Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21
  1. Zelig87's Avatar
    Posts
    49 Posts
    Global Posts
    56 Global Posts
       #1  
    Can Palm and webOS really resist the challenge of Android and Maemo 5 in the long term (or even medium term) ?

    What is to stop any competitive advantage of webOS being replicated soon enough on the other platforms ?

    Already, MotoBlur is cutting in to the advantages offered by Synergy, whilst Maemo 5/Nokia N900's "Dashboard" offers much of what was good about webOS Cards (ie multitasking, easy switching between running apps, "live" thumbnails etc).

    Android has Google, HTC, Motorola, Sony Ericsson and many more companies all investing in that platform, whilst Maemo5 has the might of Nokia and an open source community behind it. Poor old webOS just has Palm.

    My ageing Treo 750v needs to be replaced soon, but why should I join the webOS party instead of jumping on board the Android train or going with Nokia/Maemo5 ??
  2. sumitk's Avatar
    Posts
    48 Posts
    Global Posts
    55 Global Posts
    #2  
    Hm. Sometimes products adopted and designed by a consortium end up looking like that, like they were designed by committee. That goes for Android whenever I've tried it. Nokia I have no idea. Products with OS, SW and HW designed by one company often just have a more consistent and refined user experience. This is true of the iPhone, has been true generally of Palm products and I find true of the Pre. I've had multitasking on WinMo and Blackberry in the past, Pre does it much more elegantly.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelig87 View Post
    Poor old webOS just has Palm.
    Well, just to clarify, you do realize webOS has Linux underpinnings? Large portions of it are open-source as well.

    But in any case, its WAY too early to go picking sides. Android only just started getting onto other phones, webOS has only been in the wild for 3 months, and Maemo5 hasn't even been released yet!

    Though, I will say, is what webOS should of had. Not some sedated commercial where I don't even know what its about until the very end. UGH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall
    I'm an Embedded Software Engineer. My idea of a Good User Interface is printf().
  4. Zelig87's Avatar
    Posts
    49 Posts
    Global Posts
    56 Global Posts
       #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall View Post
    Well, just to clarify, you do realize webOS has Linux underpinnings? Large portions of it are open-source as well.
    Yes, I realise that, but webOS on top of the Linux kernel does not appear to be open source the way Maemo appears to be.

    But in any case, its WAY too early to go picking sides. Android only just started getting onto other phones, webOS has only been in the wild for 3 months, and Maemo5 hasn't even been released yet!
    Right now, webOS is probably ahead of the game (certainly Android) and as you say, Maemo5 is not out yet (although only 1 month away).

    My question is can Palm stay ahead (or even just keep up) or will webOS be swamped by the rapid development and advancement of these other platforms given the level of resources behind those platforms compared to what Palm can afford to throw at webOS.


    Though, I will say, is what webOS should of had. Not some sedated commercial where I don't even know what its about until the very end. UGH.
    Certainly something to drool over....
    Last edited by Zelig87; 09/11/2009 at 09:52 PM.
  5. Zelig87's Avatar
    Posts
    49 Posts
    Global Posts
    56 Global Posts
       #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by sumitkishore View Post
    Hm. Sometimes products adopted and designed by a consortium end up looking like that, like they were designed by committee. That goes for Android whenever I've tried it. Nokia I have no idea. Products with OS, SW and HW designed by one company often just have a more consistent and refined user experience.
    That is definitely a potential problem for Android. I can see HTC's Sense UI having some good features, MotoBlur doing other good things and SE Rachael UI having something different again, but there may be no way to have all the best bits in one place working consistently.

    I've had multitasking on WinMo and Blackberry in the past, Pre does it much more elegantly.
    Undoubtedly, but how long before other platforms catch up in this respect ? Maemo5's multitasking looks pretty slick and effective.


    Does webOS have anything that the others can't match without some major re-design of their whole platform ? Is there some lasting advantage webOS has over the other platforms ?
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelig87 View Post
    Can Palm and webOS really resist the challenge of Android and Maemo 5 in the long term (or even medium term) ?

    What is to stop any competitive advantage of webOS being replicated soon enough on the other platforms ?

    Already, MotoBlur is cutting in to the advantages offered by Synergy, whilst Maemo 5/Nokia N900's "Dashboard" offers much of what was good about webOS Cards (ie multitasking, easy switching between running apps, "live" thumbnails etc).

    Android has Google, HTC, Motorola, Sony Ericsson and many more companies all investing in that platform, whilst Maemo5 has the might of Nokia and an open source community behind it. Poor old webOS just has Palm.

    My ageing Treo 750v needs to be replaced soon, but why should I join the webOS party instead of jumping on board the Android train or going with Nokia/Maemo5 ??
    Palm will soon be in dire straits if they don't get their marketing right. Check out the MotoBlur site and how they are pushing their synergy-like concept. Much better than Palm has done to date, imho.

    Palm has spent too much time focused on the Pre's ability "to run multiple applications at the same time."
  7. #7  
    One mistake Palm has made, maybe it's just a phrasing and not that weighty, is clear from the introduction of the Pre. That the original Palm was designed with the competition in mind being pen and paper, and now it is the web, or something to that effect.

