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  1. #781  
    Your right, GPU is a one trick pony... but that one trick helps out a lot when it comes to pretty UIs. And no, I don't have OS10, I run Ubuntu. If OS10 were released without access to the GPU... and then all of a sudden, it were released with access & hooks to the GPU... the computer would appear to run SUBSTANTIALLY faster. Especially if there were no page up/down button. Scrolling is the greatest example of a graphical function that the GPU would handle far more efficiently than the CPU.

    Scrolling in general is what is taxing the CPU (whether it be scrolling the drop-down menus, scrolling a web page or webapp, scrolling thru cards, scroling the card from the bottom to the top of the screen (opening an app), etc.). Release some pressure from that... put it on the GPU, which is already burning energy... and you're essentially turning this pretty UI that is fast enough into a speed deamon that isn't sucking down as much battery.
  2. #782  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Your right, GPU is a one trick pony... but that one trick helps out a lot when it comes to pretty UIs. And no, I don't have OS10, I run Ubuntu. If OS10 were released without access to the GPU... and then all of a sudden, it were released with access & hooks to the GPU... the computer would appear to run SUBSTANTIALLY faster. Especially if there were no page up/down button. Scrolling is the greatest example of a graphical function that the GPU would handle far more efficiently than the CPU.

    Scrolling in general is what is taxing the CPU (whether it be scrolling the drop-down menus, scrolling a web page or webapp, scrolling thru cards, scroling the card from the bottom to the top of the screen (opening an app), etc.). Release some pressure from that... put it on the GPU, which is already burning energy... and you're essentially turning this pretty UI that is fast enough into a speed deamon that isn't sucking down as much battery.
    This is the only thing I felt I should comment on, its true the scrolling hurts when the GPU drivers are not in use. I have to deal with it on my development machine because theirs no drivers available for the crappy ATI card I run under Fedora 11. page up and down is fine, scrolling is HORRIBLe but since its only used for JTAG debugging/flashing and some eprom burning i dont mind it. had a similar issue on my main laptop with ATI and ubuntu.

    After I got the graphics driver fixed it did help the rendering but did not increase the overall speed of the machine at all, only the page rendering so you really cant call it a major increase as far as processing power. just looks faster. if it was a headless machine(aka server) you would never know it was missing the drivers.
  3. #783  
    Exactly. And since WebOS is "essentially" scrolling the card up to the top of the screen from nowhere... that's why I say that actually implementing the OS hooks to use the GPU will make opening apps quicker (opening the app triggers a pretty effect), opening drop down menus [triggers a pretty effect], flipping between cards (pretty effects), and scrolling in the browser (just plain handled better with GPU support from all the graphics), and then same theory for viewing pics (sliding images to reveal another sliding image). Those are the biggest hits to battery life and performance and could easily be handled by the GPU that is already wasting battery life.

    That is why Palm will have this at the top of their list, and why I say we'll see this implemented in 6-8 months. It took Apple 12 months, which is in line with my prediction. I'm only "hoping" for 6, because that would be awesome... but it'll DEFINITELY be here within 8 months.
  4. #784  
    any updates on this front?
  5. UF15's Avatar
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    #785  
    I don't know why I am really doing this, but here I go . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    With that one software update, the phone will go from lagging at everything it does to virtually no lag whatsoever. That's all there is to it. The GPU will be used for opening apps (notice how it slides from off the screen to on the screen, that's something the GPU would be doing that the CPU is doing now), for the drop-down menus (the CPU is simply refreshing the screen a whole buncha times), for the cards view in general, and for scrolling. THAT is what is taxing the CPU so much. It's not so much the javascript and poor optimization as it is the CPU trying to do the job of the GPU. To quantify how fast it will be cannot be done, but I can assure you that when doing all the beautiful transitions it does now... there will be no lag, and that right there will give a perceivable difference of GREATER THAN TWO TIMES. There would be no more checkerboard when scrolling a huge web page. There would just be no more lag at all. There's nothing more to it than that.
    The GPU is used for animating the opening of the apps, not opening them. What do you base the "perceivable difference of greater than two times" on? How do you know? Do you have inside information? Are you an electrical engineer?


