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  1.    #1  
    2001 has been an interesting year for the PDA world.
    *May contain subjective statements focused in my opinion.

    Palm seems to have gone from steady to... well, lost.. in a year that was supposed to be a progressive one for them. Blame a dim color screen & failure to adopt Apple's "loose lips sink ships" policy.

    Handspring has gone from blooming to.... well, somewhat lost. Blame the Visor Edge, which not only was a somewhat pointless addition to the Handspring lineup (rated "dud" by a popular magazine) but was controversial in its strongest aspect: looks.

    Sony, (a company I, outside of their PDA lineup, despise) has gone from clueless to brilliant. They have not only created the most advanced Palm OS handheld feature-wise, but have arguably created the best PDA to date. No matter what you think of it, it's the first Palm OS handheld to really go head-to-head with a PocketPC. (In the monochrome world, HandEra has done the same.) After finally cracking down and buying a CLIE, I was so impressed by the ability of this handheld, that I almost stopped hating Sony! (If the cheapskates hadn't cheaped out on the already expensive Memorystick, I might have actually LIKED Sony!)

    What's funny, is that despite the fact that the Sony CLIE now has excellent Multimedia capabilities built in, Microsoft claims that the Palm OS is completely incapable of decent media, no matter what the device.

    As a matter of fact, Microsoft claims (by "claim" I mean they sugguest) the Palm OS can't do a lot of the things it can do, like view Word documents without paying extra, browse full web sites without paying extra, or even view Excel documents without paying extra. And regardless of the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of Palm OS applications, Microsoft's "Software Matters" campaign shows only the apps that come with the PDA's.

    The advertising isn't false... those are the programs that are on the Palm M505 (the one shown in the ad) , and those are the programs that come with a PocketPC. Yet they're still deceptive. One can easily download free software that equals that shown in the PocketPC. Yet does the average newbie to the PDA world really know that? They probably think upon seeing that ad: "PocketPC's can run more software that is compatible with what I use!"

    The problem is this: The M505 is a significantly lower priced PDA than the PocketPC shown to the right. The only Palm OS handheld (that isn't a Smartphone) that competes in that price range is the PEG-N760C . Granted, someone looking at an M505 may not be all to concerned about price, but they will not be expecting the same feature content as in the PocketPC on the right.

    When I went to purchase the CLIE @ h.h. gregg, they were out of stock of the PEG-N760C, and the *****-clerk behind the counter barely knew what he was talking about. He was able to recite the Microsoft ads, and point out stuff like "the PocketPC is better than the Palm because it can do a lot more, and it's like Windows..."

    Although the PocketPC should probably be compared to the CLIE in the ad, the CLIE isn't exactly the hottest selling PDA out right now.

    But how Microsoft is getting the gullible consumer to buy PocketPC's is the same way they shoved Internet Explorer, Windows Media, and Microsoft Office down people's throats: associate it with Windows. "Choose the Power of Windows, choose the PocketPC." Aside from the fact that it's sort of an oxymoron (as if Windows is anything close to powerful) , Joe CEO upon seeing that probably thinks "Hmm... Microsoft Word is the standard word Processor, IE is the standard browser, and hey, look: The PocketPC's got the little "e" logo and "w" logo... just like my PC! That MUST make it the best PDA for my needs!"

    Any Palm user will tell you Blue Nomad's Wordsmith is closer to MS Word than "Pocket Word" is, and that "Pocket Explorer" is no closer to IE than the built in Palm browser. (as seen newer PalmOS handhelds)

    And of course, the PocketPC OS isn't necessarily better than the Palm OS either. It's still clunky, but they've added more splashy graphics to make you feel productive.

    Lets say Microsoft had nothing to do with the PocketPC... that it was just PocketPC, inc , and it was developed by a start-up company. There were no references to any of the programs in Windows, (it would just be PocketPad instead of PocketWord, PocketBrowser instead of Pocket Explorer, etc.) But, they could spend the amount of advertising money Microsoft has spent.

