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  1. #61  
    The reason Apple does not allow multitasking is to prevent interference with its UI smoothness and battery life, while giving priority to its own background apps, such as the iPod.

    On the Pre, a background app is not necessarily active. The difference between a Pre app being in this state and an iPhone app that's saved state and has exited is almost immaterial. One has its data in memory, the other has committed it and exited. Where that committed memory is on the iPhone I don't know. Now, the Pre can in principle be faulted for being somewhat inefficient in retaining memory that's not being used, but since memory retention is a problem only with multitasking, it's a false argument.

    Notifications scenarios are more interesting. The iPhone now has push notifications primarily needed for IM applications. From the book, Palm is in fact creating the same infrastructure for push notifications, but I don't think it's being used yet. It makes sense that all apps use a single polling channel to conserve battery and bandwidth. Here again, there is no appreciable difference between receiving a notification and launching the handling app, vs. switching to that app in memory.

    But there is a big difference when it comes to the app minimized state. I find that it's absolutely essential to have minimized controls available when notifications are shown. The iPhone notifications cannot match this, because it would mean running another app concurrently. The most you get is a generic notification, which you have to respond to in order to perform a task, taking you out of your current app. Sure, it's fast, but it's distracting, especially because it requires one to come back to the launcher and remember to return to the last application used.

    Internal notifications: it's still not possible for applications to register their own timed notifications, such as reminders. Tasks applications that are unable to remind users of items are the main problem here, this is a core PIM function taken away. There is nothing that can be done on the iPhone for them. On the Pre, any app can register alarms and respond to them. That is, not only remind users, but also wake itself from sleep to perform tasks.

    Finally, continuous background processes such as music playback or navigation are obviously not amenable to notification workarounds. Yes, the iPhone will switch out of nav to an incoming phone conversation, but I'd want to keep hearing instructions and view the route while talking. There is also downloading and buffering streaming data in the background. There is nothing that would work in the current iPhone paradigm for these scenarios.

    So in reviewing these, Apple's argument against background processes pertains not to inactive apps, but precisely to the kind of operations that the user is explicitly interested in performing, such as streaming music and using navigation. Apple has chosen to deny these features, and its justification is not particularly sound and in fact appears more commercially motivated.

    Lastly, where is the evidence? Multitaskers such as BlackBerry, Nokia and WinMo devices have no worse battery life than the iPhone.
    Last edited by sivan; 07/01/2009 at 03:14 PM.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  2. #62  
    - RSS Readers
    - podcast/vidcast downloads
    - 3rd party VPN Clients
    - 3rd party remote system monitoring/alerts
    - 3rd party e-mail clients
    - 3rd party web browsers
    - twitter clients
    - Any 3rd party auto-backup software

    Do I need to keep going? Granted some of these are down the line but at least they are possible with webOS.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Internal notifications: it's still not possible for applications to register their own timed notifications, such as reminders. Tasks applications that are unable to remind users of items are the main problem here, this is a core PIM function taken away. There is nothing that can be done on the iPhone for them.
    The rest of your post is spot on, but this is just wrong.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The reason Apple does not allow multitasking is to prevent interference with its UI smoothness and battery life, while giving priority to its own background apps, such as the iPod.

    On the Pre, a background app is not necessarily active. The difference between a Pre app being in this state and an iPhone app that's saved state and has exited is almost immaterial. One has its data in memory, the other has committed it and exited. Where that committed memory is on the iPhone I don't know. Now, the Pre can in principle be faulted for being somewhat inefficient in retaining memory that's not being used, but since memory retention is a problem only with multitasking, it's a false argument.

    Notifications scenarios are more interesting. The iPhone now has push notifications primarily needed for IM applications. From the book, Palm is in fact creating the same infrastructure for push notifications, but I don't think it's being used yet. It makes sense that all apps use a single polling channel to conserve battery and bandwidth. Here again, there is no appreciable difference between receiving a notification and launching the handling app, vs. switching to that app in memory.

    But there is a big difference when it comes to the app minimized state. I find that it's absolutely essential to have minimized controls available when notifications are shown. The iPhone notifications cannot match this, because it would mean running another app concurrently. The most you get is a generic notification, which you have to respond to in order to perform a task, taking you out of your current app. Sure, it's fast, but it's distracting, especially because it requires one to come back to the launcher and remember to return to the last application used.

    Internal notifications: it's still not possible for applications to register their own timed notifications, such as reminders. Tasks applications that are unable to remind users of items are the main problem here, this is a core PIM function taken away. There is nothing that can be done on the iPhone for them. On the Pre, any app can register alarms and respond to them. That is, not only remind users, but also wake itself from sleep to perform tasks.

