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  1. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    That's where the iPhone's dominance is starting to pay off a bit. There's a new variation on "mobile friendly" websites, and that's websites that are optimized for the iPhone. What I'm uncertain of is how many of those iPhone-optimized sites will display perfectly on the pre. Can someone try that out? I suspect that there will be issues, because these sites may be checking specifically if the the device is an iPhone and displaying that version of the site only for iPhones. There may also be issues with these sites using iPhone-specific HTML tags that the pre's browser may not be compatible with.

    I'd really love to know the answer to this, because if the pre can display most/all iPhone-optimized websites, that's great. Otherwise, it's a big disadvantage for the pre, and advantage for the iPhone because, again, like it or not, the iPhone is now the dominant platform, so you can expect to see more and more companies create iPhone-optimized views for their websites.
    All the ones I've gone to so far have worked well. I've not really seen any big formatting issues, adn they all connect fine due to the fact that they're both based on webKit I believe.
  2. #62  
    I have both phones right now. I can do an honest, unbiased comparison as i'm really not a fanboy of either but am mindful of which forum i'm on (something i wish people would consider..you try going on a Louisville forum and tell people how great UK is..you'll get kicked usually. Obviously i don't like sports fans who are so loyal they can't criticize the home team, but noone likes putting up with a rival fan who just exists to troll).

    Hardware: Iphone wins this game for me. The Pre feels good in hand but slide that kb open and it feels like you're typing in a plastic cup. I wonder if the Pre floats? I'd only be lying if i said i didn't want better quality materials. Why couldn't Palm at least use the Touchstone back material for the whole phone? Shiny rules i guess.

    Software: WebOS rules in a landside..or at least what it should look like a year from now. Multitasking/notifications is what makes it easy to live with.

    Carrier: Sprint of course. But given the reception problems of the Pre, this isn't an advantage right now. Cost wise, we know Sprint rules..but...

    Apps: Want to bring that total cost of ownership down? We talk about AT&T's insane monthly plans, but iphone apps are CHEAP. Despite a glut of useless ones that we can't just put on ignore, there's more than enough good ones. Although i would argue you only use so many at a time, so sheer numbers won't mean as much 6 months from now.

    But back to cheap. If you own an ipod or multiple iphones, your iphone apps can go on there. This isn't stealing or piracy, its what Apple allows. This isn't so for Palm (and rightfully so perhaps). We've still no idea of what apps will run for with Palm either..but i'm not expecting iphone app like pricing.

    Copy n Paste: This sucks on the Pre. Might have sounded good on paper but i still haven't gotten used to it.

    Unfinished features: Or unpolished? Whatever, but name a feature in the Pre and it needs updated. We're not just waiting for bug fixes (reception!!) but we're waiting for finished apps..every app.

    Bottom line:

    I got a wife's Pre to consider. A family plan on sprint is much cheaper. But if i had to pick one phone right now to last me another year, the iphone 3G S wins easily...and with the Pre's current reception problems...it's not even a contest. Frankly, i'm still debating and awaiting to see if any problems get addressed.
  3. #63  
    You know I hope all these platforms do well. It would be great to have lots of apps on all smartphones available. I suspect this will occur provided enough of the different OS systems get enough users. This would be a win win for everyone!
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I have both phones right now. I can do an honest, unbiased comparison as i'm really not a fanboy of either but am mindful of which forum i'm on (something i wish people would consider..you try going on a Louisville forum and tell people how great UK is..you'll get kicked usually. Obviously i don't like sports fans who are so loyal they can't criticize the home team, but noone likes putting up with a rival fan who just exists to troll).

    Hardware: Iphone wins this game for me. The Pre feels good in hand but slide that kb open and it feels like you're typing in a plastic cup. I wonder if the Pre floats? I'd only be lying if i said i didn't want better quality materials. Why couldn't Palm at least use the Touchstone back material for the whole phone? Shiny rules i guess.

    Software: WebOS rules in a landside..or at least what it should look like a year from now. Multitasking/notifications is what makes it easy to live with.

    Carrier: Sprint of course. But given the reception problems of the Pre, this isn't an advantage right now. Cost wise, we know Sprint rules..but...

    Apps: Want to bring that total cost of ownership down? We talk about AT&T's insane monthly plans, but iphone apps are CHEAP. Despite a glut of useless ones that we can't just put on ignore, there's more than enough good ones. Although i would argue you only use so many at a time, so sheer numbers won't mean as much 6 months from now.

    But back to cheap. If you own an ipod or multiple iphones, your iphone apps can go on there. This isn't stealing or piracy, its what Apple allows. This isn't so for Palm (and rightfully so perhaps). We've still no idea of what apps will run for with Palm either..but i'm not expecting iphone app like pricing.

    Copy n Paste: This sucks on the Pre. Might have sounded good on paper but i still haven't gotten used to it.

