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  1. #21  
    Originally posted by foo fighter

    No. OS 5 is merely a port of OS 4 for ARM. Palm has stated they will gradually roll technologies from BeOS into the Palm platform. But OS 5 will "look" like OS 4, and the PIM applications will remain unchanged as well.
    Rats, it looks like most of my predictions for OS 5 came true. I was really hoping I'd be wrong.

    While sticking with the old APIs will make it easy to port existing apps to OS 5, it's going to really discourage new development. Developing for PalmOS is very painful. I haven't seen anything in the posted OS 5 info to indicate that much needed capabilities like reducing the burden of low-level memory management, memory mapped files (or any support for virtual memory for that matter), Unicode support, etc., will make it into OS 5.

    Support for 320x320 displays? Uh, doesn't Sony already have that API? I'm beginning to think that Sony is doing more PalmOS development than Palm (Sony also created the VFS API). Multi-threading is good, but the lack wasn't a showstopper for most apps (or most users). Multi-media is nice, but that's more of a hardware issue than an OS issue. So what does the new OS gain anyone (aside from the ability to run apps that were already pretty fast even faster)?

    I fear that developers looking to write more sophisticated powerful apps that can really take advantage of the additional CPU power, are going to think long and hard about whether it's really worth the pain and suffering to target OS 5. PocketPC has plenty of shortcomings, but it's a whole lot easier to write robust complex apps for that platform than for any flavor of PalmOS.

    Perhaps the next major release of PalmOS (6?) will bring the kind of improvements that are needed to entice developers. But how far behind the other PDA operating systems will Palm be by the time that happens? And how well will more expensive ARM based PalmOS devices sell if the new OS doesn't bring a lot of tangible benefits? I guess time will tell, but I for one am not optimistic.
    <ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
  2. #22  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Yeah, it looks like my old Casio E-11 (although it feels less brick-like due to better rounded edges). I must reiterate, though, that it looks less bad in person, IMO, than I originally thought. A black faceplate and 4MB of ROM would have been killer.
    I know. I own one. The Ugly Faerie's finest touch was was the dual psuedo-grill on the bottom. Just having holes in front of the speaker would've sufficed.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson

    I know. I own one. The Ugly Faerie's finest touch was was the dual psuedo-grill on the bottom. Just having holes in front of the speaker would've sufficed.
    I actually liked the aesthetics of some early WinCE devices. The Casio E-10/11 looked nice (especially the buttons), but it was too big, and WinCE was a disaster. Philip's Nino was another nice looking device, still too big. Early USR/3com Palm devices were ugly as hell. I hated the putty gray plastic.
  4. #24  
    By the way, at PDABuzz, Toby was kind enough to provide us with links to a screenshot of the "new" OS5...in all its glory!



    http://ascii24.com/news/i/topi/artic...75783.jpg.html
  5. #25  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    By the way, at PDABuzz, Toby was kind enough to provide us with links to a screenshot of the "new" OS5...in all its glory! [...]
    Actually, I got the link from a post here, so it was here before it was there.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #26  
    Originally posted by Toby
    so it was here before it was there.
    As well it should be.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  7. #27  
    So it appears that there is absolutely nothing different with the GUI?

    What's funny is that OS5 can already run in the PPC Palm emulator.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  8. #28  
    Originally posted by dkessler
    {Several keen observations}
    Thanks, Dave... your observations confirm much of what I thought I was reading between the lines when I read the summary of OS 5.0 posted on PalmInfoCenter.

    Basically, PalmSource says, "Look at us! We've released Palm OS 5.0 early!" Except isn't Palm OS 5, as described at PalmSource last year. Palm OS 5 has been reborn as Palm OS 6. ("Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.")

    The other thing that struck me is that PalmSource said the change from Palm OS 5 to OS 6 is going to be as significant (i.e., a major change to developers) as the change from OS 4.x to 5.

    My questions upon hearing that will be:
    • How many developers are just going to wait for Palm OS 6 before updating their applications?
    • How many people will buy an OS 5 PDA when OS 6 will be coming out soon after that? Or will decide to just bag it, and buy a PPC?