    Finally, continuous background processes such as music playback or navigation are obviously not amenable to notification workarounds. Yes, the iPhone will switch out of nav to an incoming phone conversation, but I'd want to keep hearing instructions and view the route while talking. There is also downloading and buffering streaming data in the background. There is nothing that would work in the current iPhone paradigm for these scenarios.

    So in reviewing these, Apple's argument against background processes pertains not to inactive apps, but precisely to the kind of operations that the user is explicitly interested in performing, such as streaming music and using navigation. Apple has chosen to deny these features, and its justification is not particularly sound and in fact appears more commercially motivated.

    Lastly, where is the evidence? Multitaskers such as BlackBerry, Nokia and WinMo devices have no worse battery life than the iPhone.
    It sounds like you're saying that receiving a Push alert on the iPhone automatically quits whatever app you were using when the notification came in -- This is not true. You can choose to close the dialog (kind of like "ok, thanks, get out of my way") or you can switch to the app from the dialog.

    I might be misreading your post though.
  5. stubbs's Avatar
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    #65  
    The biggest help for me, like it's been stated above, is the ability to look at an incoming message without interrupting what I'm doing in another application. when I'm done with the message or alert, I can switch right back to the browser or calendar and pick up where I left off.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by jsbaugh View Post
    I see no advantage to being able to swap batteries.
    I know I'm feeding the trolls and this one can't even stay on topic but......

    What about when your non-user replaceable battery starts to wear out and stops performing optimally? You don't have to need multiple batteries to know a user replaceable battery is a good thing. Apple has been dogged about this since the very first iPod. Why they refuse to provide this basic function is a mystery to me.
    Palm Pre
    (formerly TouchPro, iPhone 3G, Curve, 8800, Treo800p, E61, N9300, Treo 700p ,Treo 600, I500, I330, Treo 300, I300, 6035)
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Wirelessness View Post
    What about when your non-user replaceable battery starts to wear out and stops performing optimally? You don't have to need multiple batteries to know a user replaceable battery is a good thing. Apple has been dogged about this since the very first iPod. Why they refuse to provide this basic function is a mystery to me.
    I don't know why it's a mystery: It's so people get a new iPod or iPhone. They don't think "hey, my battery is bad, I should get a device with a user replaceable battery", they think, "my iPod's battery only lasts a few hours, I want the new iPod anyway, I'll just get that."

    BTW, I never hold onto phones long enough to notice battery degradation over time. Non issue for me since I'm usually near a plug and my 3GS gets great battery life.
  8. #68  
    Your right...it's not really a mystery.
    Palm Pre
    (formerly TouchPro, iPhone 3G, Curve, 8800, Treo800p, E61, N9300, Treo 700p ,Treo 600, I500, I330, Treo 300, I300, 6035)
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Badandy127 View Post
    I don't know why it's a mystery: It's so people get a new iPod or iPhone. They don't think "hey, my battery is bad, I should get a device with a user replaceable battery", they think, "my iPod's battery only lasts a few hours, I want the new iPod anyway, I'll just get that."

    BTW, I never hold onto phones long enough to notice battery degradation over time. Non issue for me since I'm usually near a plug and my 3GS gets great battery life.
    That's exactly it and one of three reasons I don't own an iPhone. I have two iPods sitting at home now that are useless as mobile devices because they won't hold a charge worth a damn anymore.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellneuron View Post
    it is really interesting that those palm users who used to argue against multitasking now have to be on the opposite side.
    Just like its interesting how those Apple users argued apps are not necessary, web apps are all we need. Now they have the AppStore!
  11. #71  
    Wow, this is the best flame war we've had on here in a good while.

    I'd just like to add that the reason I have a Pre is because the iPhone was so good. I've wanted an iPhone for a while, but I was stopped by AT&T and the virtual keyboard. The Pre gives me much of the iPhone goodness, plus some goodness of its own, and allows me to stay on Sprint. I enjoyed my 755p, and it was very capable, but the iPhone is aesthetically pleasing in ways the 755p could never be. I also like Palm and am a sucker for an underdog story.

    In short, I appreciate the beauty of both devices. The iPhone is great, the Pre is great.