    Would they even have existed for more than a year? Probably. But would it have caught on? Most likely not any more so than the PSION Revo. Remember, before Microsoft started to leach off of the Palm concept, Windows CE was downright stagnant.

    There are people who really like their PocketPC's. But most of the people I know who buy them buy them because of the "coolness factor." Once it has worn off, it usually collects dust.


    but after all, it's just my opinion.
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  2. #2  
    One thing to look at, to get a Palm m505, or a Clie to do anything a PPC can, you still need to buy more software, and that gets expensive. Also, it's easier to use the software on a PPC, back when I had my Visor Deluxe, I hated word processing because it was just a pain, having to convert files from one format to another was just more trouble than it was worth. On the other hand, my iPAQ doesn't need to convert, I just need to save it as an Office 2000/2002 file and I'm done.
  3. #3  
    True, but not everyone NEEDS every little thing Microsoft adds in! Did you think of that? All I need is word processing, which costs $25. PPC costs like....$400 more than my Visor Edge. And WordSmith runs very smooth. Ed it in the handheld, sync, its on the Computer. Edit it on the Computer, sync, its on the handheld. Doesn't that sound easy? And how fast can you type on your iPAQ? Without a keyboard? I can go 45 wpm with FITALY. Beat that! Maybe you can go 20 wpm with the STOLEN graffiti on the new PPC 2002's, haha.

    Sony's doing great, it's too bad my clie was stolen...I love her...
    Hey! Don't bag on the Visor Edge! It's a great little thing, I love the form factor is I LOVE how it looks. It ain't bad. The Palm V was just too much ahead . Handspring is pulling out of the market, and Palm WILL soon, so Sony will be left to meet out needs! Yay! I look forward to what Sony has up their sleeves, and I find no problem with those dropping Memory Stick prices

    As for that ad campaign, haha, I think it's funny too. It may get a few followers, but it's not gonna make a HUGE difference I mean. People will try it out, and if they find its too hard to use, they'd return it, haha. Tried to convince many of my iPAQ friends to switch. They didn't listen, but after a month, they realized my clie was better, and they gave in. Hahahaha! Too bad I don't have mine anymore...but they're all clie users now
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
  4. #4  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman
    One thing to look at, to get a Palm m505, or a Clie to do anything a PPC can, you still need to buy more software, and that gets expensive.
    That's not 100% true. To get a PalmOS device to do anything a PPC can, you may have to INSTALL more software, but not necessarily buy. No, I'm not advocating piracy, just simply stating that there are freeware or untimelimited demo alternatives out there for most of the things people claim PPC can do 'out of the box'.

    And when that's NOT the case, it still comes down to final cost. If I buy a $600 iPaq with built-in Word, Excel, IExplorer, and MediaPlayer, is that better than buying a $400 CLIE, $30 WordSmith, $30 TinySheet, $20 Blazer, and $20 TealMovie?

    What if I don't like the built-in PPC apps? Am I going to have to go out and pay more for better replacements? At least PalmOS gives me the opportunity to choose which programs I go with.

    Also, it's easier to use the software on a PPC, back when I had my Visor Deluxe, I hated word processing because it was just a pain, having to convert files from one format to another was just more trouble than it was worth. On the other hand, my iPAQ doesn't need to convert, I just need to save it as an Office 2000/2002 file and I'm done.
    This is simply a matter of taste and personal needs/preferences. I use the standalone version of Word97 that came with my PC when I bought it (so many years ago). I also use WordSmith (been using it since it came out), and to "convert" I simply use the drop down menu that WordSmith puts IN Word to save (no more trouble than 'save as', plus I only have to do it once). Then, when I sync, my file's on my Prism. Similarly, when I sync back, the file I altered on my Prism has been altered on my desktop as well. There's very little that I find "more trouble that it was worth".

    But again, it's all about personal preferences and whatnot. I actually considered going over to a PPC device. But then my step-dad got one for work. And between playing around with it and hearing the complaints that he has, I'm more than happy to be sticking to PalmOS.

