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  1. #21  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman
    Toby, what's wrong with an OS taking time to learn how to use?
    Nothing really, per se. The problem, again, is with the assumption that it _must_ take time to learn to use if it's any 'good'.
    It took me a day or two to learn to fully use my iPAQ, and for the extra features PPC 2002 gives you, it's well worth it.
    It may very well be for you, but I've seen no feature (or group of features) that would make it worth my time yet. Of course, I also loathe the expansion options for the same reason that I loathe the expansion options on my current PDA.
    And as for MacOS, yes it's a great OS, but I use XP Pro, I just can't stand the extra cost of Mac's and the extra time it takes for software to be made available.
    Actually, the new iMacs are quite cost competitive with PCs. When I priced out a comparable consumer Dell a few weeks ago, the Dell was actually slightly more (although I'd consider the <$50 difference ignorable if price was the only consideration). Also, the extra cost associated with my switching to XP Pro (Barely any of my hardware is 'supported' although it's all only a few years old) makes it not even a feasible option for me.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. mhc48#CB's Avatar
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    #22  
    Originally posted by Toby
    It may very well be for you, but I've seen no feature (or group of features) that would make it worth my time yet.
    Which is very fortunate, because even minimal exposure to some of those newfangled features almost certainly increases the risk of catching both cancer and syphillis. Do you know it's been shown that the mere sight of some of those lurid features has driven some poor misguided souls to actually use them? (Not our kind, mind you -- the lower sort). They become so intoxicated with the power and sheer pleasure, they think nothing about risking their health or their souls.

    Far wiser and safer to stick with the features we already have. If God had wanted us to be able to play music or high quality video on our pda's, She would have given them to us already. I mean, can you imagine there are some people who actually consider looking at dials or pulling levers -- learning how to drive an "automobile" to get into town when we already have the horse?
    -Michael-
  3. #23  


    Let's start with the presumption that PPC has an advantage over Palm analogous to the advantage an automobile has over a horse. Whereas an automobile has the ability to drastically reduce time in transit and increase comfort, PPC's not-as-intuitive interface and code bloat decrease both the amount of time to do basic PIM as well as ease of use. I'm also curious to know what you've been using if a PPC has "high quality video and music." Been playing with crayons while humming to yourself? With all this din about PPC's ability to do video, that 3" screen must have an incredible ability to immerse oneself in the action. "Does that man have a second head or do I have a stuck pixel?" I can see the fascination.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  4. #24  
    Shampoo is better. I go on first and clean the hair...Conditioner is better i leave the hair sily and smooth. Oh really fool? Really!
    Apples!
    Oranges!
  5. #25  
    Originally posted by MHCohn
    Which is very fortunate, because even minimal exposure to some of those newfangled features almost certainly increases the risk of catching both cancer and syphillis. Do you know it's been shown that the mere sight of some of those lurid features has driven some poor misguided souls to actually use them? (Not our kind, mind you -- the lower sort). They become so intoxicated with the power and sheer pleasure, they think nothing about risking their health or their souls.
    Not sure _what_ you're on about here. Why don't you try addressing a feature that you might consider worthy of spending time learning to get past the interface? Are there none?
    Far wiser and safer to stick with the features we already have. If God had wanted us to be able to play music or high quality video on our pda's, She would have given them to us already.
    Cute...but still not at all what I'm talking about. If you want your PDA to play music and videos, that's fine. If costs/design issues allow me to have an inexpensive PDA that meets the function of a PDA, allows those multimedia functions, and doesn't put them in the way of the essential functions, bonus.
    I mean, can you imagine there are some people who actually consider looking at dials or pulling levers -- learning how to drive an "automobile" to get into town when we already have the horse?
    I see that instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, you prefer to make straw man arguments. A properly designed automobile _would_ have a motivating factor over a horse. A better analogy here would be a Honda Accord versus a poorly laid out uber-sports car. Sure the sports car might blow the doors off the Accord in all out speed, but if the controls and instrument displays are only accessible by opening the glove compartment, what good is it? Again, I'm not saying that 'more power' = 'bad'. I'm saying that 'more power' does not _have_ to = 'more complicated'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. mhc48#CB's Avatar
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    #26  
    I guess if you really have a problem figuring out the PPC interface, then there's not much to say...you're right. Stick with the technology you're comfortable with. I hope, though, you've done more than play with a new PPC at CompUSA or for a few minutes at your friend's desk before coming to that conclusion.

    If you adamantly don't want even the possibility on a trip or commute to listen to mp3s or audible books without having to carry another gadget with you, then you're right again, don't look at technology that can also do that.