    Trouble is, pen and paper are still easier to use than the Pre.

    In my opinion, Palm should not emulate the iPhone but stick to its founding principles. Understandably, this is hard to do when top management was imported from Apple. But have a look at the Palm OS UI Design Guidelines. There are no companies today who give a damn about this stuff, and unfortunately Palm seems to have lost interest. Today's UI guidelines document is a measly web page. If Palm ever had a competitive advantage, the original document describes it, and while everyone is chasing social networking and games, productivity is under served.

    Technology-wise, I think Palm made the right bet. The slick stuff you see in the commercials for MotoBlur and the Maemo is handled by a window manager. The webOS window manager is just as good and fast. The important stuff is the runtime and layout engines for apps, as well as access to system services.

    On the desktop, the trend during the last few years has been clear. Apps are moving to the web, web technology has gotten good enough in conjunction with todays technology. That said, on mobile phones, especially the iPhone, the trend seems to be opposite. Web apps are shrinkwrapped as native apps, even though this gives them no significant new capabilities other than merely looking slick by running inside the window manager.

    My personal opinion is that this reverse trend is an aberration that will correct itself and Palm is already positioned for that eventuality, although it could be debated whether it's ahead of its time.

    Palm is a very small company, and to compete it has to use a lot of leverage. In webOS, the leverage is the use of webKit as a runtime and layout manager for applications. The trade-off is having less control over low level execution, so low level APIs for developers and optimization potential will be limited.

    Consider Maemo and Android. Their foundations are in system and server programming, but they are put to work in mobile client platforms. Do the advantages carry over? I don't think so. Sure, they're fast and have access to advanced facilities (e.g. graphics acceleration, multithreading), but they also burden developers with details that are not critical to most mobile app development. Memory management, verbose syntax, rigid and tedious development cycles. Are they optimal for mobile development? In my opinion, no. I concede that multithreading is still important even in mobile apps, and Palm has some options (WebWorkers), but at the small scale of mobile apps, a scripting/dynamic language can do just just fine.

    I'm sure ADGrant will jump up and down saying that low level languages let you optimize for power and memory constraints on mobile devices. But my response would be that today's hardware makes these much less important. Progress has always meant letting hardware advances take the burden off of the programmer, and this is just what Palm is doing. Now there's just the matter of execution.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  8. #8  
    Honestly, I'm not entirely convinced from what we've seen of Maemo that Nokia has 'figured it out' yet. The n810 and n800 were way too techie-oriented for something like them to really gain a large foothold, and while they've shown some neat widgets, what they haven't done is shown more of the back-end that was some complicated to the user in the first place.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    In my opinion, Palm should not emulate the iPhone but stick to its founding principles. Understandably, this is hard to do when top management was imported from Apple. But have a look at the Palm OS UI Design Guidelines. There are no companies today who give a damn about this stuff, and unfortunately Palm seems to have lost interest. Today's UI guidelines document is a measly web page.
    While I agree there's some stuff Palm needs some work on on the developers side, I'm not sure this is that great of an example.

    I mean, you're comparing a design document for a 6-year old operating system at the time (in 2002) with a design document for a 3-month old operating system. Of course documentation like that will get more robust over time. I'd love to see what the Palm OS 1.0 version of that looked like.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    While I agree there's some stuff Palm needs some work on on the developers side, I'm not sure this is that great of an example.

    I mean, you're comparing a design document for a 6-year old operating system at the time (in 2002) with a design document for a 3-month old operating system. Of course documentation like that will get more robust over time. I'd love to see what the Palm OS 1.0 version of that looked like.
    I'm not presenting it as an example of lax documentation, but of how the focus of the company has drifted.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I'm not presenting it as an example of lax documentation, but of how the focus of the company has drifted.
    Well, I just mean early in the lifecycle of the operating system, it's very difficult to focus on making UI design guidelines for other developers when the operating system is also clearly unfinished. It's a little easier to focus on UI design guidelines when the base of the OS is more set in stone, as it was years later for the original Palm OS.
  12. shotyme's Avatar
    Posts
    168 Posts
    Global Posts
    175 Global Posts
    #12  
    Interesting points noted above.

    I will say that the commercial that Nokia has for the N900 is what Palm should have done.

    As far as how Palm will do in the future, it will survive. It has a solid OS that can compete. You don't have to have too flashy of an interface to be successful. Look at the Iphone and symbian feature phones.

    However, Palm is missing some core features it never should have left out, like video recording and being able to forward text to name a couple. Palm seems to be doing OK, but I think they need to contract with HTC or Sony to do their hardware.

    In the end, each OS has their niche. Iphone, Android, Android, the other Android, WebOs, Symbian. Palm and WebOS have a future and will do well
  13. #13  
    In the end the success of WebOS will depend on the success of the developer community and number of 3rd party applications. That is why Palm chose to use the Mojo/javascript/html... There are already many threads here where developers are debating whether this was a good decision or not, but Palm felt this was the way to get the fastest and broadest number of developers to code for the platform. Whether they are right I think we should know fairly quickly. Also, hardware drives software here and Palm needs to expand the webos user base as quickly as possible to make the platform and appealing market for prospective developers. That's why Palm is trying to push the Pixies so quickly after the unveiling of the Pre.

