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  1. tlaz's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil750 View Post
    Hey, everybody. Phil here from WMExperts. We're kicking off the third annual Smartphone Round Robin, and in Week 1 I'm looking at Palm's webOS, the Pre and the Pixi.

    Now don't tell anybody at WME that I said this, but that's a pretty darn solid platform you've got there. But that doesn't mean I don't have questions. So, help me out with the following:

    1. Is webOS going to hold up? Sure, it's great for now. But how long until everybody's screaming for immersive gaming and full-on graphics?
    2. The Pixi's a cute little phone, but is the trade-off in power, and the (current) lack of WiFi, a deal-killer?
    3. Homebrew is darn cool, a lot like being able to load custom ROMs on HTC devices. If there was no Homebrew and you were left only with the App Catalog, would you still be on webOS?
    4. webOS on an HTC HD2. Just picture it.
    5. I'm still a little P-Od that Palm killed the Windows Mobile Treo. Had to get that out there. I feel better now.
    6. Palm's still not out of the financial woods yet. Do you think they're going to make it in the long run?


    So throw me a friggin' bone here, OK? I need some help. And remember that anytime you add a post here, you're entered to win a webOS device of your choice. More details on that and plenty more on the third annual Smartphone Round Robin here.
    Hey Phil -

    I have a question for you. What is happening with Windows Mobile? It seems to be all but dead - no buzz, which is worse than bad buzz.

    As to your questions:

    I think the big thing to remember is that Palm has taken the big picture view about smartphones when launching the Pre and Pixi. They are not all that concerned with having hardcore smartphone users ADORE them. They want as many people who are choosing their FIRST smartphone to pick a Pre or Pixi. Because the smartphone market is a big land grab right now. It's exploding. And having a platform like WebOS allows them to get a piece of that pie. It might be a smaller piece than Apple, Google or RIM's share, but it's a very big pie. So they want a phone that will do everything well enough to attract first-time users. It won't be the PIM rockstar that PalmOS was. It won't be the gaming phone the iPhone is. It won't be the email platform that BB is. Just a solid, versatile couple of phones to launch on the new platform. At the same time, they're trying like crazy to make the OS more robust, stable and responsive, and do it as fast as they can, before the other OS's gain too much traction. So they are sacrificing depth/excellence for breadth/versatility.

    So yes, the Pixi isn't a beast. But it should be good enough for the person switching from a simple flip phone. Someone who doesn't really care about gaming, but wants to text, call, do FB, and some light calendar stuff. it's a chick phone (hate to say it, but it's true). Not meant for power users. But something with mass appeal - they hope.

    For me, homebrew has been a godsend. Lots of great customization options and free apps to tide us over till there's a real catalog. Not sure when that will be, but... Using the Pre in the first couple of months without homebrew was a real drag. The little details - landscape mode, no app limit, virtual keyboard, fb and twitter clients - were sorely missing. A lot has been remedied as they've updated the OS, but it has a ways to go.

    The biggest drawback, and the big fly in the ointment to Palm's mass market strategy is the hideous LAG in WebOS. This will frustrate and annoy and turn away new users in droves. IMHO if they don't get this right in 3-6 months, it's curtains. New users who encounter it will drop it fast with other, better, faster, smoother, less frustrating UI's now widely available. Plain and simple. It has to be an absolute joy to use. If it is, they are in the game long-term. At minimum as an acquisition. If they get traction with Verizon and ATT, and continue to pick up speed in Europe, they are a major player.
  2. schwabj's Avatar
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    #82  
    I am one of the lucky ones. I have a day one unit and have had no problems with it at all. So for me HW has never been an issue with the Pre.

    Homebrew is one of the great, and unexpected, aspects of the WebOS. Most of my apps are (or formerly were) Homebrews. Also all the patches and tweaks give people many options to style their Pre just the way they want to.

