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  1. #81  
    I had the diamond and the touch pro.... both excellent phones and I do like HTC but I will never go to an onscreen keyboard again... ever! The iphones keyboard is the only decent virtual keyboard I have tried.

    The hero comes with a 3.2" screen which is far too small for any virtual typing... sending a million texts to my gf everyday would just be down right annoying.

    I think palm will step up their game if they want to compete, and i'm excited for what they have in store.
  2. #82  
    Is Marc done with chatteremail for the android yet?
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    This has been one of my most enduring disappointments with the Pre thus far.

    If I told you Palm had a phone with the hardware of the Pre, but software-wise, they merely slapped a WebOS skin on top of Windows Mobile and had HTC make it, and it had no drivers and framework to use the GPU and had no SDK to leverage all of the device APIs...you'd say "Man, if only Palm made the phone themselves. That would really be something."

    But the cruel reality is that's what happened anyway, only WebOS is on top of Linux instead of Windows Mobile.

    Meanwhile, Android's openness and robust API has resulted in manufacturers creating several different flavors for users to choose from, apps like Layar Augmented Reality and Shazam utilizing ALL of the device hardware functionality and APIs, and an ondevice marketplace of 5,000+ apps and growing...

    ...all in less than a year with only one domestic carrier having the device thus far, with a pretty rosy year ahead too.

    I want to see Palm do something similar, but signs thus far aren't encouraging. We'll see.
    Well, I did say "can be a great advantage" on purpose. They definitely haven't used all of their potential yet, but it's still there. And considering this is the fastest I've seen any phone get so many updates, I have the opposite reaction, I'm definitely encouraged. But if the Pre doesn't work for one right now, there's no reason to keep it just based on potential either.

    I have to disagree entirely with your comment on how far Android has come "all in less than a year with only one domestic carrier having the device thus far" though. While it's only been on devices for less than a year, the first version of it was back in 2007, and it's clearly taken much longer than Google anticipated to break out onto multiple devices - remember when 2008 was supposed to be the summer of Android? Only now, 2 years later, are we starting to get multiple devices using it.
  4. Clack's Avatar
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    ....
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    ....

    Android is a complete OS that provides more integration opportunities than WebOS ever well. So please, once you have finished your engineering degree and have 10 or so years in the industry, then I might consider what you have to say about OS design, implementation and distribution...

    As for the "underlying OS" you know not what you are talking about: The Linux kernel has been complete for years now and the GNU add-ons such as shells and bin-utils all come from the same open source projects.

    Oh, and if the above isn't enough for you: You are also overlooking the fact that Google, HTC and Android was world wide from the start where as Palm is barley recognized in places such as Europe and Asia.
    The primary, and user impacting differences, are in the UI and the 3rd market applications store. The later is barley existent on the Pre.

    WebOS for all its nice issues, is more than a year behind Android and it still doesn't support Exchange nor video a video Camera. The HTC Hero will have all the features that WebOS is missing plus a very robust apps store. And again, Palm clearly didn't learn from industry expierence -- they started acting like Apple rather than who they are: a struggling company that no longer commands the clout they did 15 years ago.

    By the time Doughnut will be coming out, Pre will still be struggling to attract developers and making the case as Sprint's premier phone while Android will continue enjoying growing success on multiple carriers.
    "We must not contradict, but instruct him that contradicts us; for a madman is not cured by another running mad also." - Dr. An Wang
  5. Clack's Avatar
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    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Well, I did say "can be a great advantage" on purpose.
    What you are really saying is Palm is begging for acceptance promising to make good on what everyone else has already done.