    Others may not feel the same.
    -Richard Powell

    "Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."
  5. #5  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman
    ... On the other hand, my iPAQ doesn't need to convert, I just need to save it as an Office 2000/2002 file and I'm done.
    That isn't quite correct. Pocket Word does use a different file format than Word 2000/2002. As pulled from Microsoft's site:
    When you’re finished creating or edit a document, synchronize it with your desktop PC, beam it to a colleague, or send it off in e-mail. Pocket Word will automatically convert the Pocket Word file to the desktop PC file format so that others can easily read it.
    WordSmith does the same thing for me on my Prism, no muss, no fuss and less clutter.
    Sven

    If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished.
  6. #6  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman
    One thing to look at, to get a Palm m505, or a Clie to do anything a PPC can, you still need to buy more software, and that gets expensive.
    A quick look at both Palm's and Sony's websites show that most of their models include Documents-to-go Standard on a CD. I'll grant you that you still need to some add ons for some software features, but out of the box, you still have Document editing features.
    Sven

    If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished.
  7. #7  
    I have used a WinCE machine (very close to Pocket PC) for 5 years. I now have a Visor Neo.

    I paid $400 for my Velo 500, and that was after spending 3 hours searching the web for the best price. The WinCE format was nice, but the built in keyboard was SMALL. The transfer rate via serial port was slow and handwriting recognition because I have a physical disability was impossible. I had to use the keyboard at all times. I couldn't really do any notes out in the field, I had to do everything on my computer and transfer it. Even tapping the screen was a hit and miss thing. I had to recalibrate the darn thing EVERY DAY!

    I bought a Neo, for $199, a Stowaway for $79, and WordSmith for $30. Still cheaper than my Velo, and I used Graffiti for over a month before I got my Stowaway and used my Neo so much, I was changing batteries every WEEK. I was only using the Velo for maybe 15 minutes a day when I first got it, and found I was not using it for WEEKS the last year or so.

    The Velo doesn't fit in a pocket like the Neo does nor does it have as much you can do as a Pocket PC. I don't need to use Excel, and while the Velo has a built in modem, did I ever connect to the internet with it? Nope. I didn't need that. Yes, I used the built in memo function (microphone, etc), but just for quicky notes. 16 megs only held 15 minutes of memos.

    In my opinion, the Palm OS is far superior to Pocket PC and I wish I'd known about Graffiti years ago. I would have switched earlier!

    Dana
  8. #8  
    Originally posted by AzNCoMpUtAnErD
    True, but not everyone NEEDS every little thing Microsoft adds in! Did you think of that? All I need is word processing, which costs $25. PPC costs like....$400 more than my Visor Edge. And WordSmith runs very smooth. Ed it in the handheld, sync, its on the Computer. Edit it on the Computer, sync, its on the handheld. Doesn't that sound easy? And how fast can you type on your iPAQ? Without a keyboard? I can go 45 wpm with FITALY. Beat that! Maybe you can go 20 wpm with the STOLEN graffiti on the new PPC 2002's, haha.
    PocketPC's are $400 bucks more? BS! Ever go look at the latest prices on a Jornada 548, iPAQ 3635, Casio EM-500, or Casio E-125? All can be found for 300 bucks or less.

    And sdoersam, you can save files in Office 2000 format, when you first save a file, just like any file in MS office, you can pick what format you want to save in.

    Also, I'm yet to see Palm HWR in the league of Calligrapher or MS Transcriber.
  9. #9  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman


    PocketPC's are $400 bucks more? BS! Ever go look at the latest prices on a Jornada 548, iPAQ 3635, Casio EM-500, or Casio E-125? All can be found for 300 bucks or less.

    And sdoersam, you can save files in Office 2000 format, when you first save a file, just like any file in MS office, you can pick what format you want to save in.

