for it?
    Well first and foremost touch screens are generally more intuitive and easier to navigate than manipulating a pointer. I'm a lot quicker at navigating to my favorite programs than using a stylus or trackball (and I've used them before). Secondly, I can see more of the screen which is a huge advantage when reading attachments/emails/ webpages. I think this is probably the main reasons many prefer the touch screens. And to incorporate a keyboard (that's not hidden) usually means giving up some of that. Thirdly, trackballs tend to deteriorate over time which usually means having to ditch the device. And it can be rather clunky and inconvenient to pull out a stylus every time I need to do some work. Lastly it's a matter of personal preference.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  4. #24  
    The things I miss about my blackberry curve:
    - sound profiles (pre's sound configurability is teh suck)
    - PIN messaging with delivery confirmation along with blackberry messenger. Much more reliable and robust than SMS.
    - True push mail that works well in areas with crappy coverage. Good luck with that using TCP and IMAP Idle.
    - A keyboard that is *easy* to use while holding the phone with one hand.
    - Native google maps client. Not a useless friggin' web app.
    - Overall messaging focus. Blackberries still do email/messaging better than anybody else.

    But otherwise, the Pre and WebOS blow the blackberries away.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    The oft repeated refrain of "boring phone" is really thought provoking. Ask yourself if playing with the phone UI, just touching and causing elements to slide and do "magical" things is in itself some kind of game playing. There's nothing wrong with having this sort of fun but you may not want to play with the UI when all you intend to do is entering a calendar event or task or make a phone call quickly on the go.
    Actually, for me, one of the big appeals of WebOS is the underlying open linux-based system. That's the part that I like to 'play' with. I love that it is EASY for me to tweak this phone to make it behave as I want it to (thus the 'fun' has a productivity payoff). Not quite as easily possible, if at all, on blackberry.
    IOW, it's not the interface that is boring so much as the inability to make the phone do what I want it to. This is possible in WebOS with no real learning curve for this linux systems admin and enthusiast.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Well first and foremost touch screens are generally more intuitive and easier to navigate than manipulating a pointer. I'm a lot quicker at navigating to my favorite programs than using a stylus or trackball (and I've used them before).
    It's easier to know where to point your finger. In other words it's easier to learn. But you have to point at a much larger area compared to using a keyboard shortcut, and the point target is often not fixed which doesn't lend itself to learning.

    Secondly, I can see more of the screen which is a huge advantage when reading attachments/emails/ webpages. I think this is probably the main reasons many prefer the touch screens. And to incorporate a keyboard (that's not hidden) usually means giving up some of that.
    I don't know that many prefer a huge screen at the expense of a keyboard. It's a trade off. I think it's one area the Pre has solved nicely, in allowing both a portrait keyboard and a full screen. But it comes with the need to physically "reconfigure" the phone before using the keyboard, which is time consuming. These are all trade offs. If one is mostly consuming media then a full screen should be preferable. But if one is entering data, splitting the device size between the screen and keyboard makes sense. I don't think you can say one is superior to another as a general rule. I'd actually argue that for a mobile device, it's more important to be able to send and receive small chunks of data on the go for a length of time, which requires an emphasis on an input system and battery conservation.

    Thirdly, trackballs tend to deteriorate over time which usually means having to ditch the device. And it can be rather clunky and inconvenient to pull out a stylus every time I need to do some work. Lastly it's a matter of personal preference.
    That is a problem with trackballs, but not with trackpads and d-pads. BlackBerries are now using track pads. In my own experience, when I used the G1 I mostly used the trackball instead of the touchscreen, and on my Palm phones used the screen without a stylus most of the time. It was very quick and could be done with one hand, whereas moving my finger across a large screen would require me to hold the device with the other hand.