    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    It comes from a mixture of experience, logic, and common sense. The biggest hit to the Pre right now is the CPU trying to do the job of a CPU and GPU. If you do nothing but flick up and down in the browser all day (well, you wouldn't make it all day), you'd actually only end up flicking for a couple hours if that. Each time you flick the page, it's redrawing the screen 20+ times, depending on how far you flick it. That is something that the GPU would take over and an overall net decrease in power consumption would be realized. The CPU power would decrease, the GPU power would barely increase if any at all. The GPU is using power just being in there, so whenever it's actually put to use, the power consumption will barely increase for the minimal tasks it needs to do.
    Ok, since I lack the "logic" and "common sense" that you do, please explain to me a few things. Quantify how much power is being used by scrolling? How much power (in watts, amps, whatever you want) does it take to scroll a browser page down one full screen?

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Again, it comes from business logic and common sense. If Palm wants to stick around for very long, they need to implement the OS so that it offloads the pretty graphical nonsense from the CPU to the GPU ("essentially turning the Pre into a dual-core device"). They have no interest in games; they want to make the OS a lot snappier, and they want the battery life to increase, and there's only so much you can do with javascript optimizations. Getting the OS to use the GPU for its MANY graphical transitions is their plan. Why would you want to do anything else other than put the GPU to use that you paid for and is sucking battery life as it is, just sitting there??
    I agree with you. The GPU should be used, and should be used soon. What you don't seem to realize is that Palm simply does not have the resources to do it, and do it well, in the next month or three. We hear stuff like "immediate" future thrown around, but the only solution we have seen so far is WebGL, and we are realistically looking at 6 months to a year before that is implemented properly on the desktop platform. Yeah, it makes perfect "business logic" to want to do these things to your phone, but Palm can't do all of them because they don't have the amount of engineers and money.


    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    You don't think that Palm can be both old and new at the same time? What is it with people who don't realize there's a multitude of variables involved with a company. Yes, Palm is new in the sense that it is more of a software company than a hardware company. But at the same time, Palm is still the old company that it was, releasing one killer device and only making minor upgrades every 12-18 months. I can assure you that the Pre won't receive any major upgrades until 2011, because there's not much more that the device needs. Memory upgrade to v1.5 will come next year. After that, who knows... but it's all very minor stuff that you wouldn't be able to differentiate from the Pre I've got right now, at least not in terms of practicality. Palm is just too small to be giving you everything that you want all in one whop. They need to release things in minor upgrades so that they can make a profit and can throw in hardware when it's most beneficial for them and their users as a whole. WiMax would be a great example. Palm is not gonna add that in their phones until 2011 at the earliest. They can't afford to put it in every single phone when not even half their customer-base will be able to use it until 2011. It only makes good business sense, ESPECIALLY when the Pre w/ Rev A is nearly as fast as with WiFi as it is. They're in it to milk every last dime they can, as well as they should be if they plan to stay in business. I wish they would give me a Pre with compass, OLED, and WiMax in 6 months... but getting WebOS to offload the majority of the CPU's processes to the GPU is their top priority for "upgrading" the Pre, I'm sure.
    Look at what you posted in the paragraph before this one. You harp on about "If Palm wants to stick around for very long . . . " and then harp on at staying competitive. I personally think Palm is the same company it always was in most facets. I am sure they would love to sit around and not invest in new hardware until 2011, but they just can't do that. The market is different in 2009 and 2010 than it was 5 or 10 years ago. If they refuse to upgrade their hardware while Android devices are coming out with higher resolution phones, or iPhones start implementing multitasking and faster processors, then why would anybody still want a Pre? I wouldn't. I would get the phone with more RAM, a Snapdragon processor and a high-resolution screen. How do you think the Pre 1.5 (what you are suggested) is going to compete with iPhone 4.0, or the Droid in 2010?

    But back to something else. You can't just selectively say where Palm is a new company and where they aren't. What do you base your claims on that they only will release a new phone every 18 months? Then how can you say they will soon fix all the problems with the current WebOS? You have nothing to base those things on. Me, personally, I won't give Palm the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong, which they haven't yet. You seem to call them a "new" company only where it is convenient to your myopia.