    Lastly, I am looking forward to implementation of WebGL to break open the game potential. It will never be a primary gaming platform, but who doesn't like killing a little time now and then with some engaging games.
  3. #83  
    Phil,

    1. I thought it was interesting to read someones response saying that WebOS will survive even if Palm failed. I have to agree and I would love to have it ported to a PC.
    2. I bought a Pixi for my daughter on day one. I had a week to spend with it. The phone is just as fast, won't handle as many cards. 6 is about it, but hell, I close cards anyway if over that. Wifi, isn't a deal killer for the targets, but wow is it hard to be on the phone and not be able to browse after being used to it. Pixi on GSM, granted the service actually works wouldn't be an issue, so yes AT&T NEEDS WiFi!
    3. I came off of WM 6.1 on a Mogul (and as previously posted that it didn't work good - I disagree. It worked fine for me as long as I rebooted every two days, I need to do that with my patched Pre as well). Homebrew is awesome, the apps - it is cool to have input into them. The patches complete the phone. A base OE Pre? It would be tough but I would stay.
    4. I broke more HTC's than any other phone, I think their touch screens suck. On an N900 well ya...
    5. I just like WebOS better, and why build a Toyota and put a Chevy engine in it? Or vise-versa...
    6. I hope they survive on their own, but wouldn't be shocked to hear an acquisition to come down.
  4. #84  
    I've been using a Palm Pre for only a month now, but here are my thoughts:

    1. As long as Palm continues to update webOS, I think that it will hold up against the iPhoneOS and Android very nicely. In its short lifespan I feel that it already has major advantages over any other mobile OS.

    2. Would never trade my Pre in for a Pixi!

    3. Yes I would still be on webOS, but the homebrew is a huge boon.

    4. The thought of this makes my eyeballs bleed....

    5. Meh....

    6. Ask me this after CES 2010
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil750 View Post
    Wow. You all are incredible. Never expected such great replies, nor so many. Either you all really believe in and care about webOS and Palm that much, or maybe you just want to win a new phone. But either way, keep it up. You're all living up to what Dieter told me to expect.

    Day one of the third annual Smartphone Round Robin down, many more to go.

    - Phil/wmexperts.com
    Coming from a TP, I actually kind of miss the winmo community. As a whole, I think it's a much less whiny bunch. Of course, the homebrew folks on here are fabulous, and there are obviously a lot of really smart posters here, but there are also quite a few sky is falling types that seem to have nothing better to do than complain in a non-constructive fashion.

    As for your experience with WebOS and probable return to Winmo, I'm sure you'll have some (more) issues with winmo's clunky UI than you did before you used a Pre. Then again, you'll be glad when you're back on Winmo and there is almost nothing you can't do with your phone, even if it takes a little time to do whatever that anything is.
  6. #86  
    Another thing, while the HD2 is pretty rad, I'd say that the Pre's shape is far more elegant, even if the hardware has been somewhat problematic. Having had the Pre for 6 months now, even the relatively small TP seems too big to me- the HD2 and TP2 seem huge and not all that pocketable to me.
  7. #87  
    1. I think immersive gaming is overrated on mobile platforms. A lot of people buy the games, but you don't see that many people really playing them in public, and at home...what's the point? That said, the platform has the potential to support more immersive gaming...after all, it's built on Linux and it will be getting gifted with Flash pretty soon here besides. For a mobile phone with a teeny tiny screen, that's all the immersion worth packing into a phone. Don't compare that to the infamous BillG 64kb line...this limitation is based on something that isn't changing anytime soon...the baseline for human visual acuity. What people want out of a smartphone is a hassle free existence. They want to be able to do their stuff quickly, effectively, and be able to do a lot of the "cool stuff" like gaming once in awhile when the opportunity presents itself. The ease of updating the platform, the notifications, and the ability to quickly open up your contact list while on a call or your email is a pretty handy thing as most WM users can attest to. The webOS platform makes it pretty easy to do.