    Why go with a promise when others such as Android have lived up to theirs already...
    Last edited by Clack; 09/03/2009 at 03:53 PM.
    "We must not contradict, but instruct him that contradicts us; for a madman is not cured by another running mad also." - Dr. An Wang
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Okay, you think that Android is a complete product, but too bad you didn't tell HTC that, they wouldn't have had to waste all that time and money developing SenseUI, ...

    webOS, for all its flaws and issues (and don't get me wrong, there are still many) has a complete underlying structure and a great UI on top of it. So while there's plenty of room for improvement, it's not something like Android where it's missing a great UI and every single manufacturer has to code that from scratch. There's only one manufacturer in this case, so it's a little different, and they did write their own great UI, but it's part of the operating system, not something that is patched in on top of it like SenseUI.
    HTC did not have to build SensUI on top of Android. They chose to jsut as they did with WinMo. Both Android and WinMo ship with a complete UI, HTC just thinks they can do better.

    Android is a complete opensource operating system based on Linux. The major "powered by Google" components are the gmail email client and the google calendar app. Android also has an impressive SDK, far more impressive that what Palm has the chutzpah to call an SDK.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    HTC did not have to build SensUI on top of Android. They chose to jsut as they did with WinMo. Both Android and WinMo ship with a complete UI, HTC just thinks they can do better.

    Android is a complete opensource operating system based on Linux. The major "powered by Google" components are the gmail email client and the google calendar app. Android also has an impressive SDK, far more impressive that what Palm has the chutzpah to call an SDK.
    And look at how much fanfare Samsung's Android products have (not) received to see if that UI was necessary or not. The Hero is leap years ahead of the stock unpolished Android setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clack
    What you are realling saying is Palm is begging for acceptance promising to make good on what everyone else has already done.

    Why go with a promise when others such as Android have lived up to theirs already...
    That's absolutely the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying to me, the Pre has exceeded expectations and is great. To me, Android is a lot of promise hindered by a lack of polish, even though the Hero seems to fix most of that. I clearly said multiple times that nobody should get the Pre (or the Hero) just based on promise, but instead get what works for them right now.

    You do realize that Android has been in development since before 2005 when Google acquired Android Inc, that it's first version was shown in 2007 and only came out to devices in 2008, and it's now 2009? It's not like this is all of a sudden in the first year they're having amazing devices, but it took a lot of work to get to where they are now. WebOS was in development for a while too, and it needs a lot of work as well, but good things don't just happen overnight.

    But none of that is any reason to get the Pre or to get the Hero if it doesn't work for you when you use it. The Pre works for me. Android does not. I don't know how many more times I can say that people should try both for themselves rather than anything else.

    Anyway, this is getting a little ridiculous, I didn't think the one off-handed comment would spark so much debate. I guess it's my own fault for commenting on my opinion of Android in general, especially where it doesn't apply to the Hero which does have a much more polished interface on top of default Android, which again, in my opinion (and apparently HTC's and Motorola's) is desperately needed.

    Let's get back to talking about the Pre itself vs the HTC Hero like the topic of this post rather than talking about Android itself in theory, because none of that matters to the Hero.
    Last edited by jhoff80; 09/03/2009 at 02:45 PM.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by triathlet3 View Post
    The hero comes with a 3.2" screen which is far too small for any virtual typing... sending a million texts to my gf everyday would just be down right annoying.
    YMMV, but this seems to be all anyone wants on the Pre, and it has an even smaller screen.