    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Yes, of course I see how the market works. That's why they are going to be putting everything they have into getting WebOS optimized for use with the GPU, as it has numerous benefits. A compass really doesn't benefit too many people, 4G doesn't benefit enough people, OLED screen would go unnoticed by most people unless they saw a spec sheet, etc. The Pre's hardware is better than most realize. Palm will be doing far more in terms of getting the software where they need it to be. Once the software is good enough, then they'll start giving you better hardware... but that's gonna take a while.
    Most people don't know what these technologies are, they just see the benefits of them. Most won't know what a GPU is, they will just notice that the thing is scrolling smoother. Most don't know what OLEDs are, they will just notice how much more vibrant and crisp it looks like next to an iPhone. People don't care about a compass, but it sure as hell makes Google Maps more useable. And people will certainly notice things like 4G speed, because the web browsing experience still isn't close to a desktop's speed. The closer you get to that, the happier people will be, no?


    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    If you have an OS that is nothing but graphics, like WebOS... and the CPU is maxed out at 100% from all these screen refreshes... enabling the GPU will seem like the Pre has a dual-core processor (or even a quad-core) from the speed bump you'll see. There will be NO LAG, and the battery life will increase dramatically. To go from lag at every tap to NO LAG could seem like you've got an infinite-core processor. :P
    WebOS is not "nothing but graphics." WebOS is an operating system. The GUI (Graphical User Interface) is nothing but graphics. Do not confuse the two. Most of the work going on under the hood isn't moving around objects on the screen. I want you to show me how it is "maxed out at 100% from all these screen refreshes." Back that up with evidence, or your entire argument here is worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    And I'd love to respond to donm directly, but I actually have to run again. Understanding how the CPU is taxed to the max by constantly redrawing the screen for the drop-down menus, for opening apps, for scrolling inside apps, for switching between cards, for card management in general.... will certainly help you out. Until you realize that the CPU is doing all that, when the GPU *will* be doing that with that one update will help you understand how WebOS will feel more like it has activated a dual-core processor with one software upgrade. TTFN.. Ta Ta For Now!
    Nobody is arguing with you that the CPU is doing all the work. We know it is. What we are arguing with you about is how much work that actually entails. Look, I know my gardener is planting all the flowers around my house. I know he is doing it. But I don't know how much work that actually takes. Is it just dropping some flowers in the ground? Is there all sorts of crazy hoeing, fertilization and cultivation going on? How long does it take him? These are the same things we are asking of you. Show us, with numbers (and proof) how much work the CPU is doing right now. You say understanding how the CPU is taxed will help us out. Please link me to a place where I can learn specifically about what you are talking about here.

    Look, I think I know what you are doing. You are just saying outlandish, unsubstantiated things, and we are all up in arms to argue against you. Your retort is just to make up more numbers. There is no hope arguing against that because you will just keep making things up. You are probably having a lot of fun doing that.
  6. #786  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    The GPU is used for animating the opening of the apps, not opening them. What do you base the "perceivable difference of greater than two times" on?
    This is what I've been trying to get across to you people ALL ALONG!! Opening the apps REQUIRES to slide the launcher up, to slide the launcher down, then to slide the app open. There's so much lag on the phone that I'm not sure you people even realize it's happening. ALL of the SLIDING TRANSITIONS will not pause and lag like they do now when the CPU is bogged down, that includes (hopefully this will sink in at some point): drop-down menus, opening the launcher, closing the launcher, opening apps, closing apps, card management, scrolling inside apps, flicking list items to the right to delete, etc. There are so many areas where I have mentioned SCROLLING as the primary benefit to the GPU drivers & hooks... and THAT is what Palm will be releasing, because THAT is how WebOS is primarily taxing the CPU.

    The rest of this conversation is moot, but I'll continue with a couple key points.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    Ok, since I lack the "logic" and "common sense" that you do, please explain to me a few things. Quantify how much power is being used by scrolling? How much power (in watts, amps, whatever you want) does it take to scroll a browser page down one full screen?
    A LOT. FAR MORE THAN IT TAKES TO USE A PAGE UP/DOWN BUTTON -- BY AN ORDER OR MAGNITUDE OR MORE. Surely, if you know anything about computers... you would know this to be true. And you would certainly know how to calculate such measurements.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    What you don't seem to realize is that Palm simply does not have the resources to do it, and do it well, in the next month or three.... to your phone, but Palm can't do all of them because they don't have the amount of engineers and money.
    What makes you think that Palm can't write GPU drivers and a few hooks into their OS in six to eight months?? How many man-hours would you guesstimate such a task?