    If you really are sure that you are willing to accept a device which gives you the choice of either one module or extra extra storage but not both, and only one format for expansion devices, then stay with what you've got (knowing, of course that HS plans to make your investment in modules worthless [I've got 5 by the way]).

    If you never play games on your handheld, and haven't seen and heard some of the new PPC games, then I fully understand why you're happy with what you've got.

    If you were to look over prior posts of mine during the past year, you'd see that for a long time I had an iPaq and never used it. I disdained the iPaq and WinCE as much as or more than anyone here. Right now, in fact, I still use and love my Prism, and find it superior to the iPaq in many respects. But those are becoming fewer and fewer. Neither my prior satisfaction with the Visor (I've bought 3) nor any misplaced love of or hate for one company or another makes me blind to the advances that have been made with the PPC OS and its capabilities. The simple fact is that that platform -- both in hardware and software -- has been and seems to continue to grow and improve, and has a definite direction for the future. I can't say that for HS or Palm. They both seem floundering and simply have not offered or seem like they will soon offer anything to excite my interest or expand my capabilities. In short, nothing I really wanna go out and buy. My interest in the PPC does not (by any means) come from cheering for one side or against another. It's simply because of what I see they can do and what I see them doing in the forseeable future.

    What I'm saying is, I don't care (for the purposes of this discussion) who "wins". But if you are going to talk about them, take a look at them objectively TODAY. They are pretty exciting and capable, something which my Prism was -- a year ago -- but which a monochrome non-expandable, keyboard only, phone unit isn't.
    -Michael-
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by MHCohn
    I guess if you really have a problem figuring out the PPC interface, then there's not much to say...you're right.
    No, you're missing the point still. I don't have a problem figuring out the PPC interface. I just find it to be a bit cumbersome in general for the task at hand. Regardless, I was never speaking about PPC specifically _at_all_. I was speaking about the assumption that 'more features' = 'more complicated interface'.
    Stick with the technology you're comfortable with. I hope, though, you've done more than play with a new PPC at CompUSA or for a few minutes at your friend's desk before coming to that conclusion.
    Why would you care? I'm not bothered by someone else preferring PPC.
    If you adamantly don't want even the possibility on a trip or commute to listen to mp3s or audible books without having to carry another gadget with you, then you're right again, don't look at technology that can also do that.
    So, those are the only advantages that make PPC worth overcoming the interface? On my commutes, I'm driving in a vehicle which has a CD player. I don't have any MP3s, nor do I care to rip any. I consider CDs at the threshold of my listening enjoyment anyway.
    If you really are sure that you are willing to accept a device which gives you the choice of either one module or extra extra storage but not both, and only one format for expansion devices, then stay with what you've got (knowing, of course that HS plans to make your investment in modules worthless [I've got 5 by the way]).
    What makes you think I'm even considering Handspring for my next PDA? Regardless of which platform I settle upon, I can pretty much guarantee that CF and SD slots are going to be present.
    If you never play games on your handheld, and haven't seen and heard some of the new PPC games, then I fully understand why you're happy with what you've got.
    I never play computer games period. The last electronic game I played was Mortal Combat on a Genesis. The last computer game I played was The 11th Hour. I get more enjoyment out of real world games (which is ironic on some levels).
    If you were to look over prior posts of mine during the past year, you'd see that for a long time I had an iPaq and never used it.
    And if you were to look over prior posts of mine during the past year, you'd see that I'm currently considering all of my options for my next PDA, including PocketPC.
    I disdained the iPaq and WinCE as much as or more than anyone here.
    That's what's funny. I'm not disdaining the iPaq or PocketPC necessarily. I'm not likely to get an iPaq due to its sled requirement for expansion, but I've not ruled out PocketPC as a platform yet. It's simply not my most likely choice at the moment.
    Right now, in fact, I still use and love my Prism, and find it superior to the iPaq in many respects. But those are becoming fewer and fewer. Neither my prior satisfaction with the Visor (I've bought 3) nor any misplaced love of or hate for one company or another makes me blind to the advances that have been made with the PPC OS and its capabilities. The simple fact is that that platform -- both in hardware and software -- has been and seems to continue to grow and improve, and has a definite direction for the future. I can't say that for HS or Palm. They both seem floundering and simply have not offered or seem like they will soon offer anything to excite my interest or expand my capabilities. In short, nothing I really wanna go out and buy. My interest in the PPC does not (by any means) come from cheering for one side or against another. It's simply because of what I see they can do and what I see them doing in the forseeable future.
    Quite honestly, neither of them 'excite' me at the moment. I'm curious if PalmOS 5 will be implemented elegantly or is just going to kludge PocketPC stuff onto the PalmOS, but that's about as close to 'excitement' as I'm going to get. Ultimately, if Handera put out a color SuperVZ based device with a decent color QVGA implementation, 4-8MB of ROM and >=16MB of RAM for <$500 this summer, I'd probably get that. Otherwise, I'll just keep my ears open until Christmas and reevaulate the situation then.
    What I'm saying is, I don't care (for the purposes of this discussion) who "wins". But if you are going to talk about them, take a look at them objectively TODAY. They are pretty exciting and capable, something which my Prism was -- a year ago -- but which a monochrome non-expandable, keyboard only, phone unit isn't.
    I am taking a look at them objectively today, just as I took a look at the options objectively when I replaced my E-11 with a Visor Deluxe.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. mhc48#CB's Avatar
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    #28  
    Originally posted by Toby
    I was never speaking about PPC specifically _at_all_.
    Hmmm... my mistake. I thought it was implicit in your posts.