    The worst thing going for the webOS platform is the immaturity of the hardware devices it runs on, and a few design shortcomings...but being so updateable, it's just a matter of waiting for Palm to get them fixed, and that's something people expect from their desktop use. You shouldn't ever expect users to reflash a device on their own, no matter how easy you make it.

    2. The Pixi's purpose is to be an entry-level smartphone. The typical user of such a cheap smartphone is probably going to use the unlimited data network anyway. That may lead to iPhone-like Cingular problems, but the phone is going to have to do REALLY well to end up there. As for speed, that can be a little bit of a concern, but most tests have got the Pixi not too far off from the Pre...and with further Linux kernel and memory/app optimizations through updates, it should be okay long term.

    3. I'd still be on webOS without Homebrew, but I wouldn't be as happy with it. Palm's got to cover their tails with the app catalog, but there's no denying the geeky pleasure of the homebrew scene, and it's really awesome of Palm to not drop the hammer on it like Apple has done on multiple occasions.

    4. webOS would be great on a lot of phones. Of course, the phone would need to support all the gestures. As long as the battery life doesn't drop off any more than the Pre, of course. My phone's got to last on one charge for exactly one (1) day without a charge at the very least, otherwise, it becomes useless.

    5. I did all my WM development with WM Treos. I just liked them a lot more for development than those old HTC bricks that my old employer would try to order for me. The WM Treos were just easier to deal with.

    6. Palm's got more of a path to success than the current smartphone industry marketing hype would make you believe. As a developer, I've never really been entirely enamored with the potential of iPhone OS and Android. I've developed on both platforms, but neither of them seemed really "revolutionary" and fully on board with where things are going with modern platform development. Android, I guess, is a little closer to the mark, but there are a lot of things I didn't care for about it as well (open, but not open, not as cross-platform as java should be, developer friendly...to an extent...and I've always been worried about the security of the platform). iPhone is kind of starting to fall into that same spot that PalmOS used to sit in back in 2003/2004...it was still getting new features and loads of development and great apps, but you could see a wall looming on the horizon. Things people are asking for that should be straightforward to implement for iPhone OS still aren't there in the platform for whatever reason. Palm's got a shiny new platform that seems to be fairly on board with where things are going in the industry, not so overdeveloped that they'd have to gut a lot of things out, but a good foundation to work with. It's an "agile" enough platform that it should be able to stick around for awhile, provided investors keep pumping money into Palm and they get a few other carriers on board. Can't say at all how this platform will look in 4 years, but for now, it works nicely and a lot of people who take the time to try it out seem to like it a lot.
    Last edited by zullnero; 12/16/2009 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Removed the excess smeg
  8. #88  
    I think webOS on a hd2 would be a good idea, I always thought they needed 3 phones: candybar, slider, and a high red slab. No more and no less for quality control and easier development
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil750 View Post
    Hey, everybody. Phil here from WMExperts. We're kicking off the third annual Smartphone Round Robin, and in Week 1 I'm looking at Palm's webOS, the Pre and the Pixi.

    Now don't tell anybody at WME that I said this, but that's a pretty darn solid platform you've got there. But that doesn't mean I don't have questions. So, help me out with the following:

    1. Is webOS going to hold up? Sure, it's great for now. But how long until everybody's screaming for immersive gaming and full-on graphics?
    2. The Pixi's a cute little phone, but is the trade-off in power, and the (current) lack of WiFi, a deal-killer?
    3. Homebrew is darn cool, a lot like being able to load custom ROMs on HTC devices. If there was no Homebrew and you were left only with the App Catalog, would you still be on webOS?
    4. webOS on an HTC HD2. Just picture it.
    5. I'm still a little P-Od that Palm killed the Windows Mobile Treo. Had to get that out there. I feel better now.
    6. Palm's still not out of the financial woods yet. Do you think they're going to make it in the long run?