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    Look at what you posted in the paragraph before this one. You harp on about "If Palm wants to stick around for very long . . . " and then harp on at staying competitive. I personally think Palm is the same company it always was in most facets. I am sure they would love to sit around and not invest in new hardware until 2011, but they just can't do that. The market is different in 2009 and 2010 than it was 5 or 10 years ago. If they refuse to upgrade their hardware while Android devices are coming out with higher resolution phones, or iPhones start implementing multitasking and faster processors, then why would anybody still want a Pre? I wouldn't. I would get the phone with more RAM, a Snapdragon processor and a high-resolution screen. How do you think the Pre 1.5 (what you are suggested) is going to compete with iPhone 4.0, or the Droid in 2010?
    Look, I hope your wrong and that next year we have the all-in-one device... but I just don't believe that to be so. They have been like a mini-Apple in respects to upgrades, and I see them as continuing that path. They don't have incredibly much more to offer (WiMax, compass, OLED, more internal memory, expandable memory slot). They will handle the memory problems with v1.5, guaranteed. After that... who knows, but I can assure you they won't be jamming the OLED screen, compass, & WiMax all into the v2.0 Pre. It'd just be silly. Perhaps OLED & WiMax sometime in early 2011... and then compass with the v2.5 Pre. Just my best guess. 2011 isn't too terribly long to wait. People have had their reason(s) for waiting this long for the Pre... and in all practical sense, an OLED screen, compass, & WiMax don't provide too many real benefits for people on a day to day basis. The OLED screen does, but whenever the GPU driver & hooks are released with that one software update... OLED's benefit won't be AS great... but I still think it'll be one of the first "real" hardware upgrades in late 2010, early 2011.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    But back to something else. You can't just selectively say where Palm is a new company and where they aren't. What do you base your claims on that they only will release a new phone every 18 months? Then how can you say they will soon fix all the problems with the current WebOS? You have nothing to base those things on. Me, personally, I won't give Palm the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong, which they haven't yet. You seem to call them a "new" company only where it is convenient to your myopia.
    They're only new in the fact that they're focusing on software. Palm only had the hardware right before, and now they've finally got the software to boot. They have an amazing OS, and it appears like they're putting ALL their resources into it. That's the only way that they're new is they're not working on a netbook OS, on WinMob phones, etc... just WebOS! They've finally gotten this vaporware out, and, personally, I like it. I still don't see them releasing hardware upgrades too terribly more often, however, due to their size and the NEED to continue tweaking the OS, get certain drivers working as it is (much less add new ones, like a compass), working with 3rd party developers, working with other manufacturers, carriers, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    Most people don't know what these technologies are, they just see the benefits of them. Most won't know what a GPU is, they will just notice that the thing is scrolling smoother. Most don't know what OLEDs are, they will just notice how much more vibrant and crisp it looks like next to an iPhone. People don't care about a compass, but it sure as hell makes Google Maps more useable. And people will certainly notice things like 4G speed, because the web browsing experience still isn't close to a desktop's speed. The closer you get to that, the happier people will be, no?
    No arguing with you there... but I disagree that people will "certainly notice things like 4G speed". It'd be tough for someone to distinguish between Rev A and WiFi at home already, so I don't see how you think someone is going to CLEARLY know they're on WiMax versus Rev A. People only notice it when it's on a spec sheet. They stroll around in the Sprint store, and they KNOW that the 5 MP camera takes better pics because it says 5 MP!! They've never actually seen the pics that it takes, but, CLEARLY, they know! Same for WiMax. You could put WiMax in the current Pre's spec sheet, and they'd have NO IDEA. They would simply look at the spec and go, "WOW! This is 4G. This is fast, yo! Let's buy it!"

