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  1. stockh's Avatar
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       #1  
    Now I'm getting a little concerned about the performance of the pre. If what I read is true, the pre seems "sluggish" compared to the iphone. It remains to be seen if the droid will run faster but since it's running android and motorola designed the handset, I have to assume it will run as fast if not faster than the iphone.

    I know the argument "webos is new give it time" but the competition is not standing still and now I'm afraid the droid is going to be a real consideration to the iphone or pre.

    It will be interesting what the droid's price will be offered at. If it's around $299 I think the pre's marketshare will be safe. If it comes in around $199.... the game is on.......

    COME ON PALM !!!, get webos optimized to at least "keep up" with phones of the same processor.
  2. s219's Avatar
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    #2  
    They don't all use the same processor, it's merely the same processor architecture. Within that, there are all sorts of variations. So it's not a straight apples to apples comparison on hardware, but it should be somewhat close for a given clock speed.

    On the Pre, the problems are entirely related to software. Some of the issues can be fixed. Others are limitations due to the use of javascript as the SDK language, and that stuff is always going to lag behind native code. Palm must have been aware of this compromise when they chose the webOS pathway, but they probably weren't counting on the massive performance boost the iPhone 3GS brought to the party in June.

    All the Android phones I have seen thus far, including the new Moto CLIQ, are still a little bit sluggish. None have caught up to overall iPhone 3GS performance levels yet, but it's simply a matter of time. As you say though, Apple is likely moving forward too. They have a healthy head start with OS sophistication and optimization compared to Android.
  3. #3  
    yes palm, please fix this. I expect a fix on my desk tomorrow, no later.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Well, it took Motorola almost seven years to update the Micro Tac so the Palm is comparatively way ahead of where Motorola was at this point. Palm should take its sweet time to update the Pre.

    Why would they do that? That would result in their demise.
    no 'Thanks'
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    They don't all use the same processor, it's merely the same processor architecture. Within that, there are all sorts of variations. So it's not a straight apples to apples comparison on hardware, but it should be somewhat close for a given clock speed.

    On the Pre, the problems are entirely related to software. Some of the issues can be fixed. Others are limitations due to the use of javascript as the SDK language, and that stuff is always going to lag behind native code. Palm must have been aware of this compromise when they chose the webOS pathway, but they probably weren't counting on the massive performance boost the iPhone 3GS brought to the party in June.

    All the Android phones I have seen thus far, including the new Moto CLIQ, are still a little bit sluggish. None have caught up to overall iPhone 3GS performance levels yet, but it's simply a matter of time. As you say though, Apple is likely moving forward too. They have a healthy head start with OS sophistication and optimization compared to Android.
    I wish I knew what you mean by sluggish. My Hero is just as fast if not faster than most things I do on my Pre. If I'm on a call and I need to do something else, I hit the home button and I immediately have access to everything. No minimizing a card and waiting for a new one to open. Jumping back and forth between apps is just as fast because no swipe to minimize, find, open and then swipe again.
    I love the Pre but the Hero can do so much more and do it easier.
  6. stubbs's Avatar
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    #6  
    You've got to understand that the slugishness in the Pre has very little to do with the hardware. It's running an OS based on Javascript, which isn't a compiled language. The bottom line is that until/unless Palm develops something like a compiler that will take existing programs, or at least the underlying OS and convert it to native code, things will still be slow.
    Personally, I don't think it was the best decision, but it's what we've got. The upside is a system that's remarkably easy to customize and tweak, since nearly everything is stored in text files.
  7. Helidos's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by acipollo View Post
    I wish I knew what you mean by sluggish. My Hero is just as fast if not faster than most things I do on my Pre. If I'm on a call and I need to do something else, I hit the home button and I immediately have access to everything. No minimizing a card and waiting for a new one to open. Jumping back and forth between apps is just as fast because no swipe to minimize, find, open and then swipe again.
    I love the Pre but the Hero can do so much more and do it easier.
    Dragging up and using the way bar is way faster than how you are explaining you use your pre try it sometime..

    try advance gestures and the wave bar see if that doesn't make life easier on the pre
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by helidos View Post
    Dragging up and using the way bar is way faster than how you are explaining you use your pre try it sometime..

    try advance gestures and the wave bar see if that doesn't make life easier on the pre
    seconded. wave bar + full swipe gestures between apps is very handy and makes things a lot easier and faster.
  9. stockh's Avatar
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       #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Well, it took Motorola almost seven years to update the Micro Tac so the Palm is comparatively way ahead of where Motorola was at this point. Palm should take its sweet time to update the Pre.
    The competition will not take it's sweet time taking market share.

    If this is the best I can expect webos to perform due to the nature of its operating system I and everyone else is in a world of hurt.

    Forget about webos for a sec and think about using a search engine that was constantly slow or sluggish pulling up the page. Would you defend the site or go to another site that "snaps" to every page.