    So far I'm not hearing a convincing argument for why the touch UI is the future.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    IOW, it's not the interface that is boring so much as the inability to make the phone do what I want it to. This is possible in WebOS with no real learning curve for this linux systems admin and enthusiast.
    You would like Android-based phones for this reason as well.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's easier to know where to point your finger. In other words it's easier to learn. But you have to point at a much larger area compared to using a keyboard shortcut, and the point target is often not fixed which doesn't lend itself to learning.
    You lost me here? Care to elaborate?




    I don't know that many prefer a huge screen at the expense of a keyboard. It's a trade off. I think it's one area the Pre has solved nicely, in allowing both a portrait keyboard and a full screen. But it comes with the need to physically "reconfigure" the phone before using the keyboard, which is time consuming. These are all trade offs. If one is mostly consuming media then a full screen should be preferable. But if one is entering data, splitting the device size between the screen and keyboard makes sense. I don't think you can say one is superior to another as a general rule. I'd actually argue that for a mobile device, it's more important to be able to send and receive small chunks of data on the go for a length of time, which requires an emphasis on an input system and battery conservation.
    Like I showed above, the trend is towards smartphones with touch only screens. However you want to interpret the numbers is up to you. But they speak very clearly to me.

    If by physically reconfiguring the phone, you meant simply sliding out the keyboard, then I don't see that as time consuming at all. Besides, many touchscreens have onscreen keyboards. I use the onscreen more than the physical for many things. Sometimes I never use the physical for days. I'm talking Droid here now though. Unfortunately the Pre's onscreen isn't quite there yet so I'm sure most are still on the physical. And when I'm finished with the onscreen, it goes away and gives me my full screen again. I do have the best of both worlds. I can also double-thumb the portrait and landscape kbs as well as use swype if I choose. So once they're mastered, onscreens can be just as fast or faster than physicals.

    Seems like you are grasping here a little. And while I'd agree the BB has the best physical keyboards, onscreen input technology like swype makes entering info quicker and more convenient (one handed even).


    That is a problem with trackballs, but not with trackpads and d-pads. BlackBerries are now using track pads. In my own experience, when I used the G1 I mostly used the trackball instead of the touchscreen, and on my Palm phones used the screen without a stylus most of the time. It was very quick and could be done with one hand, whereas moving my finger across a large screen would require me to hold the device with the other hand.

    So far I'm not hearing a convincing argument for why the touch UI is the future.
    I use my Droid one-handed quite a bit. I think you're overexaggerating the size of the touchscreen. With my thumb, I can easily navigate the entire screen and often do. Even with the 4.3 screens coming down the line, this should be easy. It's nice the newer BBs have moved on to something better than trackballs but to me, it still seems archaic.

    How much more convincing do you need than to look at the trends? Look at the iPhone even. Look the number of people abandoning the Blackberry for the touchscreens. I'm seeing people that are die-hard BB users with 2 phones, one being touchscreen only.

    There is no convincing argument for the trackball or stylus anymore. Precision used to be the reason, but with the modern touchscreens and OSs, that's no longer an issue. I challenge you to create a poll on any HTC forum regarding the trackball and how many use it versus the touchscreen, and I bet you the results will favor the touchscreen by a wide margin.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  9. #29  
    My girl uses a BB curve that I got her a year ago. She was never a smartphone user before and was completely green. After a week she was pretty much a pro with her new phone and was extremely happy. My background is WM since 2000 and when I used the BB i wanted to kill myself. Now that the pixi is released I want to get her on webos but she refuses because she doesn't want to re learn how to use a phone. Her main reason is she says I just want to make calls and get my e-mail. I remember before I got her curve she didn't want a new phone because she only wanted to make calls. So I figure if I get her out of the stone age BB OS to the pixi she will be like "O this is a nice easy phone to use" and she will be a expert in a week on webos. Long story short people are afford to switch from there BB because thats all they know.