    So throw me a friggin' bone here, OK? I need some help. And remember that anytime you add a post here, you're entered to win a webOS device of your choice. More details on that and plenty more on the third annual Smartphone Round Robin here.
    I was myself a Windows Mobile user for quite a while before recently picking up a Palm Pre. There are still a few things I miss from my HTC Touch (with custom ROM), but all in all, I'm happier with the day to day useability of WebOS. The ease of switching between active apps is the real killer feature for me; doing this on WinMo was always really annoying, and turned something simple into more of a chore. Most often I would give up and wait until I could get to a computer. As for your questions/points:

    1) As long as the updates and improvements keep coming, I can see it lasting for a while. Plus, with new devices in the future, the hardware will get better as well.

    2) For some I assume the Pixi will suit their needs just fine. With the proper data plan, the lack of Wifi won't be an issue for some. As for the slower speed, with improvements to WebOS itself, hopefully any speed issues will be addressed.

    3) I was just thinking about this yesterday actually. Without Homebrew, as it stands right now, I would be very frustrated with Palm. A lot of the patches from Homebrew are, for me, adding functionality that the Pre should have had out of the box. It's great that the developers have released these patches, but for Palm to rely on them to bring the phone up to the same functionality that every other phone out there has, is pretty weak. Especially for such a "revolutionary" device as the Pre.

    As for the App Catalog itself; I'm in Canada, so am not all that happy with the current state of it. What I would really like right now is some idea as to why we don't have access to paid apps yet, and when we might expect them. I recently lost an app due to the free version expiring, and the newest version needs to be purchased. I was unable to get to the information I had entered into the App, and, of course, these were reminders I had made for myself.

    4) Would be very cool

    5) Understandable

    6) Palm needs to keep it coming. If they just stopped now, and left WebOS as it is, they would sink. They also need some better QC and testing on their hardware before releasing. Too many issues with the Pre, and now I hear even the Pixi, just after release. It makes for annoyed customers, and lord knows there's plenty of other options out there for them to choose from.

    All in all, I'm going to be sticking with WebOS for some time, as I'm looking forward to where Palm takes it. More Apps will be a huge plus once it happens, and I love the real life, day to day useability of it. Windows Mobile has a lot going for it, but it sorely needs a new user interface. Windows Mobile 7 will be interesting... once it finally arrives
  10. #90  
    webOS has to be looked at as pure potential between hardware and company
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil750 View Post
    I'm still a little P-Od that Palm killed the Windows Mobile Treo. Had to get that out there. I feel better now.
    From how the products are, I think WM is better off with HTC; Palm is better off with Palm OS or webOS. Although I personally don't like WM, if WM is the only choice, I'd get an HTC phone over a WM Treo. To me, Palm is all about the software. If Palm doesn't have it's own software, it's not worth getting a Palm device. (Would you take WM with a touch of oreo? )
  12. l1fe's Avatar
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    #92  
    1. webOS will hold up as long as there continues to be development from Palm and partners to allow low level access to the phone hardware. It's fast as it is for simple apps, and the UI is very intuitive (my GF prefers her pre over the iPhone and droid). Again, as long as the platform has the proper backing, I don't see it dying anytime soon, especially considering its high adoption outside of the US.

    2. Definitely a deal breaker for me. Sprint's network isn't good enough for the phone not to have wi-fi.

    3. I've had the Pre since opening day and liked webOS well enough that I didn't homebrew for a few months. That being said, now that I have, I can't see myself going back. I REALLY appreciate how supportive Palm has been for the homebrew community.