    If you get a chance to try it fairly I don't think you'll really find the present PPC OS more complicated... merely different from the Palm OS. (Certainly learning it was easier than learning Graffitti was.)

    By the way, though, the iPaq and other PPCs don't require sleds for expansion. The iPaq (which would not be my top choice) has a built in SD slot, HP has built-in CF and the Toshiba/Audio Vox and Casio have both slots built-in, all without sleds. The last two of those offer the ability to use both type of slots at the same time, meaning extra storage+modem or camera or connectivity or gps.

    I wish I were more optimistic (or as optimistic as you are) about Palm OS 5. Nothing I've read or heard from developer friends leads me to believe they will even go as far as kludging already existant PPC stuff into it.

    Hope you find something you like before Christmas
    -Michael-
  9. #29  
    Originally posted by MHCohn
    Hmmm... my mistake. I thought it was implicit in your posts.
    Not that I can see.
    If you get a chance to try it fairly I don't think you'll really find the present PPC OS more complicated...
    I don't think we'd be able to agree on a definition of 'try it fairly' since yours would seem to require some capital outlay.
    merely different from the Palm OS. (Certainly learning it was easier than learning Graffitti was.)
    Not for me. Grafitti is close enough to my own block printing to have made it a matter of being usable within an hour of using it the first time. Block Recognizer would be my input of choice on the PPC for that exact reason. Its handwriting recognition is woefully inadequate IME.
    By the way, though, the iPaq and other PPCs don't require sleds for expansion.
    The iPaq certainly does for the expansion of which I speak (extending the hardware functionality). SDIO is still vaporware.
    The iPaq (which would not be my top choice) has a built in SD slot, HP has built-in CF and the Toshiba/Audio Vox and Casio have both slots built-in, all without sleds.
    Yes, and if you stop reading things into my words that aren't there, you'll notice that I didn't point to it as being a limitation of any others besides the iPaq (since all the others have CF built in).
    The last two of those offer the ability to use both type of slots at the same time, meaning extra storage+modem or camera or connectivity or gps.
    The HP is the current PPC front-runner AFAIC at this point (from an overall standpoint).
    I wish I were more optimistic (or as optimistic as you are) about Palm OS 5.
    What gives you the impression that I'm optimistic about it?
    Nothing I've read or heard from developer friends leads me to believe they will even go as far as kludging already existant PPC stuff into it.
    You haven't seen the laundry list of stuff from PalmSource then? Multimedia, etc.?
    Hope you find something you like before Christmas
    Me too, but I'm not in a hurry. The more money that I spend on a device, the longer I expect it to serve a useful purpose. I'm not into the technology hamster wheel either (yet another techno-geek mindset that I loathe).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #30  
    LOL...anyway guys...

    PPC is a pretty 'cool' OS and the hardware is great, as well as the feature set. However, it doesn't have the reliability that PalmOS PDAs give me. I'm a high school student, and I don't have much money. I can't waste my money and invest in a PPC to find it doesn't work well with me. I KNOW PalmOS works for me, and it works great. No question whatsoever. The iPAQ was the first handheld I ever wanted, but it just flopped for me. It's not there, and it doesn't come close to satisfying my needs. When I feel PPC reaches a point where my investment in it is safe, I may go for it! We'll all find out where we'll be once PalmOS 5 releases...

    I used to use a WinCE Handheld PC device, so I'm familiar with both OS interfaces. WinCE was harder than PPC now, so I can USE them both. PPC just takes too much effort, too many clicks, and its just too large in size. I don't really like to think when I'm using my PDA, lol, it's suppose to think for me...
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
  11. #31  
    MHCohn, I believe you are attributing my attitude upon Toby.