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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    The things I miss about my blackberry curve:
    - sound profiles (pre's sound configurability is teh suck)
    - PIN messaging with delivery confirmation along with blackberry messenger. Much more reliable and robust than SMS.
    - True push mail that works well in areas with crappy coverage. Good luck with that using TCP and IMAP Idle.
    - A keyboard that is *easy* to use while holding the phone with one hand.
    - Native google maps client. Not a useless friggin' web app.
    - Overall messaging focus. Blackberries still do email/messaging better than anybody else.

    But otherwise, the Pre and WebOS blow the blackberries away.
    You make some great points but I think you have missed a few BB advantages over WebOS.

    - speed, the Bold and particularly the Bold 9700 load and switch between applications extremely quickly. Even the Curve is pretty quick.

    - Robust PIM applications (calendar, address book, tasks and notes) that give you the option of cloud syncing or desktop syncing and the option of facebook integration. PalmOS had better 3rd Party PIM applications but the BB built in apps compare fairly well with the PalmOS native PIM apps.

    - Speaking of facebook, the BB facebook app integrates nicely with the BB's push messaging.

    - A better camera on most recent devices.

    - better media applications out of the box

    - On some carriers and models, visual voice mail.

    - Wide choice of device (even have a flip phone).and availability on just about every US carrier (even Boost soon).
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joescan09 View Post
    My girl uses a BB curve that I got her a year ago. She was never a smartphone user before and was completely green. After a week she was pretty much a pro with her new phone and was extremely happy. My background is WM since 2000 and when I used the BB i wanted to kill myself. Now that the pixi is released I want to get her on webos but she refuses because she doesn't want to re learn how to use a phone. Her main reason is she says I just want to make calls and get my e-mail. I remember before I got her curve she didn't want a new phone because she only wanted to make calls. So I figure if I get her out of the stone age BB OS to the pixi she will be like "O this is a nice easy phone to use" and she will be a expert in a week on webos. Long story short people are afford to switch from there BB because thats all they know.
    She apparently just wants a phone/messaging device that works.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    You lost me here? Care to elaborate?
    Yes. The point I'm discussing is having a fixed interface for performing tasks. A full keyboard device is not just good for typing, it also has dozens of buttons to perform all kinds of actions right away, and those actions benefit from muscle memory because they are tied to a permanent interface. You can operate single handedly without looking at the UI which is important on the go.

    Like I showed above, the trend is towards smartphones with touch only screens. However you want to interpret the numbers is up to you. But they speak very clearly to me.
    The trend is there, I'm not denying it. I'm doubting it will endure because it has no particular benefits for experienced users.

    If by physically reconfiguring the phone, you meant simply sliding out the keyboard, then I don't see that as time consuming at all.
    It is as time consuming as pulling a stylus out, enough to discourage use on the go. These devices need to be instantly available and ready to accept input.

    Besides, many touchscreens have onscreen keyboards. I use the onscreen more than the physical for many things. Sometimes I never use the physical for days. I'm talking Droid here now though. Unfortunately the Pre's onscreen isn't quite there yet so I'm sure most are still on the physical. And when I'm finished with the onscreen, it goes away and gives me my full screen again. I do have the best of both worlds. I can also double-thumb the portrait and landscape kbs as well as use swype if I choose. So once they're mastered, onscreens can be just as fast or faster than physicals.
    Again, the problem is that these virtual keyboard are there only for typing, not to perform tasks, they don't ease launching tasks. And they require you to look at them. A physical keyboard lets you rely on muscle memory so you don't have to look at the device while operating it.

    Seems like you are grasping here a little. And while I'd agree the BB has the best physical keyboards, onscreen input technology like swype makes entering info quicker and more convenient (one handed even).

    I use my Droid one-handed quite a bit. I think you're overexaggerating the size of the touchscreen. With my thumb, I can easily navigate the entire screen and often do. Even with the 4.3 screens coming down the line, this should be easy. It's nice the newer BBs have moved on to something better than trackballs but to me, it still seems archaic.
    It's fun debating about ergonomics with someone who uses a Droid, a bulky and uncomfortable device with a toy keyboard. I would understand if you at least agreed that it's uncomfortable but the big screen is worth the trade offs, that would be a legitimate argument.