    4. Palm has a winner in webOS, but their hardware definitely needs some help. That stupid charger cover snapped off .

    5. Meh :P.

    6. I think the market is big enough for now so that Palm can survive.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by intellidryad View Post
    From how the products are, I think WM is better off with HTC; Palm is better off with Palm OS or webOS. Although I personally don't like WM, if WM is the only choice, I'd get an HTC phone over a WM Treo. To me, Palm is all about the software. If Palm doesn't have it's own software, it's not worth getting a Palm device. (Would you take WM with a touch of oreo? )
    Anyone that's had a WM slider, including the TP and TP2, probably knows about how a slider wobbles. It's the nature of the slider beast.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by oddlou View Post
    Anyone that's had a WM slider, including the TP and TP2, probably knows about how a slider wobbles. It's the nature of the slider beast.
    This is actually why I kind of want a slab or high powered candy bar phone, no moving parts. I am starting to think slab is the way to go. It is just hard to argue with a huge gorgeous screen. And honestly, the bigger the screen the easier the keyboard is to use, assuming it has haptic feed back and all.
    Master Pants, Lord of the Universe, Groupie of Blaize

    Need help with your webOS device? PM me for help!
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil750 View Post
    1. Is webOS going to hold up? Sure, it's great for now. But how long until everybody's screaming for immersive gaming and full-on graphics?
    2. The Pixi's a cute little phone, but is the trade-off in power, and the (current) lack of WiFi, a deal-killer?
    3. Homebrew is darn cool, a lot like being able to load custom ROMs on HTC devices. If there was no Homebrew and you were left only with the App Catalog, would you still be on webOS?
    4. webOS on an HTC HD2. Just picture it.
    5. I'm still a little P-Od that Palm killed the Windows Mobile Treo. Had to get that out there. I feel better now.
    6. Palm's still not out of the financial woods yet. Do you think they're going to make it in the long run?
    Hiya Phil:

    I'm sure I'm just echoing what's already been said by many others, but will throw my voice to the chorus.

    1) Even though I'm not a gamer, I truly think having a beautiful screen (like the Pre offers) without offering full-on graphics/gaming is a shame. I do play games during commute time though. There are many times I'm sitting on the train going home playing a streaming a local radio station or podcast to my Pre while playing a basic dice game... while sitting next to an iPhone user playing something that actually looks fun. Even though I love my device and think Palm's WebOS is outstanding and the screen is beautiful - when playing a game next to an iPhone user I feel like a kid playing an original Electronic Quarterback game sitting next to someone playing a Nintendo DS.
    Granted that's a superficial thing, but really hope Palm steps up their game in this department (pardon the pun).

    2)I think for the price, the Pixi is a very nice competitor. The OS is fantastic even though the phone is less powerful, I think it could do very well. As for the lack of WiFi... I believe Verizon is going to offer the phone with this feature (rumor has it). I hate the phone's name and by the feedback from my friends...I'm not the only one. Hate to be stereotypical here...but from a marketing perspective they really limited the demographics with that name. (don't agree? do a poll.)

    3) Without the Homebrew community... I would be MUCH less happy with my phone. The Pre without Homebrew... is like offering a hamburger without a bun. Yes, its still a hamburger, but it's FAR FAR FAR from complete. I would probably still bought the Pre without it, but chances are that I would have changed devices as soon as I could because the Pre by itself (with just the App Catalog) is lacking too much.

    4)I tried... it would DEFINITELY feel more solid, but lack the elegance of its current form.

    5)Um.. sorry.. was always running the PalmOS before the Pre. Never a fan of WinMo. (I said I was Sorry)

    6) This brings such a feeling of déjà vu. I sooo remember Apple in the 80's was having the exact same comments being thrown at them. Never going to make it. Perhaps their OS will survive after the company is gone in a year. Etc... If Palm can stay smart, employ cutting edge ideas and people, and run better commercials (sigh)... they can make a solid play for a locking a big chunk of the mobile OS market.