    So, to get started, I don't deny I am loathe to line Gates' pockets (hence running linux and mac on the two computers at home). PPC's inability to sync with linux is also part of my reason not to purchase a PPC. But to address the issues you mistakenly addressed to Toby:
    I guess if you really have a problem figuring out the PPC interface...
    My problem lies with MS's apparent attitude of arrogance that they can't be bothered with making a daily tool as easy to use as possible. Trying to take the stance that this is indicitive of my level of intelligence will turn this ugly real quick.
    If you adamantly don't want even the possibility on a trip or commute to listen to mp3s or audible books without having to carry another gadget with you
    Those are both options for the PalmOS. Trying to make it sound like you can only get it with PPC is ridiculous. Care to try again?
    If you really are sure that you are willing to accept a device which gives you the choice of either one module or extra extra storage but not both, and only one format for expansion devices
    Again, options available to the Palm OS. How about another go?
    If you never play games on your handheld, and haven't seen and heard some of the new PPC games
    Once again, your argument is less than ****-poor. I play backgammon and solitare of one flavor or another, and that's only because computer gaming doesn't intrigue me. Try doing a search for games at PalmGear and then try to pass off that you need a PPC in order to have a glorified gameboy.
    but which a monochrome non-expandable, keyboard only, phone unit isn't.
    Who mentioned the treo? Your arguments are based entirely on non-truths and false assumptions. Try reading for comprehension.
    The last two of those offer the ability to use both type of slots at the same time, meaning extra storage+modem or camera or connectivity or gps.
    Again, options available to the PalmOS. Sounding familiar?
    merely different from the Palm OS.
    So, reading my post on the first page (the one where I state, "Regardless, this argument is cliche and, in civilized debate, reduces to admonishments to purchase a device that suits one's needs"), you would agree, making the entirety of your loquacity all but pointless?
    Last edited by dick-richardson; 02/27/2002 at 09:20 PM.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  12. #32  
    Wow ****, pretty harsh post wasn't that?

    First off, PPC isn't that hard to use, and for something with so many features, the interface isn't that bad. Windows CE 1 and 2 were, to tell the truth, completely horrible. Win CE 3 and 3.1 are much better, and just about anyone can figure them out without too much trouble.

    Also, despite the fact that you can listen to MP3's on a Palm, you have many more options to do this on a PPC, such as WMA8, and various equalizer problems. And while the Handera does give you two expansion options, it has neither color nor the ability to listen to MP3 or WMA files.

    As for gaming, if you like to play games (not for everyone, but some people like them,) than PPC has Palm beat easily, Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein, NES, SNES, Genesis, Gameboy emulators, PPC beats Palm hands down.

    Overall, Palm isn't a bad platform in the least, Palm's are reliable handhelds that generally get the job done, but if you're a power user, PPC is Generally better.
  13. #33  
    APPLES!

    ORANGES!
  14. #34  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman
    Wow ****, pretty harsh post wasn't that?
    I don't think so. I'm not pissed, and I wasn't attacking personally. The arguments are bunk. Period.

    First off, PPC isn't that hard to use, and for something with so many features, the interface isn't that bad. Windows CE 1 and 2 were, to tell the truth, completely horrible. Win CE 3 and 3.1 are much better, and just about anyone can figure them out without too much trouble.
    I do not deny that PPC has gotten better. I simply deny that it's the best MS could offer.

    Also, despite the fact that you can listen to MP3's on a Palm, you have many more options to do this on a PPC, such as WMA8, and various equalizer problems. And while the Handera does give you two expansion options, it has neither color nor the ability to listen to MP3 or WMA files.
    True, and to get all that with one Palm would push the price to those of PPC where, I have little doubt, Palm would get spanked. But that does highlight one advantage Palm has always had. The very large, low end of the market.

    As for gaming, if you like to play games (not for everyone, but some people like them,) than PPC has Palm beat easily, Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein, NES, SNES, Genesis, Gameboy emulators, PPC beats Palm hands down.
    Again, I don't deny that. I merely made it clear that for light gaming, the Palm is just fine - as opposed to the insinuation that Palm can't do any gaming.

    Overall, Palm isn't a bad platform in the least, Palm's are reliable handhelds that generally get the job done, but if you're a power user, PPC is Generally better.
    That depends on what your power using needs are. Palm has an edge in PIM, wordprocessing, spreadsheets, etc. are the reviewers to be believed. Even networking, while not as versatile, is a lot easier with the Palm OS.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  15. #35  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman
    As for gaming, if you like to play games (not for everyone, but some people like them,) than PPC has Palm beat easily, Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein, NES, SNES, Genesis, Gameboy emulators, PPC beats Palm hands down.