    A trackpad is just an optimization of the D-pad, which lets you control the entire device with very little movement. Again, the emphasis is on mobility, to be able to operate the device with one hand without needing to stop and look at the UI or hold the device with two hands while tapping on UI elements spread out on a full screen. The trackpad and full keyboard are a set of fixed dense navigation controls that apply to any screen.

    There is no convincing argument for the trackball or stylus anymore. Precision used to be the reason, but with the modern touchscreens and OSs, that's no longer an issue. I challenge you to create a poll on any HTC forum regarding the trackball and how many use it versus the touchscreen, and I bet you the results will favor the touchscreen by a wide margin.
    Lets do away with stylus, it's just a strawman you keep bringing into the discussion. BlackBerries don't use a stylus, and the latest ones don't even use a trackball. The argument is about which is better, a touch UI or track/D-pad and full keyboard.

    Here are some usability videos that demonstrate why physical controls are superior to a touch UI:









    Last edited by sivan; 01/06/2010 at 01:11 PM.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's fun debating about ergonomics with someone who uses a Droid, a bulky and uncomfortable device with a toy keyboard. I would understand if you at least agreed that it's uncomfortable but the big screen is worth the trade offs, that would be a legitimate argument.
    Hey now - I'm bulky, uncomfortable to hold, and type like a child. Sounds like the Droid was made for me!
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Hey now - I'm bulky, uncomfortable to hold, and type like a child. Sounds like the Droid was made for me!
    Enjoy
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Yes. The point I'm discussing is having a fixed interface for performing tasks. A full keyboard device is not just good for typing, it also has dozens of buttons to perform all kinds of actions right away, and those actions benefit from muscle memory because they are tied to a permanent interface. You can operate single handedly without looking at the UI which is important on the go.
    Other than rearranging icons the interface never changes on its own so memorizing location of icons becomes muscle memory. I'll agree physical keys are good for quick shorts cuts but we are talking seconds not minutes here so its even worth comparing. I operate my pre single handily all the time and with the quick launch bar it can be done with out looking.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The trend is there, I'm not denying it. I'm doubting it will endure because it has no particular benefits for experienced users.
    It was a trend a year ago now its the norm. Will phones with physical keys go away never but there will be more and more major phone releases without them because people want mobile media and big screens = better media experience. They also want to interact with that media you know like playing with a game built with flash for example which is more fun trying to hit keys or touching the screen?

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It is as time consuming as pulling a stylus out, enough to discourage use on the go. These devices need to be instantly available and ready to accept input.
    Sliding a pre open unlocks the phone and makes it ready to be used whether you type or use gestures or use what ever app was left open. We are talking milliseconds here not worth a mention. On full blown touch screens we are still talking a second at best still not something to be like OMG about because you had to slide your finger across the screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Again, the problem is that these virtual keyboard are there only for typing, not to perform tasks, they don't ease launching tasks. And they require you to look at them. A physical keyboard lets you rely on muscle memory so you don't have to look at the device while operating it.
    Other than launching a task what could you type other than a quick reply without looking at the phone. Tape yourself typing a 400 word email(no mistakes) without looking on your BB and your argument becomes solid until them its just some BS argument about opening things with key combos.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's fun debating about ergonomics with someone who uses a Droid, a bulky and uncomfortable device with a toy keyboard. I would understand if you at least agreed that it's uncomfortable but the big screen is worth the trade offs, that would be a legitimate argument.
    Personal opinion nothing more.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    A trackpad is just an optimization of the D-pad, which lets you control the entire device with very little movement. Again, the emphasis is on mobility, to be able to operate the device with one hand without needing to stop and look at the UI or hold the device with two hands while tapping on UI elements spread out on a full screen. The trackpad and full keyboard are a set of fixed dense navigation controls that apply to any screen.
    Again this is reaching, since a touchscreen phone can be used one handed and taping the screen is quicker and easier than moving a cursor around. As for shortcuts yes physical keys will be quicker but again we are talking seconds here not minutes to hours so the point becomes moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Lets do away with stylus, it's just a strawman you keep bringing into the discussion. BlackBerries don't use a stylus, and the latest ones don't even use a trackball. The argument is about which is better, a touch UI or track/D-pad and full keyboard.
    I agree who uses those things anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Here are some usability videos that demonstrate why physical controls are superior to a touch UI:









    I think you trying to make yourself feel better here the guy doing the pre video looks like hes scared to touch the phone or never used one.

    Other than key combination and physical feed back from the keys it offers nothing over a full touch ui. Your agrument of speed is mute when talking milli seconds to seconds, if we where talking minutes then ya I would agree but we are not. The issues with using them with one hand is bogus as well once your adjusted to how to hold the phone and use it you can one hand a touch ui. So what do yo have beside opening apps with key combos which btw as you see in the video require 2 hands and speed measured in seconds?
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by helidos View Post
    It was a trend a year ago now its the norm. Will phones with physical keys go away never but there will be more and more major phone releases without them because people want mobile media and big screens = better media experience. They also want to interact with that media you know like playing with a game built with flash for example which is more fun trying to hit keys or touching the screen?
    You are right about more and more phones without physical keys. Fortunately, I think Blackberry will be the last phone manufacturer to drop real keyboards.
  17. #37  
    BB OS is more for the suits.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by helidos View Post
    Other than rearranging icons the interface never changes on its own so memorizing location of icons becomes muscle memory. I'll agree physical keys are good for quick shorts cuts but we are talking seconds not minutes here so its even worth comparing. I operate my pre single handily all the time and with the quick launch bar it can be done with out looking.
    You can make things work for you. But the argument is about what's optimal for this use.

    Those seconds make the difference in whether you will actually launch the tasks or calendar apps to jot something down or carry on doing other things.

    It was a trend a year ago now its the norm. Will phones with physical keys go away never but there will be more and more major phone releases without them because people want mobile media and big screens = better media experience. They also want to interact with that media you know like playing with a game built with flash for example which is more fun trying to hit keys or touching the screen?
    Okay, well then just call them personal media players with an added phone. Or a superphone like Google is calling the Nexus One. A device that needs to be tethered to a power source daily and requires the user's full attention when used.

    Sliding a pre open unlocks the phone and makes it ready to be used whether you type or use gestures or use what ever app was left open. We are talking milliseconds here not worth a mention. On full blown touch screens we are still talking a second at best still not something to be like OMG about because you had to slide your finger across the screen.
    Have you used a front facing keyboard device before, like an older Palm OS device or a BlackBerry? Instant availability is very different than merely quick. Those few seconds here and there there are unacceptable when you need to enter data on the spot while talking to someone or needing to set a reminder.

    Other than launching a task what could you type other than a quick reply without looking at the phone. Tape yourself typing a 400 word email(no mistakes) without looking on your BB and your argument becomes solid until them its just some BS argument about opening things with key combos.
    Are you talking from experience or conjecture? I think the Pre has a nice solution for having both a full screen and a full keyboard in a compact device. But the sliding is a trade off. Everything is a trade off, so we need to agree on what's important in these devices, and whether they are even the same. So to declare that a touch UI is the future without qualifying to the type of device and usage doesn't say much.


    Personal opinion nothing more.
    It's not. The device is big and heavy in compare to its peers, and the sliding action takes effort. All these little obstacles, flipping the device, pushing the slider out and repositioning your hands count when you need to work in short bursts on the device throughout the day. At least the G1 had a spring assisted slider.