    I'm not asking for more apps or bells and whistles, just a smartphone that at the very minimum performs on par with what's out there.
  10. #10  
    Yes, lets follow the pattern established by Motorola. The phone company that messed up so bad that it makes the Palm dump years look like today's Apple.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by acipollo View Post
    I wish I knew what you mean by sluggish. My Hero is just as fast if not faster than most things I do on my Pre. If I'm on a call and I need to do something else, I hit the home button and I immediately have access to everything. No minimizing a card and waiting for a new one to open. Jumping back and forth between apps is just as fast because no swipe to minimize, find, open and then swipe again.
    I love the Pre but the Hero can do so much more and do it easier.
    First the sprint version of Hero is so ugly...
    2nd, Hero is not a real multi-task phone, please do some research.
    3rd, Hero is using the old processor from 2 or 3 years ago.
  12. #12  
    I definitely agree that the Pre could get faster. I'm optimistic that it will. I think using the GPU would be a large plus. There also seem to be some things going on in the background that could be sped up (databases). I would imagine that we'll continue to reap the benefits of the javascript wars by getting freshened updates of webkit. I also think there's still a large memory management upgrade to come.

    Having said that, I think the Pre is fast enough for my day-to-day needs. I don't usually think "man, why is that so slow?" though there have been a few times when I have. In general, I'm satisfied, especially after 1.2.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  13. reidme's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by bikini View Post
    First the sprint version of Hero is so ugly...
    2nd, Hero is not a real multi-task phone, please do some research.
    3rd, Hero is using the old processor from 2 or 3 years ago.
    Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
  14. #14  
    Until the GPU is utilized, the "slight" sluggishness sometimes happens on the Pre will remain.

    To be honest....its never really bothered me all too much...i learned to leave my most used apps open (messaging, email, phone) and i never have to wait for those to open up anymore.

    But yeah, it has to be the GPU i'd imagine. The ZuneHD with Tegra is simply the most responsive touch screen i've used and i'd imagine the GPU has something to do with that.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by stubbs View Post
    You've got to understand that the sluggishness in the Pre has very little to do with the hardware. It's running an OS based on Javascript, which isn't a compiled language. The bottom line is that until/unless Palm develops something like a compiler that will take existing programs, or at least the underlying OS and convert it to native code, things will still be slow.
    Personally, I don't think it was the best decision, but it's what we've got. The upside is a system that's remarkably easy to customize and tweak, since nearly everything is stored in text files.
    palm probably chose javascript because they saw how big of a hit the iPhone is with all their apps, so they figured, "hey if we could get apps well be popular too" easier to create apps = more apps = more popularity. idk might've been at least 1 factor in choosing it. unless Jon Rubinstein is trying to sabotage palm so the iPhone wins in the end :-P
  16. reidme's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by cnote1287 View Post
    palm probably chose javascript because they saw how big of a hit the iPhone is with all their apps, so they figured, "hey if we could get apps well be popular too" easier to create apps = more apps = more popularity. idk might've been at least 1 factor in choosing it. unless Jon Rubinstein is trying to sabotage palm so the iPhone wins in the end :-P
    I agree that was their thinking, but I think it was flawed in another way also. WebOS makes developing apps somewhat easier for web developers, but not necessarily for application developers who are used to C++. Which crowd should they be courting?
  17. Xyg
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by reidme View Post
    I agree that was their thinking, but I think it was flawed in another way also. WebOS makes developing apps somewhat easier for web developers, but not necessarily for application developers who are used to C++. Which crowd should they be courting?
    Even C++ developers need to make adjustments for the Objective-C required for iPhone development. If those developers can adjust for that programming language change, I bet they can handle brushing up on their JavaScript.
  18. Xyg
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain Mantis View Post
    Until the GPU is utilized, the "slight" sluggishness sometimes happens on the Pre will remain.

    To be honest....its never really bothered me all too much...i learned to leave my most used apps open (messaging, email, phone) and i never have to wait for those to open up anymore.

    But yeah, it has to be the GPU i'd imagine. The ZuneHD with Tegra is simply the most responsive touch screen i've used and i'd imagine the GPU has something to do with that.
    And beyond that, much of the perceived sluggishness of the Pre has to do with memory management:

    Memory management (aka Garbage Collection). WebOS is allows users to run multiple apps at once. Users beg for multitasking. You think it impacts game performance? Absolutely. Even if every app behaves nicely, they all consume memory. Memory management is handled by the OS without any direct say of the individual applications. Whenever the OS decides, it does a Garbage Collection. Currently, this takes about 300ms (about a third of a second).
    See Acceleroto's blog post here.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    Even C++ developers need to make adjustments for the Objective-C required for iPhone development. If those developers can adjust for that programming language change, I bet they can handle brushing up on their JavaScript.
    I am a C++ developer, so I am speaking from personal experience.

    Although you are right in the sense that someone who knows C++ has to make adjustments to work with Objective-C, the adjustments are not really that major. Most of it is syntax related, and rest of it works pretty much the same (I am not saying there are no differences, I am just saying the concepts are pretty similar). I have said since day 1 of working with objective-C, that objective-C seems to be an object-oriented C.

    Now with JavaScript and HTML, you have to find a way to work with less powerful languages. I am not trying to imply that JavaScript and HTML are not powerful, but compared to Java or C++, they are definitely less powerful. I have only done very little work with HTML (I am a software developer, not a web developer), but at least as far as I know, it is not possible to create objects in HTML. I have never worked with JavaScript (hopefully someone can shed some light on this), but can you make objects in JavaScript?

    (just to clarify, an "object" is an abstract term used in software development. In other words, creating a circle is not creating an object, but creating a circle class is creating an object (obviously this requires you substantiate it). I realize this probably makes no sense to non-developers.)
  20. #20  
    Ahhh interesting. That explains scrolling lag in the launcher.
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