    I also love reading the flame wars. It's better than reality tv. So flame on!
  12. road_kill's Avatar
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    #72  
    There fixing how the pages load. Palm is working on an update to fix the slowness of the app load time to make it faster. It will be in the next 3 major updates.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan
    It's simple really. Stuff like running Pandora and Sprint Nav while driving my car... what's so hard to understand?
    Quote Originally Posted by jsbaugh View Post
    Guess what. I can do all that on an iphone...
    the thing is, you really can't unless you've jailbreaked your phone....

    you can listen to pandora on the background? not so much...

    navigation? i don't know about the v 3 of the os, but v2 definately could NOT run 3rd party gps apps- namely gps loggers -in the background? the early reviews of at&t navigator (edit: and navigon) for iphone (telenav) also say the routing stops when a call comes in.
    Last edited by PoundSand; 07/01/2009 at 09:55 PM.
  14. #74  
    Multitasking and turn-by-turn navigation.....? The iPhone can't even do turn-by-turn navigation let alone the text to speech navigation the Pre can do? People are so concerned about which device can multitask better. This is the Killer App that the iPhone can't even uni-task!!!
    Palm Pre
    (formerly TouchPro, iPhone 3G, Curve, 8800, Treo800p, E61, N9300, Treo 700p ,Treo 600, I500, I330, Treo 300, I300, 6035)
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Wirelessness View Post
    Multitasking and turn-by-turn navigation.....? The iPhone can't even do turn-by-turn navigation let alone the text to speech navigation the Pre can do? People are so concerned about which device can multitask better. This is the Killer App that the iPhone can't even uni-task!!!
    The iPhone has turn by turn navigation. God, do you people even check up on the assertions you make or do you just make them and hope they're right?
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Wirelessness View Post
    Multitasking and turn-by-turn navigation.....? The iPhone can't even do turn-by-turn navigation let alone the text to speech navigation the Pre can do? People are so concerned about which device can multitask better. This is the Killer App that the iPhone can't even uni-task!!!
    the first couple turn by turn apps (navigon and att navigator (telenav)) have just come out for the iphone, and tom tom should be out in a month or so. (both navigon and telenav are $10/month though; no pricing on tom tom yet)

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbaugh View Post
    I fly a lot and all the flights have power under the seats.
    you either don't fly a lot, or you're always taking the same flight if you think all the flights have power under the seats.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Badandy127 View Post
    The iPhone has turn by turn navigation. God, do you people even check up on the assertions you make or do you just make them and hope they're right?
    You're right I got my facts wrong. I know it has been something iPhone users have wanted for the last 2 years. Since AT&T Navigator was JUT RELEASED LAST WEEK I must have missed it...sorry.

    You forgot to mention the best part though...AT&T only charges $9.99/mo for the privilege of using this long awaited feature.
    Palm Pre
    (formerly TouchPro, iPhone 3G, Curve, 8800, Treo800p, E61, N9300, Treo 700p ,Treo 600, I500, I330, Treo 300, I300, 6035)
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Badandy127 View Post
    The rest of your post is spot on, but this is just wrong.
    What's wrong about it? Can a tasks app such as RTM or OmniFocus remind you of tasks (without filling iCal with appointments)? Can an app periodically wake itself to do some background processing?

    Read and educate yourself:
    http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=12654

    Apple simply doesn't get it. A freaking smartphone that can't set reminders.

    Again, where is the evidence concerning battery life? The iPhone's battery life is no better than other smartphones.
  19. Minsc's Avatar
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    #79  
    On the topic of app-switching: While I haven't had a chance yet to use a 3GS, I'll take Badandy's (and others) word for it that you can switch applications as fast (or almost as fast) as you can on a Pre. But for me it's not just about the speed... Maybe it’s the geek in me, but there's something subtle I really like about being able to see all my running apps (cards) and flip between them - I haven't been able to put my finger on it yet, but conceptually I really like how I can "see" everything that's going on. Having to jump back to the home screen and re-launch to apps every time I want to switch just doesn't "feel" as good to me. There's a greater level of control (or at least it feels that way) with the WebOS design.

    Obviously that's 100% user preference speaking, but for me I really like the task-switching design on WebOS - regardless of how many milliseconds faster or slower it is than the iPhone. (the iPhone could be instantaneous and I'd still prefer webOS for task switching)
    Last edited by Minsc; 07/02/2009 at 08:07 AM.
  20. samid's Avatar
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       #80  
    I am really surprised at some of the responses I got to this post. I know what multitasking is and how it applies to a modern computer. My question was, why is the pre considered to have multitasking and the iphone not. The pre does not behave like a computer at all. Surely your computer does not pause Youtube or Navigation when you minimize it. The iphone and the pre behave very much the same. Both have certain applications that allow for true multitasking, yet the iphone still preforms better. The iphone can multitask email and music and web, and like the pre, it will pause youtube if you switch out if it (or minimize it). In fact, i somewhat feel that the pre has just about as much multitasking as the old PalmOS. The main difference is that now the webbrowers multitasks. Even on the old PalmOs system apps like email, music, alarm clocks still ran in the background. So what is the fine line between actual multitasking and app switching, and please do NOT compare the pre multitasking to a computers multitasking. They are totally different! Your computer never automatically pauses and app!
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