    Again this is reaching, since a touchscreen phone can be used one handed and taping the screen is quicker and easier than moving a cursor around. As for shortcuts yes physical keys will be quicker but again we are talking seconds here not minutes to hours so the point becomes moot.
    Most often you cannot use it one handed unless you don't mind dropping the device. Look, your thumb just can't easily reach the top corners of the screen while you are still holding the device in your palm. A track ball or d-pad is usually not a cursor but a quick scroll through items in the same manner the tab key jumps between links or form fields. The track action is most often previous/next/select. On my G1 I almost exclusively used the trackball instead of stretching my thumb to reach items on the screen. It's a great convenience.

    I think you trying to make yourself feel better here the guy doing the pre video looks like hes scared to touch the phone or never used one.
    This is not about the Pre necessarily. I included a variety of devices on purpose. Compare to the iPhone if you want. The argument started from the assertion that full screen touch UIs are the future. I countered by asking what are their advantages over physical input interfaces such as track/D pad and full keyboard. Look at all the videos, the ugly and older devices with physical input methods blow away the touch screen ones.

    Other than key combination and physical feed back from the keys it offers nothing over a full touch ui. Your agrument of speed is mute when talking milli seconds to seconds, if we where talking minutes then ya I would agree but we are not. The issues with using them with one hand is bogus as well once your adjusted to how to hold the phone and use it you can one hand a touch ui. So what do yo have beside opening apps with key combos which btw as you see in the video require 2 hands and speed measured in seconds?
    It's really simple. Say I just remembered I needed to do something. To open tasks on a BlackBerry I only have to type 'T', and Tasks is instantly opened, and by instant I mean not even a second. It's like a light switch.