    Wonder how long this will take to be picked up in the trade magazines?
    Last edited by bookrats; 02/06/2002 at 05:48 PM.
    Jeff Meyer

    "And he died like he lived: with his mouth wide open."
  9. #29  
    Most people don't buy a pda because of where development is going.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  10. #30  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    I know. I own one. The Ugly Faerie's finest touch was was the dual psuedo-grill on the bottom. Just having holes in front of the speaker would've sufficed.
    Yeah, but the real question is 'how do your apps work?' Which apps do you have installed? Do you use Pocket Quicken? How about AvantGo?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #31  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Yeah, but the real question is 'how do your apps work?' Which apps do you have installed? Do you use Pocket Quicken? How about AvantGo?
    I love the device. I've been holding off gushing over it to make sure it's more than first impression (first impressions being there has never been a more well thought out device - nor one that needed a case as badly). Give me time to work with apps - I'm figuring out linux/pilot communication at the same time (dual booting was a no-go - Windows can't handle hardware worth a **** - I will be trying again solely for the 330). I beamed over the imperitive information from my m500 w/o a hitch, then proceeded to games. Everything works. Gammon (included w/the m500) needs a 160x160 box, as does hardball, and pocketrogue. Everything else scales nicely. I won't be able to be any help with pocket quicken as I use a spreadsheet for my accounts. AvantGo will take a day or two. Backing up is boatloads faster than a visor (under five seconds for a 1.5 MB backup), not to mention it's done on a standard memory card which can then hold other information. It's OS3.5 - so there's limited support for running programs from a card.

    For me, the test is variability and durability. I am always doing something different with my computer and my pda. I have yet to have a device last long because it's either not sturdy or versatile enough to keep up. The attention to detail is beyond anything I would've thought worth the time and effort to figure out.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  12. #32  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    For me, the test is variability and durability. I am always doing something different with my computer and my pda. I have yet to have a device last long because it's either not sturdy or versatile enough to keep up. The attention to detail is beyond anything I would've thought worth the time and effort to figure out.
    That's always been my impression.

    I thought that there was a 4.1 upgrade out... not so?
  13.    #33  
    Originally posted by dkessler

    While sticking with the old APIs will make it easy to port existing apps to OS 5, it's going to really discourage new development. Developing for PalmOS is very painful. I haven't seen anything in the posted OS 5 info to indicate that much needed capabilities like reducing the burden of low-level memory management, memory mapped files (or any support for virtual memory for that matter), Unicode support, etc., will make it into OS 5.
    Hmm, the way I read this was that they were supporting the OS4 APIs in addition to the OS5 APIs. Hopefully the OS4 APIs will just be a compatibility interface to the OS5 APIs, but only time will tell on that.


    Support for 320x320 displays? Uh, doesn't Sony already have that API? I'm beginning to think that Sony is doing more PalmOS development than Palm (Sony also created the VFS API). Multi-threading is good, but the lack wasn't a showstopper for most apps (or most users). Multi-media is nice, but that's more of a hardware issue than an OS issue. So what does the new OS gain anyone (aside from the ability to run apps that were already pretty fast even faster)?
    Maybe I'm just not seeing through the marketing hype, but this seems to indicate that the screen can be scaled to any size as long as it's a multiple of 160X160, so a 800X800 web pad wouldn't be out of the question.

    I would also have to disagree with your argument that multimedia is just a hardware issue. Without the APIs, multimedia is a bear to program. It sounds to me like PalmSource is going to be supplying the multimedia APIs with OS5 (perhaps taken from Sony, perhaps not. We'll probably never know for sure). Now, the OS isn't required to supply the APIs, but it does make it easier for the developers to have a single set of APIs instead of a dozen different third party APIs.


    I fear that developers looking to write more sophisticated powerful apps that can really take advantage of the additional CPU power, are going to think long and hard about whether it's really worth the pain and suffering to target OS 5. PocketPC has plenty of shortcomings, but it's a whole lot easier to write robust complex apps for that platform than for any flavor of PalmOS.