    Also, I'm yet to see Palm HWR in the league of Calligrapher or MS Transcriber.
    The new iPaq $600, right? Since you are quoting the most expensive PalmOS (clie) why not quote the most expensive PPC? Maybe not $400 more than the clie, but up to $400 more.
  10. #10  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman

    Also, I'm yet to see Palm HWR in the league of Calligrapher or MS Transcriber.
    Palm does not use HandWriting Recognition, in the sense that it adapts to you. They use graffiti, in which case you adapt to it.

    The downfall is, you have to learn it. The updside is, you can pick up any PalmOS device and immediately begin inputting text. You have no period of time while the device learns your style. To each his own. I personally love graffiti.

    I have little experience with PPC's and text input, but somebody at Microsoft likes graffiti, because PPC2002 has it included.

    Besides, none of this has anything to do with which device is superior, it has to do with what you prefer to use.
    Last edited by GSR13; 01/21/2002 at 09:31 PM.
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by Thunderbird291


    The new iPaq $600, right? Since you are quoting the most expensive PalmOS (clie) why not quote the most expensive PPC? Maybe not $400 more than the clie, but up to $400 more.
    Actually, the iPaq 3870 is going for $649.00. It does have built-in BlueTooth though.

    The most expensive PalmOS device is the CLIE760 and that runs $449.00.

    Please understand, both prices are Retail and I am sure could be found cheaper.

    Unfortunately, it is not really a fair comparison. The iPaq does have BlueTooth and a built-in VoiceRecorder. Not to mention, it has a 32MB ROM and 64MB of RAM. Money wise, I would assume those chips to be more expensive.

    It all comes down to personal preference anyway.
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2
  12. #12  
    Originally posted by b1lanceman
    PocketPC's are $400 bucks more? BS! Ever go look at the latest prices on a Jornada 548, iPAQ 3635, Casio EM-500, or Casio E-125? All can be found for 300 bucks or less.

    And sdoersam, you can save files in Office 2000 format, when you first save a file, just like any file in MS office, you can pick what format you want to save in.

    Also, I'm yet to see Palm HWR in the league of Calligrapher or MS Transcriber.
    LOL, well, I got my Visor Edge for about $200, and a iPAQ 3800 is $600. 600 - 200 = 400 . If you wanna compare to the "low-end" PPCs to the "low-end" Palms, then it be like $200 difference. m100 is $99, those are $300. Plus those old models suck! With the exception of the iPAQ 3600.
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by GSR13
    Actually, the iPaq 3870 is going for $649.00. It does have built-in BlueTooth though.

    The most expensive PalmOS device is the CLIE760 and that runs $449.00.

    Please understand, both prices are Retail and I am sure could be found cheaper.

    Unfortunately, it is not really a fair comparison. The iPaq does have BlueTooth and a built-in VoiceRecorder. Not to mention, it has a 32MB ROM and 64MB of RAM. Money wise, I would assume those chips to be more expensive.

    It all comes down to personal preference anyway.
    Yea, true...if you can ACTUALLY, use one of those things, then the price may be worth it. But you should probably think to yourself, what more are you really getting? Bluetooth isn't really worth much yet, and I have a $20 tape recorder I use in Spanish . The ROM size is necessary, lol, and so is the RAM. You could store comparable apps on the sizes, I guess. Then you think to memory, SD/MMC is now more expensize than Memory Sticks. And an 8 MB Memory Stick can store A LOT of files for the clie, whereas an 8 MB SD/MMC card could store almost nothing on an iPAQ, interesting huh?
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by AzNCoMpUtAnErD

    Yea, true...if you can ACTUALLY, use one of those things, then the price may be worth it. But you should probably think to yourself, what more are you really getting? Bluetooth isn't really worth much yet, and I have a $20 tape recorder I use in Spanish . The ROM size is necessary, lol, and so is the RAM. You could store comparable apps on the sizes, I guess. Then you think to memory, SD/MMC is now more expensize than Memory Sticks. And an 8 MB Memory Stick can store A LOT of files for the clie, whereas an 8 MB SD/MMC card could store almost nothing on an iPAQ, interesting huh?
    That is why I based my comments on size vs. cost. I am simply assuming that a 32MB ROM chip versus a 04MB ROM chip would be more expensive. I am making the same assumption that the RAM would work the same way.