    Speed is the killer feature of BlackBerries. You cannot compare quick and smooth with instant, the latter is absolute. Why wouldn't you want an instant response from your device?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  19. Helidos's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    You can make things work for you. But the argument is about what's optimal for this use.
    And whats optimal depends on the user. But a touch interface is a lot easier and more optimal for the average user. The style a touch ui emulates that of a desktop full of icons and your finger is the mouse. Which everyone and their grandma can work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Those seconds make the difference in whether you will actually launch the tasks or calendar apps to jot something down or carry on doing other things.
    Seriously? my day is not based around the second hand on my watch.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Okay, well then just call them personal media players with an added phone. Or a superphone like Google is calling the Nexus One. A device that needs to be tethered to a power source daily and requires the user's full attention when used.
    See now your bringing in other thing not related to touch vs keys. If BB's could not run a full day on one charge then they should close up shop because my calculator has enough of a processor to run the damn OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Have you used a front facing keyboard device before, like an older Palm OS device or a BlackBerry? Instant availability is very different than merely quick. Those few seconds here and there there are unacceptable when you need to enter data on the spot while talking to someone or needing to set a reminder.
    Yup a moto Q and curve, 8830 and a Bold(not mine) whats your point? Again if you wanna get into time then fine I can leave all the apps open on my pre and I got instant access to all of them whats your point with time sir? Opening the task app in .55 seconds compared to 1.2 seconds makes no difference if you think so your beyond an anal person and trying to nit pick about an issues related to the OS and hardware more than anything else.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Are you talking from experience or conjecture? I think the Pre has a nice solution for having both a full screen and a full keyboard in a compact device. But the sliding is a trade off. Everything is a trade off, so we need to agree on what's important in these devices, and whether they are even the same. So to declare that a touch UI is the future without qualifying to the type of device and usage doesn't say much.
    Nether does rambling on about not being able to access something a half second faster because you mashed 2 keys compared to quick launching it off a touch screen. You keep bringing up issues of speed which removing the os/hardware related issues they are so close its beyond even arguing about.
    Battery life again hardware/os related.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's not. The device is big and heavy in compare to its peers, and the sliding action takes effort. All these little obstacles, flipping the device, pushing the slider out and repositioning your hands count when you need to work in short bursts on the device throughout the day. At least the G1 had a spring assisted slider.
    Ok again personal opinion I happen to like the look of the phone and have toyed with one they are far from hard to open. Big yes and so is the screen real estate. Heavy compared to it peers but again personal preference on whether that a problem or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Most often you cannot use it one handed unless you don't mind dropping the device. Look, your thumb just can't easily reach the top corners of the screen while you are still holding the device in your palm. A track ball or d-pad is usually not a cursor but a quick scroll through items in the same manner the tab key jumps between links or form fields. The track action is most often previous/next/select. On my G1 I almost exclusively used the trackball instead of stretching my thumb to reach items on the screen. It's a great convenience.
    What are you kidding? LMFAO seriously listen there is not a single part of the pre's screen I can not touch while holding it with one hand with the kb open. The pre closed is not longer than the palm of my hand. Open and placing it at my wrist it reaches the middle of ring finger. The girl at work uses her's all the time one handed and she got tiny hands. I know what scrolling through icons is but servers the same purpose.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    This is not about the Pre necessarily. I included a variety of devices on purpose. Compare to the iPhone if you want. The argument started from the assertion that full screen touch UIs are the future. I countered by asking what are their advantages over physical input interfaces such as track/D pad and full keyboard. Look at all the videos, the ugly and older devices with physical input methods blow away the touch screen ones.
    Blow them away how that the problem they don't only for certain tasks which usually related back to OS problems or hardware. Not because of physical keys. Like I said physical keys are not going anywhere any time soon but touch ui is the future if you fail to see this then idk what to tell you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's really simple. Say I just remembered I needed to do something. To open tasks on a BlackBerry I only have to type 'T', and Tasks is instantly opened, and by instant I mean not even a second. It's like a light switch.
    Dude that's all related to the fact that the OS is beyond old and matured and can run great with the processor than is in my calculator. Now comparing that to the pre leaving the task app open its a swipe over .5 seconds if that's to much time like I said you anal.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Speed is the killer feature of BlackBerries. You cannot compare quick and smooth with instant, the latter is absolute. Why wouldn't you want an instant response from your device?
    Na the killer feature of BB is email. Speed is a by product of an old OS on newer hardware.

    Look the BB os will soon change or they will be in hot water real soon so expect your new love for the BB os to change soon. Also touch interfaces are the future numbers don't lie if you wanna to keep hiding behind I saved 48 second today because of my BB then so be it. People want the cool tech not boring tech.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by helidos View Post
    And whats optimal depends on the user. But a touch interface is a lot easier and more optimal for the average user. The style a touch ui emulates that of a desktop full of icons and your finger is the mouse. Which everyone and their grandma can work with.
    What you are saying is that the touch UI is easier to learn. That's different from optimal. They are by necessity simplified so they can be touched. This comes at the expense of functionality.

    Seriously? my day is not based around the second hand on my watch.
    Then this simply means you have a preference for entertainment over productivity and I don't dispute that large screens are great for entertainment, and they often come at the expense of a keyboard and other physical buttons.

    See now your bringing in other thing not related to touch vs keys. If BB's could not run a full day on one charge then they should close up shop because my calculator has enough of a processor to run the damn OS.
    What new things am I bringing into it? Again, the argument was, and you are repeating it, that touch UI is the future. You and darreno1 make that assertion without qualifications. I am saying that it might work for entertainment devices and if you're into that, great. But I'm specifically asking about producitivity, because you two are saying that BlackBerries must also adopt a touch UI.

    Yup a moto Q and curve, 8830 and a Bold(not mine) whats your point? Again if you wanna get into time then fine I can leave all the apps open on my pre and I got instant access to all of them whats your point with time sir? Opening the task app in .55 seconds compared to 1.2 seconds makes no difference if you think so your beyond an anal person and trying to nit pick about an issues related to the OS and hardware more than anything else.
    Why would you want a slower device, is there a particular benefit that's worth it? Are you startled when an app launches instantly?

