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  1. s219's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by cnote1287 View Post
    palm probably chose javascript because they saw how big of a hit the iPhone is with all their apps, so they figured, "hey if we could get apps well be popular too" easier to create apps = more apps = more popularity. idk might've been at least 1 factor in choosing it. unless Jon Rubinstein is trying to sabotage palm so the iPhone wins in the end :-P
    The problem with this approach is that you simply cannot develop apps with the same level of sophistication and performance using Palm's chosen approach. What makes apps so popular on the iPhone is not the quantity, in fact, a large majority of the apps aren't great. It's the quality, power, sophistication, and performance of the very best apps that sucks people in. Unless Palm goes for a native SDK, you just can't do that kind of stuff on the webOS.
  2. s219's Avatar
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    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    A GPU is designed to run COMPILED code super fast and efficiently. The Pre doesn't use compiled code, so trying to utilize the GPU is kind of pointless. It likely is not going to run javascript any faster.

    They can keep optimizing the javascript engine on the pre to be faster, but there is not going to be a magical breakthrough or switch with the GPU that suddenly leaps WebOS forward in performance.
    First, bear in mind that the GPU's interface is OpenGL ES; it's not just a matter of compiled code, it has to be code that interfaces with the GPU using OpenGL instructions.

    When webGL comes along next year, javascript code will be able to generate rendering commands that eventually make their way to the GPU as OpenGL instructions. The main benefit is that these rendering commands won't be burdening the CPU anymore, and they will be carried out by hardware rather than software. Javascript will still be a bottleneck, but we should see a tremendous boost in performance if Palm can make good use of webGL and the GPU. The thing is, it's totally dependent on Palm doing a good implementation, and I am not fully optimistic they can pull it off.

    If Palm had gone the C++ route, they would have had/have a MUCH bigger uphill battle for getting apps in their app catalog. Sure, C++ can do many more cool things, but it also takes a lot more work which = a lot more money which = most app developers out there would take a "wait and see" approach to the Pre.
    I think it's the exact opposite; some of my iPhone apps aren't even possible on the webOS right now, or would require a big porting effort with a lot of compromise. Had Palm released a native SDK with some flavor of C/Obj-C/C++, many iPhone apps could probably have been ported with minimal work. At the same time, Palm would have been attracting some of the best apps and devs in the business. Heck, they could have used Obj-C directly if they really wanted to attract iPhone developers.
  3. s219's Avatar
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by stockh View Post
    I've read somewhere that Palm put 2 supposed gurus of javascript on the payroll to help development on the webos platform. I've got to believe (at least I hope) their looking at optimizing webos.
    Nothing against those guys, but they are essentially web app evangelists, and their focus is trying to get developers to drink the web app kool-aid and advance developer relations. They are not the people you'd want optimizing the OS.

    What they are doing is advocating Palm's current push for web app development. Which is fine for folks who believe in that, but my personal preference would be to have a good, powerful native SDK. If nothing else, that should be an option.

    Apple allows web app development on the iPhone, and as of OS 3 it's possible to make some pretty sophisticated offline web apps. Very few developers take this approach, but at least they offer both web and native SDK approaches.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Have to disagree almost entirely on this one. If the OS itself uses the GPU, it would help quite a bit. All of the screen redraws and scrolling and that sort of stuff is currently done in the CPU, at the same time the CPU is rendering the HTML/ Javascript. Offloading those things would leave the CPU to be dedicated for what it's really good at, which would be processing the HTML and Javascript in this case.

    On top of that, I suspect that Palm will never go with a full C++ based language, but you will still see a leap forward in performance. Like a desktop browser, the Pre's Javascript supports plugins. An example of this is the terminal plugin which works great for what it is. I suspect that Palm's solution will be that any intensive GPU code will be run as a plugin, with that plugin still existing within a browser window - similar to how Flash runs on a desktop PC for example. Whether this ends up being WebGL or something else of the sort remains to be seen. This is all speculation of course, but they'd be out of their mind to have spent all this time and money developing a Javascript-based OS/SDK and then abandon that a year down the line.

    And with regards to the CPU itself and just getting a faster one for future Palm devices, other than higher clocked versions of the same chip, you're not going to get anything faster than what they currently use until a few years down the line when companies start making actual hardware with the Cortex A9.