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    WebOS is not "nothing but graphics." WebOS is an operating system. The GUI (Graphical User Interface) is nothing but graphics. Do not confuse the two. Most of the work going on under the hood isn't moving around objects on the screen. I want you to show me how it is "maxed out at 100% from all these screen refreshes." Back that up with evidence, or your entire argument here is worthless.
    Open up the command line and fool around with the graphical transitions if you want numbers. You'll figure it out soon enough.

    WebOS *is* nothing but graphics. (sorry for generalizing, but it needs to be done sometimes) There are so many transitions with sliding cards, sliding menus, fading cards, etc... and the CPU is putting more energy into that than it is running the javascript. If this crazy fast processor had no GUI, you could run 3 movies in one instant with the click of a button. It wouldn't pause for 5+ seconds before opening each one.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    Nobody is arguing with you that the CPU is doing all the work. We know it is. What we are arguing with you about is how much work that actually entails. Look, I know my gardener is planting all the flowers around my house. I know he is doing it. But I don't know how much work that actually takes. Is it just dropping some flowers in the ground? Is there all sorts of crazy hoeing, fertilization and cultivation going on? How long does it take him? These are the same things we are asking of you. Show us, with numbers (and proof) how much work the CPU is doing right now. You say understanding how the CPU is taxed will help us out. Please link me to a place where I can learn specifically about what you are talking about here.
    I only know this from experience. You can look at what's taxing the CPU yourself with the top command while root, I'd imagine. And since you already know that the CPU is doing all the work as it is... then surely you'd know that the GPU would take NO TIME AT ALL to do all the pretty sliding and fading transitions, which there are A LOT of. And if it takes the GPU *no* time to do these simple tasks, that doesn't leave the CPU with a whole lot to do, honestly. It would free so much space that it would APPEAR as if you had a dual-core machine, due to the nature of transitions (fading/sliding) found in WebOS' GUI.

    When limited to the CPU only, Javascript is not as slow as the GUI effects. That's just a fact of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    Look, I think I know what you are doing. You are just saying outlandish, unsubstantiated things, and we are all up in arms to argue against you. Your retort is just to make up more numbers. There is no hope arguing against that because you will just keep making things up. You are probably having a lot of fun doing that.
    What have I been making up? If you knew what I was doing, you wouldn't be arguing with me that the GPU would be used to open/close the launcher, open/close the apps. It would, just not in the way you're thinking of. After the GPU driver & hooks are implemented... the CPU will be FREE to only mess with javascript. As it is, the CPU is running the javascript and all the pretty effects, which include opening/closing the launcher, opening/closing apps, moving apps around, bringing down the drop-down menu. The CPU will then be doing real calculations of processes that gets things done, not pretty effects that the GPU will take over.

    Whew... back to sleep.
  7. #787  
    This thread is has grown tiresome beyond words. Clearly Grndslm must be heading up the WebOS development team, as he has detailed knowledge that no one outside of Palm could even begin to know. So any attempt at a rational discussion is pointless, because he clearly has all the answers.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  8. Shado.F's Avatar
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    #788  
    This conversation is longer than a Harry Potter book; chillax.
  9. UF15's Avatar
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    #789  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    I currently work at a mental health center and you know what i do with clients that want to spew stuff that you do?

    I smile at them, nod my head and keep on walking. I let them live in their world happily and not burst their bubble while I deal with reality.

    you can't see it but i'm smiling at you and walking away
    I should have done this two posts ago.
  10. #790  
    Is someone working on the cliffnotes version of grndslm's posts?
  11. #791  
    Yes... WebOS is virtually nothing but animations. There is a lot of sliding/scrolling taking place every time you tap something or flick something. I gave the specific instances where there is lag now and would be no lag. Getting the GPU working and a few hooks written into the OS would offload A LOT of work from the CPU to the GPU...

    Therefore... with one software update... your Pre will FEEL LIKE it has a dual-core processor. There will be only a TINY bit of lag when opening the calendar and contacts, but virtually none at all compared to what you see now. And it will save more battery life than you realize.