    Overall, Palm isn't a bad platform in the least, Palm's are reliable handhelds that generally get the job done, but if you're a power user, PPC is Generally better.
    It also depends on your gaming needs. For me, I like playing games, but PPC just don't and can't work for me. I will occasionaly break out the palm to play a game of battle fleet, or dopewars, bigtwo, or spacewar. Those are games I can easily pause, and not have to tie up my attention to. I can't be playing Doom, or Quake in class. And I do happen to like Quake and StarCraft, but please...I play those at home! I'm saying, most people that play games play to kill a little time here and there when they're bored, and have nothing better to do. I wouldn't buy a PDA as a gaming machine. Get a XBox, or PS2, or GameCube, or a nice PC. They serve better.

    However, there are always those hard core gamers too...maybe you're one. People who just can't get away from your games. You wanna be playing them where ever you might be. That's fine, then PPC is the way to go. Could also get a laptop Bottom line, I don't think games are a big factor in why someone would choose PPC over PalmOS. They both work, and PalmOS works better in many respects.
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
  16. #36  
    Originally posted by dietrichbohn
    APPLES!



    ORANGES!
    You keep making my point for me, and, while I appreciate it, I think that between the two of us the poor gents here have been flogged with it enough for the evening.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  17. #37  
    I liked the shampoo-conditioner comparison better. My iMac and my Prism better too
  18. mhc48#CB's Avatar
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    #38  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    you would agree, making the entirety of your loquacity all but pointless?
    Perhaps, but only if you would provide some concrete examples of Palm OS units that have the options which you claim "are available"

    mp3s and audiible books?? With no attachments?
    Name the unit. And the price. Top model Clie has mp3s, but no audible books and what's the largest memory stick on store shelves. And the price of the unit and stick?


    Which Palm model allows you to use one type of storage and a module (gps, mp3. camera, modem etc) at the same time? Handera? What is available? Have you actually tried it?

    Name the game that looks better on Palm OS than PPC. Zap 2016? Pixilated!

    Now for the washer dryer, the range the refrigerator and everything behind Door #3:

    Name the one Palm unit that does all of those...

    Ten seconds....

    Five.....

    Two....

    Buzzz! Time's up.

    Sorry, next contestant.

    Geez. Not that any of that makes a damn bit of difference. But if you're going to compose a snotty answer, at least have the facts.

    Oh well, at least you volunteered the fact that it was you, not Toby, with the juvenile attitude.
    Last edited by MHCohn; 02/27/2002 at 10:52 PM.
    -Michael-
  19. #39  
    Originally posted by MHCohn
    ...
    Again, your arguments are less than **** poor. Make your PPC an intuitive PIM w/o using any type of 3rd party software or hardware add-ons. Run any of the myriads of PalmOS software w/o an emulator. The reason the various Palm units have the expansion is to use it, effectively bringing the end cost down because one is not paying for features they're not going to need. Pretending that code bloat is a good thing may make sense in your world, but it makes a big difference when trying to power the processor that has to wade through it. I'd also like to point out that Zap! looks anything but pixelated on the Clie or handera line. And I'd love to get back to you on the handera's ability for dual expansion when I get my wireless CF card and/or modem. Start making cogent arguments and you won't have to resort to whining about attitude.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  20. mhc48#CB's Avatar
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    #40  
    Originally posted by AzNCoMpUtAnErD
    I wouldn't buy a PDA as a gaming machine.... Bottom line, I don't think games are a big factor in why someone would choose PPC over PalmOS. They both work, and PalmOS works better in many respects.
    I agree with you on both points. But once you get the PPC for it's normal uses (PIM, Outlook sync etc), it just becomes very quickly apparent that the games you played on your Palm are simply better on the PPC. And it's not just the looks and sound, the faster processor and ROM make more possible.

    BTW, I don't play games like Doom or Quake on my PPC or my PC. I'm talking about the versions of Bejeweled, Bubbelet, Scrabble and my current favorite, an incredible rendition of Pinball

    Same for the audio capabilities. I wouldn't get the PPC just for that, but now that I have it, I can listen to my choice of two or three whole Audible audio books, not just 2 hr 16mg segments of one. And have mp3s at the same time.

    True, I didn't and wouldn't have bought it for those things, but once you have them and see what is possible, it's very hard to live without. Like trying to go back to a monochrome 8mg Visor Deluxe after having a Prism with a 128k memplug. Yes, possible in an emergency, but why would you want to?
    -Michael-
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