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  1. #61  
    HTC Hero updated ROM looks pretty good to me:
    Android Simplicity: Hero Software Update

    This thing looks way faster than the Pre I have sitting in front of me
  2. Clack's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Key word here... framework. While I realize that webOS is an unfinished operating system, Android really only gives you half the work, and the rest needs to be added by each specific phone manufacturer (see SenseUI). There's a bunch of features that may affect some people (but not me personally) missing from webOS, but at least it's the complete operating system including a great UI.
    Framework: Please read up on what that means. Android is a complete product that already supports a wide variety of hardware. Framework in this context is broad product framework not merely platform.

    OEM have the further option of creating their own interface such as the HTC Hero.

    Palm has boxed themselves into a niche product and one that they are losing market share on and the pre isn't enough to save them.

    Also, the variety of hardware manufactures such as HTC and Samsung that know how to build quality devices cannot be understated.

    Palm really screwed up with the build quality of the Pre.
    "We must not contradict, but instruct him that contradicts us; for a madman is not cured by another running mad also." - Dr. An Wang
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronnienyc View Post
    HTC Hero updated ROM looks pretty good to me:
    Android Simplicity: Hero Software Update

    This thing looks way faster than the Pre I have sitting in front of me
    I like that video, but if the Pre has taught me anything, it's that such a display of speed means nothing. That may be the Hero after a fresh ROM install or right off a reset.

    I wanna handle one in a Sprint store after a bunch of people have messed with it all day and the widgets have been running for awhile.

    Let's see how snappy it is, then. If it stands the test and Palm doesn't get it it together by mid October...they'll be one more used Pre hitting the (considerable) secondhand market. Too bad the resale value on these devices is so-so.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    Palm really screwed up with the build quality of the Pre.
    No doubt about that.
    Ahem, here is mine:
    Palm Pre (Sprint) + Touchstone, 2 batts, leather case - eBay (item 200379951737 end time Sep-09-09 13:51:10 PDT)
  5. jewel's Avatar
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    #65  
    I would choose the Pre anytime of the day.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I like that video, but if the Pre has taught me anything, it's that such a display of speed means nothing. That may be the Hero after a fresh ROM install or right off a reset.

    I wanna handle one in a Sprint store after a bunch of people have messed with it all day and the widgets have been running for awhile.

    Let's see how snappy it is, then. If it stands the test and Palm doesn't get it it together by mid October...they'll be one more used Pre hitting the (considerable) secondhand market. Too bad the resale value on these devices is so-so.
    If speed is the only reason you "may" ditch the Pre then you may be disappointed with Android. I know i was.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    If speed is the only reason you "may" ditch the Pre then you may be disappointed with Android. I know i was.
    All I know is every practical video of the Hero is faster than the Pre I use daily.

    If my personal experience with the Hero matches that, why stay?
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    Framework: Please read up on what that means. Android is a complete product that already supports a wide variety of hardware. Framework in this context is broad product framework not merely platform.

    OEM have the further option of creating their own interface such as the HTC Hero.

    Palm has boxed themselves into a niche product and one that they are losing market share on and the pre isn't enough to save them.

    Also, the variety of hardware manufactures such as HTC and Samsung that know how to build quality devices cannot be understated.

    Palm really screwed up with the build quality of the Pre.
    Having used Android on the G1 and on my Nokia n800, it is not a complete product. Like everything Google does, it's got a great underlying framework in need of a ton of polish. Cupcake helps a ton, but quite frankly the ONLY way that it'll work for the general populace (read: non-technical user) is by having a complete UI overhaul like HTC has done with the Hero. It's not really much of an option but a necessity.

    And, I understand you hate Palm these days, but while there's an advantage to a variety of hardware manufacturers using software, there's also the opposite advantage. A great phone these days is about the combination of hardware and software - controlling every aspect of the software for your product instead of being given a framework and having to write on top of that can be a great advantage as well.

    As for the Pre's build quality, I agree that it's been an issue, but I think like all new devices it's been exaggerated in the echo chambers of the Internet. If you buy a new Pre, chances are you won't have any of the build quality issues, just like if you buy a iPhone 3GS chances are it's not going to overheat and melt the casing like a small number did.

    To get back on topic though... I absolutely love my Pre, and am not a fan of Android. As I've said before though, what's great is that very soon you'll have the choice of either. Try them both out, see which you prefer and pick the one that works for you. Smartphones are so personal that nothing else really makes sense.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Having used Android on the G1 and on my Nokia n800, it is not a complete product. Like everything Google does, it's got a great underlying framework in need of a ton of polish. Cupcake helps a ton, but quite frankly the ONLY way that it'll work for the general populace (read: non-technical user) is by having a complete UI overhaul like HTC has done with the Hero. It's not really much of an option but a necessity.

    And, I understand you hate Palm these days, but while there's an advantage to a variety of hardware manufacturers using software, there's also the opposite advantage. A great phone these days is about the combination of hardware and software - controlling every aspect of the software for your product instead of being given a framework and having to write on top of that can be a great advantage as well.

    As for the Pre's build quality, I agree that it's been an issue, but I think like all new devices it's been exaggerated in the echo chambers of the Internet. If you buy a new Pre, chances are you won't have any of the build quality issues, just like if you buy a iPhone 3GS chances are it's not going to overheat and melt the casing like a small number did.

    To get back on topic though... I absolutely love my Pre, and am not a fan of Android. As I've said before though, what's great is that very you'll have the choice of either. Try them both out, see which you prefer and works for you. Smartphones are so personal that nothing else really makes sense.
    indeed.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by berrabus@gmail.com View Post
    in short term however the Pre is a more powerful phone with a linux based os.
    The Hero also has a linux based OS.
  11. migs's Avatar
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    #71  
    Here is a "Dogfight" between the Hero and the Pre IMO, Pre gets the edge for now


    Part 1 http://www.phonedog.com/cell-phone-v...ht-part-1.aspx

    Part 2 http://www.phonedog.com/cell-phone-v...messaging.aspx

    Part 3 http://www.phonedog.com/cell-phone-v...d-wrap-up.aspx
    Last edited by migs; 09/03/2009 at 02:02 PM.
  12. fbcregan's Avatar
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    #72  
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I think the Pre is better than anything HTC could make. I've played with the Touch Pro and the G1 and I think they both are junk. I wouldn't buy an HTC no matter the OS. And I wasn't that impressed with Android either.
  13. Clack's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Having used Android on the G1 and on my Nokia n800, it is not a complete product. Like everything Google does, it's got a great underlying framework in need of a ton of polish. Cupcake helps a ton, but quite frankly the ONLY way that it'll work for the general populace (read: non-technical user) is by having a complete UI overhaul like HTC has done with the Hero. It's not really much of an option but a necessity.
    Well, I assume you are using pre-Cupcake (Android 1.5).

    Also, you completely mis-understand what Google delivers as a product as well as what it is meant by framework.

    WebOS is not complete and it is suffering some of the same underlying problems that a new platform shows. But worse, Palm had many lessons from the industry to draw on yet the made classical mistakes such as not having the SDK ready for release before the phone was released.

    And let's not forget the hardware... had the hardware been good: it sucks in terms of build quality.

    WebOS issues can be fixed, but a phone that won't last 2 months let alone 2 years without replacements is shameful.

    HTC, relative to Palm, builds much better hardware.

    And I suspect the Hero will overtake the Pre in Sprint sales as the App Market (should sprint leave it alone) is light years ahead of the Pre.
    "We must not contradict, but instruct him that contradicts us; for a madman is not cured by another running mad also." - Dr. An Wang
  14. Clack's Avatar
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    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by fbcregan View Post
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I think the Pre is better than anything HTC could make. I've played with the Touch Pro and the G1 and I think they both are junk. I wouldn't buy an HTC no matter the OS. And I wasn't that impressed with Android either.
    Analytically, that isn't true. But go ahead, share your unqualified opinion all you want. All one has to do is start with the bar vs. the slider: Palm didn't have the expirence to build a lasting slider phone. Next, we consider the cracking screen... all that folding creates stress points more prone to giving out... and coupled with the Touch Stone causing frequent thermal cycling... OH YES, WE HAVE WEAKING PLASTIC! Oh boy!

    Then we could get into the electronics....

    Anyway, HTC builds better hardware than palm.
    "We must not contradict, but instruct him that contradicts us; for a madman is not cured by another running mad also." - Dr. An Wang
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    Android will Kill the pre.... mostly because the pre hardware sucks and HTC builds better phones.
    I have had HTC phones and I liked them. But saying the Pre hardware sucks comparatively is pretty bs. If you're comparing the Pre, a slider, with any of the one-piece HTC's you're embarking on an unfair comparison. Comparing the Pre's hardware with that of HTC's sliders is a much fairer comparison- and, there, Palm's hardware is as good or better than HTC's TP. I've had both, and my TP wiggled more, the screen was crappier, and the chrome paint chipped all over. The keyboard was great, but was twice as big since it was a landscape keyboard.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by fbcregan View Post
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I think the Pre is better than anything HTC could make. I've played with the Touch Pro and the G1 and I think they both are junk. I wouldn't buy an HTC no matter the OS. And I wasn't that impressed with Android either.
    Would you buy an HTC device if it was branded as a Palm device? Palm clearly doesn't share your disgust with HTC and uses them to build the Treo Pro.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    Framework: Please read up on what that means. Android is a complete product that already supports a wide variety of hardware. Framework in this context is broad product framework not merely platform.

    OEM have the further option of creating their own interface such as the HTC Hero.

    Palm has boxed themselves into a niche product and one that they are losing market share on and the pre isn't enough to save them.

    Also, the variety of hardware manufactures such as HTC and Samsung that know how to build quality devices cannot be understated.

    Palm really screwed up with the build quality of the Pre.
    Not sure where all the love for the HTC devices is coming from. My last two phones prior to my pre were the 6700 (Titan) & 6800 (Mogul). I had 4 titans and 3 moguls. The headphone jack on the 6700 got me two replacements and two for keyboards. I had two moguls that the keyboards failed on and on the third I just replaced the screen was slowly peeling off.

    I can't really judge the pre on build quality yet since I've only had it three weeks.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    Analytically, that isn't true. But go ahead, share your unqualified opinion all you want. All one has to do is start with the bar vs. the slider: Palm didn't have the expirence to build a lasting slider phone. Next, we consider the cracking screen... all that folding creates stress points more prone to giving out... and coupled with the Touch Stone causing frequent thermal cycling... OH YES, WE HAVE WEAKING PLASTIC! Oh boy!

    Then we could get into the electronics....

    Anyway, HTC builds better hardware than palm.
    HTC's sliders are no better than the Pre's slider. Both TP's I had had MUCH more wiggle than my Pre does. While I've never had my Pre's screen break, I had to have my TP replace because it cracked when I leaned on it slightly. I loved my TP, but stating that HTC's hardware is better than Palm's without qualification is disingenuous.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    Well, I assume you are using pre-Cupcake (Android 1.5).
    Did you completely ignore the part where I clearly said "Cupcake helps a ton, but..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    Also, you completely mis-understand what Google delivers as a product as well as what it is meant by framework.
    Okay, you think that Android is a complete product, but too bad you didn't tell HTC that, they wouldn't have had to waste all that time and money developing SenseUI, and Motorola could quit working on their implementation and release something immediately as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    WebOS is not complete and it is suffering some of the same underlying problems that a new platform shows. But worse, Palm had many lessons from the industry to draw on yet the made classical mistakes such as not having the SDK ready for release before the phone was released.
    webOS, for all its flaws and issues (and don't get me wrong, there are still many) has a complete underlying structure and a great UI on top of it. So while there's plenty of room for improvement, it's not something like Android where it's missing a great UI and every single manufacturer has to code that from scratch. There's only one manufacturer in this case, so it's a little different, and they did write their own great UI, but it's part of the operating system, not something that is patched in on top of it like SenseUI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    And let's not forget the hardware... had the hardware been good: it sucks in terms of build quality.

    WebOS issues can be fixed, but a phone that won't last 2 months let alone 2 years without replacements is shameful.

    HTC, relative to Palm, builds much better hardware.
    As I already mentioned and you ignored again, the build quality issues are drastically overstated as they are for any product in online forums. Sure, on the Internet you'll get a ton of people complaining, but that doesn't mean a thing compared to the real world. My Pre, for example, has been rock solid since I bought it on June 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    And I suspect the Hero will overtake the Pre in Sprint sales as the App Market (should sprint leave it alone) is light years ahead of the Pre.
    That's great, it might do that, or it might not. But just because one phone is selling well doesn't mean that another is bad, or that there isn't a market for the other, or that it won't fit people's needs. Like I said, smartphones are very personal devices (more so than even computers, in my opinion), and what fits one person's needs could be completely useless for another.

    I hadn't intended to do a point-by-point rebuttal to each of your comments. It's probably not appropriate here at all because it's only peripherally related to the Pre vs the Hero, and at least one point (completeness of Android vs webOS) is just a simple disagreement, but on a bunch of your points, I just have to say, come on, let's be reasonable here.

    The fact is, the Hero does have a custom UI on top of it, so that negates the fact that the stock Android setup is incomplete in my opinion. That being said, it still is something that has no interest to me, but again for anyone considering the two, I highly encourage you to try both and decide for yourself.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    And, I understand you hate Palm these days, but while there's an advantage to a variety of hardware manufacturers using software, there's also the opposite advantage. A great phone these days is about the combination of hardware and software - controlling every aspect of the software for your product instead of being given a framework and having to write on top of that can be a great advantage as well.
    This has been one of my most enduring disappointments with the Pre thus far.

    If I told you Palm had a phone with the hardware of the Pre, but software-wise, they merely slapped a WebOS skin on top of Windows Mobile and had HTC make it, and it had no drivers and framework to use the GPU and had no SDK to leverage all of the device APIs...you'd say "Man, if only Palm made the phone themselves. That would really be something."

    But the cruel reality is that's what happened anyway, only WebOS is on top of Linux instead of Windows Mobile.

    Meanwhile, Android's openness and robust API has resulted in manufacturers creating several different flavors for users to choose from, apps like Layar Augmented Reality and Shazam utilizing ALL of the device hardware functionality and APIs, and an ondevice marketplace of 5,000+ apps and growing...

    ...all in less than a year with only one domestic carrier having the device thus far, with a pretty rosy year ahead too.

    I want to see Palm do something similar, but signs thus far aren't encouraging. We'll see.
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