    But it will be SUBSTANTIALLY faster... and this is the same type of thing that the Palm devs look to be saying as can be seen at PreCentral.net. I think people are confusing their comment with 1.3.1, when in actuality, they're probly talking about an update ~6 months away.
  12. #792  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    I should have done this two posts ago.
    You could have just admitted that you didn't realize how many animations there were in WebOS. Sure WebOS is a lot of javascript... but the processor is wasting MORE time on animations & scrolling than the javascript. Enable the GPU to work with the WebOS animations... and you've "essentially", "kinda, but not exactly", "virtually" got a dual-core processor.
  13. Shado.F's Avatar
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    #793  
    Quote Originally Posted by likeobama View Post
    Is someone working on the cliffnotes version of grndslm's posts?
    Negative.
  14. #794  
    I really dont understand why people are trying to push this idea that allowing access to the GPU will be like a virtual ANYTHING.

    I like to envision it more like goin from the CPU handling most of the graphics leg work to getting help from the GPU. So it's kind of like a CPU and a GPU... no?

    I think some people just made a poor analogy and is refusing to give up on it. This is supposed to be a Pre vs Hero thread and digging through all this junk to try and help me make a decision by this weekend is becoming useless
  15. #795  
    Quote Originally Posted by osin83 View Post

    This is supposed to be a Pre vs Hero thread and digging through all this junk to try and help me make a decision by this weekend is becoming useless
    That's your problem right their. Just pick up a Hero or Pre and do 30 days on it. All these people including myself are just biased towards one or the other. I have heard A LOT of people complaining about crap that I could give 2 sh*ts about.
  16. #796  
    Welp, depends on how long you plan on keeping the device. The Pre has the guts to take a lot of updates and be improved. Though its not that durable and may need to be exchanged multitple times.

    The Hero seems durable enough but has inferior guts. You're relying on Sprint to approve updates. And HTC to provide updates to its UI.

    Depends on your needs which one has the best features. JMO but for what its worth, i've been a smartphone user for years now. Absent any other competition and sticking with sprint, i'd get a Palm Pre because and in no particular order:

    1. Cards multitasking.
    2. Notifications
    3. Integrated synergy i prefer.
    4. Form factor. Easy to use real kb. Great size screen. Looks sharp.
    5. Easy as pie patches & homebrew. Mytether makes it a mifi.
    6. Frequent updates. Having the OS & the hardware will become an even greater benefit for palm users as time goes on and android devices fragment further.
    7. This forum. Home of homebrew and very helpful. Weekly podcasts.
    8. Promise of flash, docs to go, etc. As well as sideloading. Wait til api's to the mic get put in. Callrec? The sdk will improve.
    9. Touchstone in car can be nice, Pre integrates well with BT stereos
    10. Browser is superior. UI is just much better.
    Last edited by cardfan; 11/05/2009 at 06:22 AM.
  17. #797  
    And cardfan is right about this --> you really do need to try both devices to discover the strengths and weaknesses of both. FWIW, I'll add my comments below.
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Absent any other competition and sticking with sprint, i'd get a Palm Pre because and in no particular order:

    1. Cards multitasking.
    Personal preference. I like the card method too, but Android works well and doesn't have the "too many cards" bugs.
    2. Notifications
    Personal preference. Android's notification system is more subtle. I didn't like it at first, but after living with it I actually prefer it.
    3. Integrated synergy i prefer.
    SenseUI has this already built-in, and so does Android 2.0. Works about the same in both webOS and Android.
    4. Form factor. Easy to use real kb. Great size screen. Looks sharp.
    The Pre wins here, although it's not a slam dunk.
    5. Easy as pie patches & homebrew. Mytether makes it a mifi.
    If you like to tinker with the OS, there's no question that you'll have more control with webOS. But you'll have less reason to tinker with Android because many of the webOS patches simply add options that are already built-in to Android. And Android can tether too.
    6. Frequent updates. Having the OS & the hardware will become an even greater benefit for palm users as time goes on and android devices fragment further.
    This must be largely taken on faith as this point. It's not the number of Android devices, but rather the "skins" like Blur and SenseUI that manufacturers put on top. There's no evidence yet that this will be a big problem. HTC/Sprint is about to release the first update for the Hero, so we'll see soon.
    7. This forum. Home of homebrew and very helpful. Weekly podcasts.
    Clear win for the Pre. The androidcentral forums are still underutilized. The phandroid podcast is, to be perfectly blunt, amateurish and of limited value. It's like listening to Bill and Ted with a dash of Spicoli. Like, uh, I mean, really, dude. Basically.
    8. Promise of flash, docs to go, etc. As well as sideloading. Wait til api's to the mic get put in. Callrec? The sdk will improve.
    Android is already there.
    9. Touchstone in car can be nice, Pre integrates well with BT stereos
    Touchstone is a great accessory, no doubt. If only using the phone and webOS was as consistently pleasing...
    10. Browser is superior. UI is just much better.
    Personal preference. This has been debated in other threads, so I won't rehash it here. I will say that in my own experience, Android/SenseUI is far and away more helpful and useful in my day-to-day activities than webOS is. If all I did was use the browser, maybe I'd feel differently.
    Last edited by doublebullout; 11/05/2009 at 12:38 PM.
    Powered by Palm since 1996...
    Palm Pilot > Palm V > Tungsten T > Trēo 650 > Centro > Prē > Prē F102