    As for BlueTooth, your value of it is based on your personal opinion and regardless of what that is, it must have cost something to include it. You cannot compare a tape recorder with a Digital Voice Recorder, at least not in my opinion.

    As for being able to actually use the features, that is completely based on the individual. Personally, I have no need for BlueTooth, but should I get an iPaq I want it included. Simply put, who knows what tomorrow holds. I think the voice recorder would be awesome, especially since you can sync them to your PC. I would find that more useful than a Tape Recorder, especially for archiving.
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2
  15. #15  
    Yea, then you gotta consider all that into the memory you have. MP3s, voice recordings, apps in PPC OS format take up a lot of room. When you go out to buy more external memory, it ain't gonna be cheap for an iPAQ. 8 MB can go a LONG way for PalmOS in terms of just applications. As for MP3s, they're comparable. Sometimes you even gotta think if you really even need all that stuff...When I had my clie, MP3 function was nice, but I don't really need, and I'm doing fine if not better with my Visor Edge. Which cost me about $300 less. Basically, I found out, you don't always have to shell out all that cash and have to go for the most expensive thing out there. But if you just can't use a Palm, then I feel bad for you, because you gotta spend that extra cash...

    Forgot to add...it's kinda funny that the clie can just about do everything the iPAQ can, yet it uses a lot less memory, ROM / RAM, and costs considerably cheaper. In order for a PPC do to the SAME as a Palm, it has to add more memory, processor, etc. That's why they cost more, if you're thinking in your terms of cost.
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
  16. #16  
    Originally posted by AzNCoMpUtAnErD
    Yea, then you gotta consider all that into the memory you have. MP3s, voice recordings, apps in PPC OS format take up a lot of room. When you go out to buy more external memory, it ain't gonna be cheap for an iPAQ. 8 MB can go a LONG way for PalmOS in terms of just applications. As for MP3s, they're comparable. Sometimes you even gotta think if you really even need all that stuff...When I had my clie, MP3 function was nice, but I don't really need, and I'm doing fine if not better with my Visor Edge. Which cost me about $300 less. Basically, I found out, you don't always have to shell out all that cash and have to go for the most expensive thing out there. But if you just can't use a Palm, then I feel bad for you, because you gotta spend that extra cash...

    Forgot to add...it's kinda funny that the clie can just about do everything the iPAQ can, yet it uses a lot less memory, ROM / RAM, and costs considerably cheaper. In order for a PPC do to the SAME as a Palm, it has to add more memory, processor, etc. That's why they cost more, if you're thinking in your terms of cost.
    Again, my comments are strictly concerning the additional hardware costs included in the iPaq 3875. And that is purely an assumption on my part. I am in no way concerned with how efficiently the memory is handled or in what a person might need to buy.

    I love my CLIE. It does everything I want it to do. It is by far the best Palm OS device I have owned. I use it everyday of my life and would recommend it to anyone.

    I can say nothing concerning the actual use of a PPC. I have never owned one and never spent enough time with one to form an opinion. I am interested in purchasing one, as I would like to satisfy my own curiosity. I here so many complaints from people and I just really want to know.

    After all, it comes down to the individual.
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by AzNCoMpUtAnErD
    Yea, then you gotta consider all that into the memory you have. MP3s, voice recordings, apps in PPC OS format take up a lot of room. When you go out to buy more external memory, it ain't gonna be cheap for an iPAQ. 8 MB can go a LONG way for PalmOS in terms of just applications. As for MP3s, they're comparable. Sometimes you even gotta think if you really even need all that stuff...When I had my clie, MP3 function was nice, but I don't really need, and I'm doing fine if not better with my Visor Edge. Which cost me about $300 less. Basically, I found out, you don't always have to shell out all that cash and have to go for the most expensive thing out there. But if you just can't use a Palm, then I feel bad for you, because you gotta spend that extra cash...

    Forgot to add...it's kinda funny that the clie can just about do everything the iPAQ can, yet it uses a lot less memory, ROM / RAM, and costs considerably cheaper. In order for a PPC do to the SAME as a Palm, it has to add more memory, processor, etc. That's why they cost more, if you're thinking in your terms of cost.

    Out of curiosity, which PPC do you own?
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by GSR13
    Out of curiosity, which PPC do you own?
    Well, first I wanted an iPAQ way back when they started. Ended up with a Palm IIIc, don't ask how it all happened. I broke the screen on that, and Palm sent me a replacement, and I was able to get an iPAQ! The coolness lasted for about 5 days, then it died. PPC 2002 doesn't seem to add very much, from what I've seen. Just a lot of perty pictures. It was such a piece of junk, so I sold it off for a Sony Clie. My Sony Clie was stolen, so now I was able to sell my keyboard and cradle off and get a Visor Edge. The Edge is soo nice. I loved the Clie, but I also love this thing. The only thing I really miss is probably the jog dial. Didn't use MP3 that much, I can live without music, color adds something, but it's not essential. I can use cool fonts and backgrounds now, so I don't miss color or high-res. As for pics, for now, hard copies are still better. I don't miss the size at all. Overall, I think I'd still want to have my clie, but I'm really satisfied with my Edge too. I want a T615....lol....

    Gotta change my avatar sometime....
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
  19. #19  
    Originally posted by AzNCoMpUtAnErD

    Well, first I wanted an iPAQ way back when they started. Ended up with a Palm IIIc, don't ask how it all happened. I broke the screen on that, and Palm sent me a replacement, and I was able to get an iPAQ! The coolness lasted for about 5 days, then it died. PPC 2002 doesn't seem to add very much, from what I've seen. Just a lot of perty pictures. It was such a piece of junk, so I sold it off for a Sony Clie. My Sony Clie was stolen, so now I was able to sell my keyboard and cradle off and get a Visor Edge. The Edge is soo nice. I loved the Clie, but I also love this thing. The only thing I really miss is probably the jog dial. Didn't use MP3 that much, I can live without music, color adds something, but it's not essential. I can use cool fonts and backgrounds now, so I don't miss color or high-res. As for pics, for now, hard copies are still better. I don't miss the size at all. Overall, I think I'd still want to have my clie, but I'm really satisfied with my Edge too. I want a T615....lol....

    Gotta change my avatar sometime....
    I knew all about your unfortunate CLIE story, I just did not know you owned an iPaq.

    Personally, I would have a hard time going from a CLIE to anything MonoChrome. As for FormFactor, I always end up carrying my PDA in a case on my belt, so size is not a huge deal. My CLIE is plenty small enough. It is a good bit smaller than my Prism was, so the form factor is great.

    But, if I wanted small and did not mind monochrome, I would have to have a T415. I have played with one and found nothing wrong with the screen. It is extremely small and has the Enhanced IR thing, which for some reason intrigues me.

    Glad you like your Edge, especially considering some of the stories we have heard on here.
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2
  20. #20  
    Yea, it WAS my dream machine. Reading about it in the press releases and web sites made it sound sooo awesome! It was a pretty cool thing, but I couldn't do much more than games and MP3s...I wanted a PDA to help me organize my schedule and make sure school, music, and extra curricular all mix and work. Not as a toy. Those things are cool, if they can come after the orgranization. That's why I love the clie. Now the Edge I must say I love the size of it. I put my PDA in my right front pocket. In the EB case, the clie was 1" thick, and didn't feel that great, but hey, I loved her. The Edge is great, and very usable. I like the feel of the stylus...hehe...I also carry it with me to places where I wouldn't have brought my clie... The flip cover is great, and I think she looks better than the clie too. Some guy steals my girl, so I get a new one I like better, haha, doesn't get better than that
    nelson.hsieh
    good artists copy, great artists steal. . .
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