    I had an Instinct S30 before the Pre. Had no problems typing onscreen in landscape mode (It didn't have a portrait keyboard), and that was on a device with a resistive screen and no multi-touch.
  9. #89  
    I hear all this talk about Hero vs. Palm...but it leads me back to my first question, is the palm worth keeping? Will the phone gain enough developers and improve enough in it's current issues and flaws that it will in essence become a "complete" smart phone. It's currently lacking in a bunch of areas, but the question is, will palm be able to solve those issues, CAN palm solve those issues? IS IT POSSIBLE to solve these issues palm faces with the pre. The end result is I like the pre, but it needs to account for a whole array of tremendous problems...and IF IT CAN EVENTUALLY account for those and fix them, it might be worth saving. IF IT CAN attract enough quality developers to make worthy apps for it...it might be worth sticking around. The bottom line is, should i return the phone before my 30 days runs out or should i stick it out and take the investment I made and run with it. I mean, is it really worth having a 1st generation Pre if the 2nd generation Pre is already being made? Would it make better sense to wait for the 2nd generation?
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by darkheart777 View Post
    I hear all this talk about Hero vs. Palm...but it leads me back to my first question, is the palm worth keeping? Will the phone gain enough developers and improve enough in it's current issues and flaws that it will in essence become a "complete" smart phone. It's currently lacking in a bunch of areas, but the question is, will palm be able to solve those issues, CAN palm solve those issues? IS IT POSSIBLE to solve these issues palm faces with the pre. The end result is I like the pre, but it needs to account for a whole array of tremendous problems...and IF IT CAN EVENTUALLY account for those and fix them, it might be worth saving. IF IT CAN attract enough quality developers to make worthy apps for it...it might be worth sticking around. The bottom line is, should i return the phone before my 30 days runs out or should i stick it out and take the investment I made and run with it. I mean, is it really worth having a 1st generation Pre if the 2nd generation Pre is already being made? Would it make better sense to wait for the 2nd generation?
    Simple answer. Is it working well for you now that you're happy with it despite any issues? If yes, then keep it. If no, get something else in the meantime and take a look at where Palm is at a year or two down the line. Don't hold on to the phone past 30 days if you're unsure about it, just reexamine your needs later.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    You do realize that Android has been in development since before 2005 when Google acquired Android Inc, that it's first version was shown in 2007 and only came out to devices in 2008, and it's now 2009? It's not like this is all of a sudden in the first year they're having amazing devices, but it took a lot of work to get to where they are now. WebOS was in development for a while too, and it needs a lot of work as well, but good things don't just happen overnight.
    I am not sure it matters how long Android was in development or WebOS for that matter. There isn't that much original content in either OS but there seems to be a less in WebOS that in Android.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I am not sure it matters how long Android was in development or WebOS for that matter. There isn't that much original content in either OS but there seems to be a less in WebOS that in Android.
    Relevant to the fact that the "superior SDK" and all of that didn't just pop out overnight, but that it took a long time to get to where they are today. But I'm done commenting on Android in theory and will only comment about it on the HTC Hero in this thread because I think I brought it way off topic.
  13. skitzi's Avatar
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    #93  
    Can you "exchange" a phone using the Sprint TEP insurance?
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Well, I did say "can be a great advantage" on purpose. They definitely haven't used all of their potential yet, but it's still there. And considering this is the fastest I've seen any phone get so many updates, I have the opposite reaction, I'm definitely encouraged. But if the Pre doesn't work for one right now, there's no reason to keep it just based on potential either.
    Many updates = great.
    None of the updates or the SDK utilizing or allowing developers access to the hardware's unique features = not so much.

    I have to disagree entirely with your comment on how far Android has come "all in less than a year with only one domestic carrier having the device thus far" though. While it's only been on devices for less than a year, the first version of it was back in 2007, and it's clearly taken much longer than Google anticipated to break out onto multiple devices - remember when 2008 was supposed to be the summer of Android? Only now, 2 years later, are we starting to get multiple devices using it.
    Let's not be coy. I'm clearly referring to zero being the point of release to the public. WebOS has been in the oven for years, too. But Android has a full, REAL SDK available one month prior to launch, and their market shows how that paid off. Palm still doesn't offer one with access to all the device hardware 90 days after launch. They are behind Android's pace in any sort of objective terms. In sales, too.