    ...gave up and switched to iPhone4 7/15/10
  18. #798  
    Quote Originally Posted by doublebullout View Post
    SenseUI has this already built-in, and so does Android 2.0. Works about the same in both webOS and Android.
    I am a huge Hero fan. I demo'd it for about a week before Sprint made it clear that I couldn't swap my Pre for a Hero. I prefer the Hero over the Pre.

    But, I have to disagree with this. IMHO contact linking on the Hero is nowhere near as nice as synergy is on the Pre. The Hero can link a contact to facebook, but the only data it will import from facebook is: birthday and picture. Synergy imports phone numbers, email, and other stuff that you store in facebook.

    Additionally, if you have more than one contact record in google, on the Pre you can link those contacts into one contact. On the Hero you can't. You can only link a google contact to facebook or flickr.

    There are a couple of things that the Hero's contact linking does better than Pre (IMHO). First, if you go look at a linked contact on the web version of google contacts, you'll see something like this in the notes:

    <sn>id:xxxxxxxxxx/friendof:yyyyyyyyyy</sn>

    Which means that contact linking on Hero survives a complete device wipe. On the Pre, if you manually link two contacts, you'll have to do it again after a device wipe.

    Second, the Hero will show you the friend's facebook status. Which the Pre doesn't show, at all anywhere.

    I'm hopeful that contact linking in Android 2.0 will fix some of the contact linking defecits that are in 1.5 (the version currently on the Hero).
    Twitter: dullgeek
  19. #799  
    I don't know if this is an interesting topic to others or not, but I felt that many pre owners would porbably wonder about the match up of pre vs her. I spent 2 weeks with the hero and took it back for a pre...I'm very happy with my pre. It is not as feature rich as the hero, the ui is less customizable, but I think its better. My girlfriend also got a hero an chose to keep it when I got the pre. Being the phone junky I am I had to compare side by side. I saw a few youtube videos on the subject but felt they were not doing a good job comparing browsers side by side, and the camera is a big deal to me. I did several speed tests downloading large myspace pages, and dozens of other pages. The palm pre loaded about 9 out of 10 pages faster, I actually timed them and the pre completely loaded pages on average 14 to 15 seconds faster than the hero, both very even on the quality the page was rendered, full desktop quality. Although the hero displays flash which is fun. I disabled plugins in the her browser and it disabled flash, the timed results were exactly the same...pre is way faster! One more thing to note is that the pinch to zoom is amazingly buggy on the hero so pre was faster, but also way easier to navagate around. Lastly, the camera on the hero takes slightly blurry pictures, although 5 magapixels, zoom feature, and auto focus, the pre takes more clear pictues, so when you zoom into a pictture you have taken, its very clear...in the proper lighting. I take alot of pictures of my 3yr old so I also enjoy the fact that the pre camera shoots them fast as my son is fast. I should note, for me, I care less about apps which the hero has plenty of, and I need great web browsing and good camera. But I do hope palm succeeds in the smartphone biz and makes alot more apps for palm users. Hopefully thi helps anyone who thinks or wishes they had the new hott stuff hero. The pre is better or worst, depending on what you want it for
  20. #800  
    <<moved to correct forum>>

    and,

    <<merged to already existing thread>>
    Just call me Berd.

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