    Finally I think the community here at Precentral and etc is a lot more vibrant and organic than I think for those other platforms mentioned. Hopefully sites like this can also be a significant factor for the success of this platform...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by shotyme View Post
    However, Palm is missing some core features it never should have left out, like video recording and being able to forward text to name a couple. Palm seems to be doing OK, but I think they need to contract with HTC or Sony to do their hardware.
    and as I do get it -- I do not own a pre -- it's not very customizable -- eg you cant even change/add/delete the search engines. I would not want to have twitter as a search engine, but I am stuck with it, as I could not delete it (unless doing some hacks). I mean browser have this feature for years... but palm seems to think, that what they are packaging is good for everyone, what is simply wrong.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by shotyme View Post
    Interesting points noted above.

    I will say that the commercial that Nokia has for the N900 is what Palm should have done.

    As far as how Palm will do in the future, it will survive. It has a solid OS that can compete. You don't have to have too flashy of an interface to be successful. Look at the Iphone and symbian feature phones.

    However, Palm is missing some core features it never should have left out, like video recording and being able to forward text to name a couple. Palm seems to be doing OK, but I think they need to contract with HTC or Sony to do their hardware.

    In the end, each OS has their niche. Iphone, Android, Android, the other Android, WebOs, Symbian. Palm and WebOS have a future and will do well
    How is video recording or text forwarding a "core feature" ?? I'd say the true core feature missing from WebOS is a video driver and opengl or some sort of hardware acceleration from the GPU... that is why the thing is so damn laggy...
  16. #16  
    One could easily flip the original question around. Any competitive advantage of other platforms can be invorporated into WebOS, too. Assuming Palm can get it's act together in time.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  17. #17  
    Maemo looks good, no doubt. Andriod definitely has the leg up on development so far, as well as hardware. Palm is in good company, if you ask me. Consider the segment leader (I wont mention the forbidden fruit), they run ONE OS. They can update it whenever. They also launched it with features missing, and has continued to add them. Palm has, in my opinion, a great stance to be the leader. The API's are coming. The hardware is being expanded. And upgrades are around the corner. Android and Maemo, while easy to hack due to their almost total open nature, can have special GUI's and features, they are not supported. What if Google updates Andriod? Does all Android devices get the update? Those with special GUI's may not. That will cause fragmentation, much akin to Windows 7 and PalmOS. Palm now has the same advantage that the Cuppertino company has...the interests of the consumer who wants his/her device to be relevant for the foreseeable future and control of the ecosystem. That will hit the 'fat-middle' that they targeted with webOS.
  18. shotyme's Avatar
    Posts
    168 Posts
    Global Posts
    175 Global Posts
    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdmogren View Post
    How is video recording or text forwarding a "core feature" ?? I'd say the true core feature missing from WebOS is a video driver and opengl or some sort of hardware acceleration from the GPU... that is why the thing is so damn laggy...
    It is a simple feature found on most feature phones that you can get for free. It should have been added. So is forwarding text. A video driver is not a core feature, nor is hardware acceleration from the GPU. Core features are features you would expect in any basic feature phone, at least for a smartphone such as the Pre.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Maemo looks good, no doubt. Andriod definitely has the leg up on development so far, as well as hardware. Palm is in good company, if you ask me. Consider the segment leader (I wont mention the forbidden fruit), they run ONE OS. They can update it whenever. They also launched it with features missing, and has continued to add them. Palm has, in my opinion, a great stance to be the leader. The API's are coming. The hardware is being expanded. And upgrades are around the corner. Android and Maemo, while easy to hack due to their almost total open nature, can have special GUI's and features, they are not supported. What if Google updates Andriod? Does all Android devices get the update? Those with special GUI's may not. That will cause fragmentation, much akin to Windows 7 and PalmOS. Palm now has the same advantage that the Cuppertino company has...the interests of the consumer who wants his/her device to be relevant for the foreseeable future and control of the ecosystem. That will hit the 'fat-middle' that they targeted with webOS.
    Forbidden fruit, lol. I'm just saying that Palm needs to learn from past mistakes. I believe they are trying to be too much like the forbidden fruit as you say. I do understand they had time constraints, but having at least the core features is a plus. Video recording? That is on just about every feature and smartphone out there. Not being able to forward text had me at a lost. They could at least contract with HTC like they did for the Treo Pro, but WebOs is great and has a solid future.
  19. #19  
    I have read that Android has a disadvantage in the app department because of the growing number of phones that use their OS. The reason stated was that all these phones have different resolutions...screen sizes...etc that it is a pain to create these apps to fit etc.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by ferriskeanu View Post
    I have read that Android has a disadvantage in the app department because of the growing number of phones that use their OS. The reason stated was that all these phones have different resolutions...screen sizes...etc that it is a pain to create these apps to fit etc.
    Like the Pre and the Pixi have the same screen size or all future webOS devices will have the same screen size....
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions