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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Keeping everything within Apple's platform has worked for Apple so far--the iPhone and ipods lead their respective industries.

    Apple knows what it's doing.

    It knows that, despite your complaints, you'll come back soon begging for more.
    Funny, I've never owned an Apple product and done quite fine. So I doubt any time in the future that I'll go to them or even go back to them.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I suspect some of the users here are too young to completely understand the "history repeats itself" remark.

    Apple made a decision back in the 70's (ancient history in the computer world) to maintain a completely closed (and proprietary) architecture on their hardware. They did this so they could control all add-on devices and peripherals. It also helped them maintain a virtually bulletproof OS (no pesky outside configuration files, and eventually libraries, to worry about).

    IBM took the opposite route. Some say that was a mistake, and it may be debatable - it was great for the consumer, and especially for MicroSoft, but there's a reason you don't see as big a market share of IBM PC's (not IBM compatible, but IBM branded). They got swamped by clones and gave up. Apple did well... for a while.

    The problem though, isn't whether or not that was a good idea for Apple, or a bad idea for IBM (their decision really did all but kill off their consumer PC division). The problem is that the genie's out of the bottle. The consumer has come to demand interoperability, and that's not going to change.

    Apple is not going to succesfully grab the genie back, and stuff it in the bottle. It's really interesting to see the blowback that Apple is getting from folks that don't even have a Pre over this one.

    You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time...

    Couple of historical elements that I think may be of importance here. Originally, Apple was a very open company. The first Apple computers were actually open architectured. Remember the Apple II? They had expansion slots.

    Apple did a complete 180 when they introduced the Mac. -- Everyone who owns a computer must do it our way -- Hell, you couldn't even get a larger monitor. Then there's the famouse George Orwell 1984 Apple commercial which they used to introduce the Mac. The commercial actually had the audacity to imply that IBM was controlling while at the same time was used to introduce the new controlling Apple.

    Here's the commercial, have fun:
  3. #43  
    I have a Mac, but I'm not really sweating Apple's change in iTunes too tough. There's a simple fix for me. Dual boot into Wndows via Fusion. Include my album art into the ID3 tag via WMP or mediamonkey and I'm good. Not that big of a deal.
  4.    #44  
    Since we are on the Apple history kick, I will let you guys in on a little secret.

    I'm responsible for probably the most popular Apple related channel on Youtube. Mostly a bunch of old keynotes, interviews, etc, & a lot of stuff you wont find anywhere else (unless they copied it from me & uploaded it as their own).

    So, yeah. Told you I was a fan for a while.
  5. #45  
    I won't use mac, not since the late 80's.

    For every reason metioned here and more. The company has just turned into a bunch of nazi's. if you aren't with them your against them, and obviously your inferior for even thinking they might not be 100% the gospel truth. JOBS DOES NOT LIE.. aarrr.. i'm a mac zombie... that and marketing that just lies, and the stupid people that believe it, i mean OUT RIGHT LIES... and they get away with it. just.. just.. /me shakes head.

    pisses me off. rather put my own machine together thanks very much. take your drm and your stupid spy ware and **** off.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomD View Post
    Just get Missing Sync for Palm Pre.
    It syncs iTunes just fine.
    All in all the best Mac sync available.
    I am of much the same persuasion as the O.P. and have for some years used missing sync with a winmo device. Not the best or most seamless experience you could have. About 7 / 10.

    With regard to Apple generally, their hardware is nice, but its not the be all and end all of computing.

    Despite its UNIX platform, it really isn't a great option for power users of technology, (just like the iPhone wasn't / isn't although it is better now)

    There are many examples, such as not being able to upgrade firmware on a 3rd party device, lack of support from companies such as NAVMAN, the list is endless. Bottom line is, if you own a mac, (& there are 5 in my house) you better also own a PC for the real stuff.

    Some of the ***** that apple gets up to these days now though, is inconceivable. I get the feeling they probably make microsoft blush :-)
    HP200LX->Treo270->Treo600->Treo650->Treo680->Centro->iPhone3G->
    Treo680->TreoPro->iPhone3GS->PalmPre->HPPre2->HPVeer 2.2.3->HPPre3

  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbmgreen View Post
    Some of the ***** that apple gets up to these days now though, is inconceivable. I get the feeling they probably make microsoft blush :-)
    Or make them say "Why can't we do that? We did once."
  8. #48  
    Apple is showing some bad colors in this decision.. not wise PRPRPR $move$.. $not$ $at$ $all$.
  9. Cringer's Avatar
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    #49  
    How Does Ubuntu 9.04 Measure Up to Mac OS X? | Linux Magazine

    Make the change. I ditched Vista for Ubuntu, and despite the adjustments needed I am very happy with it. I dual boot just for those work related things I can't do in linux, but it is becoming less and less of a need. My Pre and Ubuntu get along well, too.
  10. #50  
    Well TBH I have been and would still be a Mac owner. Just that I have better things to do with the few precious dollars I have left in the year. (Food, Rent, Obama Fork it over ta...err green initiative-health care)

    I can't and won't justify getting a mac in this environment. That being said I did up until recently have an Iphone. But I didn't buy into the it's this way or else mentality of Apple and ATT. So that phone was unshackled and worked quite well on Tmo.

    Now was Itunes convenient to use with my nano and Iphone. Yes it was. Am I getting sick of what they are doing now with it, H3ll YEA!! We all knew Apple would do this. That was a given. What really is ticking people off is the way they are going about being so blatant about it. At this moment you have a big arse pissing match going on here with Palm and Apple. Sad to say in the long run Apple has much more here to lose for short term profit.

    It may have been a thorn in Apple's side to have the pre sync with Itunes. I get that. But was basically a bone tossed to the people who had itunes setup and needed a quick easy way to transfer their tunes to the Pre. It would have been much better for them to quietly tolerate this. Instead we have all this talk about what they a pushing down peoples throats. There must be soo much bad blood that Stevo said screw it crush them at all costs (gee where have I heard that before M$.. Nah can't be.)

    The one true thing that separates Macs from Pc's is OSX. That was the one thing they got right when they needed to. I have used multiple os's over time (NT4, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, Server 2008, various linux nix ect.) Heck I even took a gaming machine I have and turned that into a hackintosh. I know I know I blaspheme. As much as I love OSX I won't be held back by one company. What they are doing now will not and shall not encourage any more support for getting a new Apple product. It won't happen now but watch. If they keep this stuff up one or two things will happen. One, Apple repeats itself and get marginalized by their tactics. Two, the EU finally gets ticked off enough to say to Apple "Either separate the OS from the product or say good bye to all of Europe including the Iphone." One is more likely to happen, the other could if this seems to get out of hand. Though I would love to see Jobs face turn all sorts of colors like his logo when the EU tells him this.
  11. SharonW's Avatar
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    #51  
    Wow. All of this takes me back to all my Apple memories. Outside of the iconic sledge hammer at Big Brother IBM commercial, back when I knew little of Apple versus IBM or whence came Windows. My first actual home computer was, believe it or not, an Atari. Yeah, weird, huh?

    I found it on a clearance shelf at Sears for $200 and thought it must be a mistake! A computer with a dot matrix printer in the late 80's for $200 that actually did word processing? I bought it and hooked it up to an old B&W TV for a monitor and it worked.

    Next computer was an old, used IBM AT I bought from a friend who owned a medical software company for, yet again, $200. Now I was cooking. It did word processing and bookkeeping and "HOLY CRAP" I could play games on it?

    Finally, it was Xmas '95. I wanted one of those cool new colored-screen computers with GUI's and these things called mouses. I thought it especially important because my son was eight and it seemed he'd need to know how to use a computer in his future. I was really going to make an investment in that future given computers had come down to the magical, yet still incredibly painful price of about $2,000.

    I went to CompUSA and bought an Apple having no clue that it was anything different from a PC. I thought it just a name brand. I adored it out of the box. Super easy to use. Made sense. And then I went to CompuUSA to buy software...a game for my son, and was directed to two aisles out of a myriad of software for PC aisles. I was stunned. This is all you can get for an Apple?!?! Needless to say, I returned it and bought a PC. Thus was my first encounter.

    I replace it with a Compaq and it was nowhere near as intuitive as the Apple out of the box, but I adjusted and learned. I "got" the difference, but given the lack of software, especially for gaming, I couldn't justify going back to Apple.

    Years on the internet later, I was getting all my music via file sharing of one sort or another. The record companies disgusted me with how they fought doing something as simple as single songs over the internet for 99 cents. The greedy pigs utilizing copyright rules as they were so never intended by original copyright laws. That they were so out of touch with the massive shift going on with rights retention to anything that could be turned into 1's and 0's was beyond me. Moreover, I blamed them for plummeting CD sales due to their stranglehold on the industry and attempts to shove generic, bubble-gum, overly produced and manufactured artists down our throats.

    When Apple broke the barrier and actually got through to these music executives to create iTunes, I applauded them. I had to wonder what they said to these executives that was different from any other seeking to capitalize on this. And I forgave Apple for their DRM assuming they had to do this in order to get the music industry on board to begin with.

    Nonetheless, I still wasn't going to pay for something I could only listen to on my computer nor would I pay hundreds for a separate device to do so. I use Amazon MP3, Amazon got it right from the start. That is how Apple began and now, it seems they're reverting. They're becoming like the music industry itself, resisting an alternative method of listening to music if they can't control what listen to it with or how you do it!

    And, again, just like the music industry, they're cutting off their noses to spite their faces. They're eliminating the potential of new music purchasers who simply don't purchase their brand of music player all the while alienating some of their own customers by erecting a gate on the community.

    Kinda reminds me of Disney's Celebration, a master-planned community in Florida. If you're not familiar with it, google it. The Palm Pre is to Apple as pink flamingos are to Celebration.
  12. #52  
    Just rockbox whatever apple portable player you own. Better user interface more functionality etc, etc, etc............. Or not. I Touch, Zune, Nano, gigabeat etc..... The product should be a slave to you, not the other way around. MHO
  13. #53  
    Not all customers are worth keeping, especially if those customers will cost you more money down the road. It's a mistake for any business to operate under the myth that 'the customer is always right.'. No business can please everyone, you have to pick and choose. Apple isn't repeating past mistakes. What they're simply doing is refusing to cater to nerdy individuals who are technoligally literate enough to be aware of what's going on to be pissed off in the first place. That's an extremely small percentage of the general population. The idea that Apple is screwing itslef over here by locking out the Pre from iTunes is wishful thinking of the most blatant variety. Apple makes products for 'the rest of us'. That explicitly excludes the vast majority of folks who register for tech site forums (like this one), dabble with Linux to any extent and care anything at all over whether their music files are DRM free or not. Most people don't even know what Linux and DRM are to begin with.

    So if you were running a company which customer base would you focus on? The small number of militant geeks or the general public which outnumbers them by several orders of magnitude?
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by NDPTAL85 View Post
    ...
    So if you were running a company which customer base would you focus on? The small number of militant geeks or the general public which outnumbers them by several orders of magnitude?
    I disagree with much of your post. Not the overall observations, but the underlying premises and the final conclusion.

    Talk about marketing and customer base asssumes that there will be a large number of people that base their decision about the Pre, one way or the other, on whether or not it will transfer files using iTunes. I don't think that's the case.

    Personally, I believe it was more of a "Look what we're able to do" that was very easy for Palm to implement, probably because of inside knowledge of the iPod from their management and engineering teams. No matter that Apple has now closed that, Palm got to make the claim. That was a one-up for them, with virtually no negative blowback over it.

    Now Apple has closed that claim, but it's a bit late out of the park (for now). Palm already got to use the bragging rights, and they've since moved on to other things that will generate buzz about the Pre, - the release of the SDK, upcoming Canada and Europe releases, updated WebOS, and expanded App Store (soon, we hope).

    So, Apple's closing of the ability will really have only a minor impact on the Pre, but it has generated a lot of negative publicity about Apple.

    In addition, the action on Apple's part has focused more attention on Pre, and made it appear that even Apple considers them a serious contender.

    So, Apply took a negative hit on the PRPRPR $area$, $in$ $order$ $to$ $put$ $a$ $minor$ $ding$ $on$ $a$ $supposedly$ $minor$ $competitor$. $Personally$, $I$ $don$'$t$ $view$ $this$ $as$ $a$ $win$ $for$ $Apple$ $at$ $all$, $and$ $only$ $a$ $very$ $minor$ $loss$ $to$ $Palm$.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    ...

    So, Apply took a negative hit on the PRPRPR $area$, $in$ $order$ $to$ $put$ $a$ $minor$ $ding$ $on$ $a$ $supposedly$ $minor$ $competitor$. $Personally$, $I$ $don$'$t$ $view$ $this$ $as$ $a$ $win$ $for$ $Apple$ $at$ $all$, $and$ $only$ $a$ $very$ $minor$ $loss$ $to$ $Palm$.
    hparsons, what makes you feel Apple was trying to 'win' this one? I've read your entire post but struggle with some of the logic. Can you clarify how Apple was trying to bait Palm so they could win? I think it will be impossible to get consensus on whether Apple's reaction was right/wrong and if it hurt them more than it hurt Pal (or vice versa).

    But there shouldn't be that much disagreement on the fact that Pal engaged (or some might say taunted) Apple on this issue. Once engaged, Apple had to decide if they would react, and if so in what way. The fact that they chose to react the way they did does not give us much insight into whether they view Palm as a minor or major competitor. No other competitor has done what Palm did and so we have no precedent.