    Nether does rambling on about not being able to access something a half second faster because you mashed 2 keys compared to quick launching it off a touch screen. You keep bringing up issues of speed which removing the os/hardware related issues they are so close its beyond even arguing about.
    Battery life again hardware/os related.
    It's not close at all. It makes all the difference when the device performs tasks instantly. It's also how I use my computers, almost everything via the keyboard and minimal use of the mouse.

    Ok again personal opinion I happen to like the look of the phone and have toyed with one they are far from hard to open. Big yes and so is the screen real estate. Heavy compared to it peers but again personal preference on whether that a problem or not.
    I don't understand why you call this personal opinion. You agree that it's bigger and heavier than its peers. We also know that the slider is not spring assisted and takes effort to open and shut. We know it makes no concessions to being held in your palm. Now, you can still say you think the large screen is worth all these trade offs. That would be a valid argument. But to say that this is somehow ergonomic makes no sense.

    What are you kidding? LMFAO seriously listen there is not a single part of the pre's screen I can not touch while holding it with one hand with the kb open. The pre closed is not longer than the palm of my hand. Open and placing it at my wrist it reaches the middle of ring finger. The girl at work uses her's all the time one handed and she got tiny hands. I know what scrolling through icons is but servers the same purpose.
    Lets separate the Pre from other full screen devices. Palm made the screen small and it is easier with the Pre, but it's still much harder than say the Pixi. The keys take some effort to press and it's pretty top heavy. Now, isn't it the case that Palm requires you to press the gesture area with one hand while you tap a key? How about holding down the orange key and tapping the screen? Again, Palm has decided on two handed operations no matter how determined you are to make it work with one hand.

    Aside from the Pre, the argument is about full screen touch UI devices. Lets look at the iPhone as an example of a screen only device. It is much larger that the Pre, by necessity, to accommodate a virtual keyboard large enough on the screen. The iPhone screen must be large enough to allow typing, and this makes it harder to use one handedly. This applies to any device centered around full screen and touch UI.

    Blow them away how that the problem they don't only for certain tasks which usually related back to OS problems or hardware. Not because of physical keys. Like I said physical keys are not going anywhere any time soon but touch ui is the future if you fail to see this then idk what to tell you.
    I can't follow your writing here, some words or punctuation marks are missing. Isn't it clear in the videos that tasks are much faster on the older devices with physical keys, yes or no?

    Dude that's all related to the fact that the OS is beyond old and matured and can run great with the processor than is in my calculator. Now comparing that to the pre leaving the task app open its a swipe over .5 seconds if that's to much time like I said you anal.
    Actually swiping takes well over a second and it's not being anal. Again, how is a sliding action better than instant one? What do you get from sitting through that animation when you're trying to do something? And as for leaving tasks open on the Pre...can you say "too many cards".

    Na the killer feature of BB is email. Speed is a by product of an old OS on newer hardware.
    How is it old exactly? Linux is also old, it's been around since the 1990s. The BlackBerry is fast because it's optimized, because optimization is important for a mobile device, and that need is not going away.

    Look the BB os will soon change or they will be in hot water real soon so expect your new love for the BB os to change soon. Also touch interfaces are the future numbers don't lie if you wanna to keep hiding behind I saved 48 second today because of my BB then so be it.
    It's not about saving the 48 seconds. There are certain situations, common with a mobile device, that need that instant response. If someone is talking to me about setting an appointment, I'm not going to cut them off and ask them to wait while I'm trying to keep up. If I need to quickly look up something in my tasks list or enter something I just remembered, I don't want to defer it until I can enter it at my leisure and can use two hands while sitting through sliding menus.

    People want the cool tech not boring tech.
    That is the heart of the matter. You want to be entertained by your device instead of using it to do stuff in the real world.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
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