    I'm still getting used to the 'cheap' feeling of the phone, but absolutely LOVE it. I'd be hard pressed to choose another phone/OS after having used this device for a while now.
  16. #96  
    I'm curious Phil's experiences and thoughts on WM running on multiple platforms similar to what Android is doing now - pros/cons. One advantage PALM has is tighter control of the entire integrated software/hardware experience.
  17. #97  
    WebOS on the HD2? I'm not sure if I'm feeling that argument right now. I really feel the HD2 is too large to only be considered a phone anymore. Its more of a MID, UMPC, PMP all in one with that large screen. Its a beautiful piece of technology, don't get me wrong, but I still won't be able to fit that in my pocket, let alone look cool with that monster holstered in a belt clip/sleeve.

    Now, if the HD3 keeps the same screen size and resolution and eliminates 90% of the bezel (making the screen take up the entire front face of the device), that would be awesome. It would be about 30% smaller than the current HD2, which would be perfect for pocketing/slinging on the hip. Wouldn't mind a little bit more of a curvature to its shape as well. What can I say, the Pre is a sexy device and I love its shape in my hand.
  18. #98  
    Owning my 2 faulty Palm Pres made me re-fall in love with my old HTC Touch Pro (flashed with EnergyROM). It's a shame I'd had to sell it on eBay to fund buying my Pre

    Basically: Windows is still not terribly pretty, and even with 6.5 you can still see a lot of 2003 design elements in there. It's main problem is that it's buggy and doesn't work that well. The good news is that you can throw a 1GHZ processor in there that'll power through most of the issues, and you get a great choice in hardware and software mods / add-ons. Plus, if you're a nerd, the geniuses at XDA-Dev can figure a way to overcome any limitations.

    The Pre looks great, but is limited to web-apps, you're stuck with appauling hardware and essentially the product doesn't work as a phone. No amount of patching adds any real features.

    I am ashamed to say that the £25 Nokia loan phone I've got form O2 whilst my Pre is being fixed has far more features that would be considered typical of a premium (smart?)phone. (bluetooth, working a2dp, flash on camera, file management, auto focus, voice recorder, videocamera, expandable memory).

    It's not really fair to compare the Pre to WinMo because for all purposes, the Pre is as much a smartphone as any dollar-store phone that runs Java apps - ie - any phone since 2003, just with a touchscreen.

    I have now been lucky enough to get a Motorola Milestone (aka Droid but with multi-touch enabled). Android 2.0 kinda feels like I'm back on WinMo but without the buggy performance. It's fantastic! I don't have to feel embarassed explaining to smug iPhone users why I can't do basic tasks with my gorgeous, but completely impractical Pre anymore. And I don't have to take a phone charger to work now And best of all, I can recieve phone calls reliably! There's no browser-lag on the net either.

    Sorry to hijack this dscussion, but as a user of every smartphone platform Android 2.0 is my fave already. It's like a good compromise - almost as nerdy as Windows with openness and features and choice of hardware, and almost as pretty as iPhone. Everything I'd wanted in the Pre.
  19. Phil#AC's Avatar
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       #99  
    WinMo definitely isn't dead. It's just resting. lol.

    It's a bit of a weird time. Windows Mobile 6.5 isn't going to wow the world, but neither is it a bummer of an upgrade.

    Expecting better hardware to be announced this spring, and Windows Mobile 7 to blow people away by this time next year.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlaz View Post
    Hey Phil -

    I have a question for you. What is happening with Windows Mobile? It seems to be all but dead - no buzz, which is worse than bad buzz.
  20. Phil#AC's Avatar
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       #100  
    Oh, there's definitely something to be said for keeping things closer to the chest. For as many advantages as there are to have multiple devices, there are as many challenges.

    I'd dare say Android is a little more fractured right now. Windows Mobile 6.0 and 6.1 apps generally will work on 6.5 phones. But when you get into the different Android versions, it's a crapshoot.

    Quote Originally Posted by ripcity00 View Post
    I'm curious Phil's experiences and thoughts on WM running on multiple platforms similar to what Android is doing now - pros/cons. One advantage PALM has is tighter control of the entire integrated software/hardware experience.
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