    And yes, Apple will take some negative PRPRPR $hit$ $on$ $this$ $but$ $any$ $response$ $or$ $lack$ $thereof$ $would$ $generate$ $bad$ $PR$ $for$ $them$. $Maybe$ $that$$s$ $what$ $Palm$ $wanted$.
  16. #56  
    I use Macs at work and I'm thinking about buying a new laptop... though, every day I keep saying to myself I hope it is a Windows 7 laptop, because Apple is evil like that.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by SharonW View Post
    Wow. All of this takes me back to all my Apple memories. Outside of the iconic sledge hammer at Big Brother IBM commercial, back when I knew little of Apple versus IBM or whence came Windows. My first actual home computer was, believe it or not, an Atari. Yeah, weird, huh?
    Same here Saved my allowance for a year (and got a lil help from the parents) and still couldn't afford the Commodore 64, so I bought an Atari 800XL for 1/2 the cost of a C64 at Federated in Dallas. Soon found that if you didn't have a C64, you were a pariah in the nerd computer community. I kind of liked that. I actually bought an 800XL + disk drive off of eBay a few years ago, just need to find somewhere to set it up. And ... err ... some old floppies I guess. Why the hell did I buy that thing?!?
  18. #58  
    I decided to take action personally, in response to Apple. I downloaded a wonderful open source client called "doubleTwist". It is actually partially created by the infamous "DVD John". It plays well with the Pre, iPods, BlackBerries, etc. When I got home last night, and after some dinner, I sat down and hooked up my Pre on my Windows laptop and opened iTunes. I then deleted all of the iTunes synced information from my Pre. Next, I opened up doubleTwist and synced up my Pre with it. It was a flawless experience for me. And a plus of this is the ability to import YouTube videos into doubleTwist, allowing for syncing with your Pre (or media device of choice).

    I will continue to use my Mac with iTunes to sync my iPod Touch, but I will no longer use iTunes to purchase the bulk of my music. Amazon works well, it's device neutral, and that is good enough for me.

    Oh, and for some nostalgia, I bought for $50, a TI 99-4a from Sears. That was when Texas Instruments originally decided to depart from the home computing arena, back in the late 70's if I recall the time frame accurately. I loaded a pretty good game called "Tunnels of Doom" via a data grade cassette recorder. Oh, the memories....
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Really mobile View Post
    hparsons, what makes you feel Apple was trying to 'win' this one? I've read your entire post but struggle with some of the logic. Can you clarify how Apple was trying to bait Palm so they could win? I think it will be impossible to get consensus on whether Apple's reaction was right/wrong and if it hurt them more than it hurt Pal (or vice versa).
    I didn't mean "win" as in beat someone else, but "win" as in do something that has more positives for them than negatives. I have no doubt that any action Apple took (or any deliberate inaction) was meant to "win" in that connotation.

    I didn't mean to imply that Apple was trying to "bait" Palm (not even sure how you came to that conclusion, but regardless, it wasn't what I meant). Again, the "win" wasn't meant in a competitive sense, but a "more good than bad" sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Really mobile View Post
    But there shouldn't be that much disagreement on the fact that Pal engaged (or some might say taunted) Apple on this issue. Once engaged, Apple had to decide if they would react, and if so in what way. The fact that they chose to react the way they did does not give us much insight into whether they view Palm as a minor or major competitor. No other competitor has done what Palm did and so we have no precedent.

    And yes, Apple will take some negative PRPRPR $hit$ $on$ $this$ $but$ $any$ $response$ $or$ $lack$ $thereof$ $would$ $generate$ $bad$ $PR$ $for$ $them$. $Maybe$ $that$$s$ $what$ $Palm$ $wanted$.
    I don't know that I agree with the last part. I think no response, or even a "Fine, if they want to hook up their phone to buy our songs, that's great" would have been better than what they did.

    The first statement though, I know that I totally disagree with. Apple rewriting one the software that handles one of their primary business models to close this particular issue, especially in light of the simmering competition between the two companies, definitely makes it at least appear that they view Palm as a potential big competitor in this area.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    Same here Saved my allowance for a year (and got a lil help from the parents) and still couldn't afford the Commodore 64, so I bought an Atari 800XL for 1/2 the cost of a C64 at Federated in Dallas. Soon found that if you didn't have a C64, you were a pariah in the nerd computer community. I kind of liked that. I actually bought an 800XL + disk drive off of eBay a few years ago, just need to find somewhere to set it up. And ... err ... some old floppies I guess. Why the hell did I buy that thing?!?
    Wow, I started to respond to SharonW's post, and thought "naw, way too 'off-topic'", but then saw this and the memories came flooding back, so figured I'd have to now.

    I used to be part owner of a computer store in the DFW area that specialized in the Atari computers (we sold PC clones as well, had to survive somehow). I had worked at Federated in a few of the stores and eventually their corporate offices. Partnered up with another employee from Federated when they went under, and we brought in a third guy that took care of repairs. Megabyte Computers in Hurst. Those were the days...
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