    Perhaps the next major release of PalmOS (6?) will bring the kind of improvements that are needed to entice developers. But how far behind the other PDA operating systems will Palm be by the time that happens? And how well will more expensive ARM based PalmOS devices sell if the new OS doesn't bring a lot of tangible benefits? I guess time will tell, but I for one am not optimistic.
    Perhaps. I admit I haven't had as much experience with developing for PalmOS that you have, but I also can't believe that PalmSource engineers can't see the writing on the wall, either. I'm willing to wait for more info before jumping to conclusions.
    It's gotta be weather balloons. It's always weather balloons. Big, fiery, exploding weather balloons.
    -- ComaVN (from Slashdot)
  14. #34  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    [...] I beamed over the imperitive information from my m500 w/o a hitch, then proceeded to games. Everything works. Gammon (included w/the m500) needs a 160x160 box, as does hardball, and pocketrogue.
    *sigh* Sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world that has no use for computer games.
    Everything else scales nicely. I won't be able to be any help with pocket quicken as I use a spreadsheet for my accounts.
    Bummer. That is most likely the app that keeps me from considering PocketPC very seriously at all (plus the fact that text entry works like crap for me and getting to applications out of the box is a royal pain).
    AvantGo will take a day or two. Backing up is boatloads faster than a visor (under five seconds for a 1.5 MB backup), not to mention it's done on a standard memory card which can then hold other information.
    Did you ever try a Memplug? Backups to CF are faster than the Backup SB as well.
    It's OS3.5 - so there's limited support for running programs from a card.
    What about with the AutoCard (or whatever AutoCF became) app?
    For me, the test is variability and durability. I am always doing something different with my computer and my pda. I have yet to have a device last long because it's either not sturdy or versatile enough to keep up. The attention to detail is beyond anything I would've thought worth the time and effort to figure out.
    Yep, the one I played with at CompUSA was sweet. I'm almost hoping that they've been in the 'skunkworks' with PalmSource all this time, and they'll be unveiling their color OS5 ARM-based Handera 357 Magnum PDA at PCExpo. Wishful thinking, but... *shrug*
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #35  
    Originally posted by dietrichbohn
    That's always been my impression.
    What has? Didn't they learn you real good about them fuzzy pronouns?

    I thought that there was a 4.1 upgrade out... not so?
    I believe so. OS4 doesn't interest me until it's supported in linux, so I have not checked.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  16. #36  
    There are some pithy articles pointing out the flaws in Palm's approach at

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/23952.html

    and

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23955.html
  17. #37  
    Originally posted by dietrichbohn
    [...] I thought that there was a 4.1 upgrade out... not so?
    In the works. Not GA yet.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #38  
    Originally posted by Toby
    *sigh* Sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world that has no use for computer games.
    My interest has waned, but I will always need a diversion handy. My wife talks a lot.
    Bummer. That is most likely the app that keeps me from considering PocketPC very seriously at all...
    I can't stand Quicken. It limits my syncing options .
    Did you ever try a Memplug? Backups to CF are faster than the Backup SB as well.
    Never did the Memplug thing. Never realized I had a need for it (rather like the need I didn't realize I have for voice recording).
    What about with the AutoCard (or whatever AutoCF became) app?
    It didn't come installed on my unit. As soon as I get linux syncronization working, I'll let you know.
    Yep, the one I played with at CompUSA was sweet. I'm almost hoping that they've been in the 'skunkworks' with PalmSource all this time, and they'll be unveiling their color OS5 ARM-based Handera 357 Magnum PDA at PCExpo. Wishful thinking, but... *shrug*
    I, on the other hand, do not wish to purchase another Palm Pilot for many moons.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  19. #39  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    Most people don't buy a pda because of where development is going.
    Yup, but they may refrain from buying a PDA when they're told that it won't run new software a year after they buy it.

    I sure wouldn't want to buy a Palm OS 5 device whose didn't have the OS in Flash ROM (ala HandSpring).
    Jeff Meyer

    "And he died like he lived: with his mouth wide open."
  20. #40  
    Originally posted by bookrats
    Yup, but they may refrain from buying a PDA when they're told that it won't run new software a year after they buy it.
    And look at all those outdated visor products that haven't been able to run any new software for a year. Flashing the RAM is a very limited upgrade.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
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