    T-Mobile announced sales of one million G1s SIX months after launch. The Pre shipped with comparable hype on a carrier with 18 million more subscribers, and 3 months later, we haven't heard a word about sales, which is not a good sign.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Many updates = great.
    None of the updates or the SDK utilizing or allowing developers access to the hardware's unique features = not so much.
    That's actually not true. Palm has actually improved the SDK since launch. In 1.0.2-1.0.4 as an example, most of the accelerometer support wasn't there except for determining orientation. In 1.1 that was fleshed out into fully featured support (well okay, maybe not fully featured - one of the commands isn't working yet, but there were still already steps made forward) for shake as well as raw data from the accelerometer. Maybe not something that matters all that often, but to me it's a clear sign that things are going to just continue to get better. But there is no "killer app" available on Android or on iPhone that makes me consider the SDK gimped. It needs some work, but I'm currently happy with it, hence my sticking with the Pre. It does sound like you might be better served by going to Android, and if that does work for you, then great.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Let's not be coy. I'm clearly referring to zero being the point of release to the public. WebOS has been in the oven for years, too. But Android has a full, REAL SDK available one month prior to launch, and their market shows how that paid off. Palm still doesn't offer one with access to all the device hardware 90 days after launch. They are behind Android's pace in any sort of objective terms. In sales, too.
    I fully realize that WebOS has been worked on for years as well, but the difference is huge though, in my opinion. Google fully expected Android to be put on devices much sooner after the announcement in Nov 2007 than the G1 came in Oct 2008. The unexpected delays there gave them a ton of time to get out an SDK comparatively speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    T-Mobile announced sales of one million G1s SIX months after launch. The Pre shipped with comparable hype on a carrier with 18 million more subscribers, and 3 months later, we haven't heard a word about sales, which is not a good sign.
    Eh, I'm not a stockholder, sales don't mean a thing to me. With the sales of the Pre, Palm has built itself enough of a foundation that the whole thing isn't going to suddenly crumble like was expected prior to the announcement, and webOS gives them a solid way to move forward. With regards to sales, that's really all I care about.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by skitzi View Post
    Can you "exchange" a phone using the Sprint TEP insurance?
    Not at your choice. If your phone is no longer available, it's Asurion's discretion as to what phone is considered comparable.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Relevant to the fact that the "superior SDK" and all of that didn't just pop out overnight, but that it took a long time to get to where they are today. But I'm done commenting on Android in theory and will only comment about it on the HTC Hero in this thread because I think I brought it way off topic.
    I don' think you did. The Hero may have a cool GUI shell but its real significance is it's the first Android device in the US on a carrier other than T-Mobile and the first Android device to compete directly with the Pre.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    That's actually not true. Palm has actually improved the SDK since launch. In 1.0.2-1.0.4 as an example, most of the accelerometer support wasn't there except for determining orientation. In 1.1 that was fleshed out into fully featured support (well okay, maybe not fully featured - one of the commands isn't working yet, but there were still already steps made forward) for shake as well as raw data from the accelerometer. Maybe not something that matters all that often, but to me it's a clear sign that things are going to just continue to get better.

    ...

    Eh, I'm not a stockholder, sales don't mean a thing to me. With the sales of the Pre, Palm has built itself enough of a foundation that the whole thing isn't going to suddenly crumble like was expected prior to the announcement, and webOS gives them a solid way to move forward. With regards to sales, that's really all I care about.
    The WebOS SDK needs more than a few extra API calls to make it comparable to the Android SDK. It badly needs a decent debugger for example.

    Sales of a platform matter. More sales means more 3rd party support.
  19. #99  
    so what do we have here then...i REAL battle between devices? Is palm prepared? You have Apple vs. Palm vs. HTC. Think palm is prepared for yet ANOTHER competitor, being a first generation smartphone and all? Can palm take the loss of customer base that HTC brings to the table, and the customers apple keeps claiming?
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    The WebOS SDK needs more than a few extra API calls to make it comparable to the Android SDK. It badly needs a decent debugger for example.

    Sales of a platform matter. More sales means more 3rd party support.
    Not saying it's comparable, I'm saying it's taking steps forward. Sales do matter some, but what we have right now on the Pre is a fanbase generally eager to get more quality applications, which means there should be a pretty big market for stuff at least at the beginning.
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