    ... Come to think of it, that should be impressive a few years down the line- imagine a fully optimized version of webOS by that time, running on a true multi-core CPU, that runs out-of-order?
    Thank you for adding this perspective. I hadn't thought of things this way until now. There still is the problem of programs being too easy to "decompile" into source in an interpreted language such as JavaScript though. I think Palm needs an ability to and manage portions of native apps (perhaps as vendor supplied services) in their Mojo framework. Such an idea might be really interesting when the value is in the service, but we still have the ability to "mash and skin" the UI to our liking (like we do in homebrew tweaks).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by wodin View Post
    <rant>
    That phone might look really nice in my purse (if I was tomboy female who both carries a purse, but still is macho-geeky enough to care about performance and power).
    </rant>
    Last edited by sudoer; 10/19/2009 at 11:53 PM. Reason: minor grammer upgrade - could still be better but I don't really care that much
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #86  
    Droid seems too big and ugly for me...doesnt look pocketable at least not in those images...
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by sbono13 View Post
    Thanks. Typing this response from a Hero rigt now. ...
    Priceless! (Hoping the typo was intentional to illustrate how effective the keyboard is. )
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. shotyme's Avatar
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    #88  
    I'm no developer or expert, but classic surely isn't using just the fabulous 3 languages (html, javascript, and css) Does it have native language support or am I missing something?
  9. sbono13's Avatar
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy View Post
    Priceless! (Hoping the typo was intentional to illustrate how effective the keyboard is. )
    Not intentional-- that post took twice as long to type as it should have. I'm very happy to be back on my Pre's keyboard. Despite any advantages in software, perceived or real, I would never consider a phone without a keyboard.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by cnote1287 View Post
    palm probably chose javascript because they saw how big of a hit the iPhone is with all their apps, so they figured, "hey if we could get apps well be popular too" easier to create apps = more apps = more popularity. idk might've been at least 1 factor in choosing it. unless Jon Rubinstein is trying to sabotage palm so the iPhone wins in the end :-P
    I don't think that's why. Jon Rubientien said the Palm Pre began in mid 2007. The same debut year as the first gen izphone. The decision was made between 07 and 08 to go Jscript which until June 08 there was no app store.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by shotyme View Post
    I'm no developer or expert, but classic surely isn't using just the fabulous 3 languages (html, javascript, and css) Does it have native language support or am I missing something?
    It is a native app.
  12. UF15's Avatar
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    It is a native app.
    What is it written in?

    What is the calendar app written in?
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    The problem with this approach is that you simply cannot develop apps with the same level of sophistication and performance using Palm's chosen approach. What makes apps so popular on the iPhone is not the quantity, in fact, a large majority of the apps aren't great. It's the quality, power, sophistication, and performance of the very best apps that sucks people in. Unless Palm goes for a native SDK, you just can't do that kind of stuff on the webOS.
    Agreed. I'm not optimistic that Palm is going to reverse course and release a native SDK, unfortunately.
  14. #94  
    so ive never made a program, but is javascript just not capable of making things as awesome as programs written in C?
  15. shotyme's Avatar
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    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    It is a native app.
    So is Palm giving some developers the ability to make native apps like it did with the classic app? Or do yo think they are waiting for the right time to give all developers that ability?

    What language is Classic written in? Anyone know?
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by deihmos View Post
    I can look at that phone and tell you it is either 65K or 262K which is basically the standard among the vast majority of smart phones. The colors look all washed out just like the HTC Hero. Android presently only supports 65K color depth just like windows mobile so there is no point in placing a higher quality display.
    According to this link, "Droid delivers Web pages, 3D graphics and videos up to two-times faster than other devices, in beautiful 16-million color high-definition."

    Droid €“ the First Motorola Android-based Phone | High Tech Lounge

    How accurate that link is, I have no idea, just came across it today.

    EDIT: Also, this is Android 2.0 so maybe the 65K support got raised?
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by cnote1287 View Post
    so ive never made a program, but is javascript just not capable of making things as awesome as programs written in C?
    Not even close.
  18. #98  
    love moto。
  19. #99  
    So whats the advantage of using javascript? Good bang for the buck?

    So basicially software wise, will companies like microsoft and apple eventually smash a company like palm that is programming using javascript.

    Im not very knowledgable when it comes to programming but it kind of sucks to hear

    that its a limitation of the way palm writes software....

    what the heck
  20. #100  
    i want the se x3 xperia
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