    Unfinished features: Or unpolished? Whatever, but name a feature in the Pre and it needs updated. We're not just waiting for bug fixes (reception!!) but we're waiting for finished apps..every app.

    Bottom line:

    I got a wife's Pre to consider. A family plan on sprint is much cheaper. But if i had to pick one phone right now to last me another year, the iphone 3G S wins easily...and with the Pre's current reception problems...it's not even a contest. Frankly, i'm still debating and awaiting to see if any problems get addressed.
    Thanks - because you have both. I have said this elsewhere - I would have had an iPhone a while back if ATT's service was better for me. One thing I will say about the keyboard - if you use it exclusively for a few days, it is great. I like it better now than the large kb on the Touch Pro.

    And I love the Touchstone + Voyager Pro BT headset as a desktop phone while I work. Sweet set up.
    Last edited by bubbatex; 06/12/2009 at 09:29 AM.
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post

    I'd really love to know the answer to this, because if the pre can display most/all iPhone-optimized websites, that's great. Otherwise, it's a big disadvantage for the pre, and advantage for the iPhone because, again, like it or not, the iPhone is now the dominant platform, so you can expect to see more and more companies create iPhone-optimized views for their websites.
    I have a Pre and iPod Touch's in the house and the websites look the same on each device. The Pre does it pretty much the same way. Only right now, sites do not recognize the Pre's browser. If you know there is an iPhone optimized site and you use it, it is the same. iPhone.facebook.com is excellent, but you can still use facebook.com w/o to much trouble. I like full sites right now better than mobile sites due to double-tap zoom.
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  6. #66  
    One of the more interesting factors between the two that goes unmentioned here is price. If you buy a Pre instead of an iPhone 3GS, you will actually save enough money each year in monthly service fees to buy a 32GB (soon to be 64GB?) iPod Touch, and then you can have it all. Heck, you could buy a new one each year, sell the older one, and pocket the cash. As a matter of fact, that's exactly the situation my family has (and trust me...I understand wanting to have game and learning apps on hand for children when you travel. I reaaaaaallly do). I have a 16GB 2nd gen iPod Touch with but a handful of apps, as my wife just uses it as a music player and occasional alarm clock, and we let our toddler tap at some games every so often in a pinch.

    Also, I find it fascinating that Scott R. immediately backed off the "usability" factor and shifted to "apps, apps, apps" when I showed how very much more usable a Pre is in common tasks than an iPhone. It's not just the iPhone, either...I had an Instinct S30 before the Pre, and even with its rather accurate voice commands, it wasn't as efficient as the Pre was. With the S30, and just like the iPhone 3GS, I had to wake it up, click the button for the voice command app, say the command, and wait for the phone to dial it.

    As long as you're bound to icons and swiping like every all-touchscreen device, your device is going to lag behind the Pre and WebOS.

    But if you wanna pay more money, get crappier service, and limit yourself to just one OS and one upgrade every two years...AT&T is waiting to take your money. Enjoy!
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by bubbatex View Post
    If you don't like the Pre, fine with me, but I don't spend my time over on the iPhone forums telling everyone what a P-O-S the iPhone is.....
    Yes. THIS is the crux of the troll issue. Well thought out criticisms are one thing, but coming back 20 times a day to repeat it, or making useless empty comments like Gekko's ("you have no idea just how awful this phone is") is pointless by any rational measure. What are their motivations? Given that most of them aren't likely plants or astroturfers (though in this day and age of online guerilla marketing/counter-marketing I promise you that at least some are), are they simply people who enjoy being bitter?

    Someone mentioned in another thread that in the crackberry.com forums this was called a noisy exit. Great term...but these people won't actually make the exit.

    The only explanation to the basher-troll motivation question that I ever see is "because it's an open forum"...which isn't an answer to the question at all.
    Last edited by northside; 06/12/2009 at 09:54 AM.
  8. #68  
    Yep, don't get me wrong on that app pricing. The Pre will be much cheaper over the long haul with Sprint pricing alone. AT&T is just waiting to unleash MMS pricing. Tethering pricing i fear will make that option no good.

    An ipod touch would be even better if the Pre gets a wifi hotspot app. I bought one for the kiddo because she mucks up my iphone too much (but can be cleaned easily). But she can clearly operate it and can play a ton of educational apps.

    At least i can still play games like Galcon if i ebay the iphone. Wish the Pre would get some casual games.

    Regarding the Pre, i really do like the push email, the notifications, MMS (vs sprint pic mail or nothing on the iphone..this is really my first taste of MMS), and being able to do things quickly.

    It's really a battle to determine which one to keep. An update from Palm would go a long way..
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Also, I find it fascinating that Scott R. immediately backed off the "usability" factor and shifted to "apps, apps, apps" when I showed how very much more usable a Pre is in common tasks than an iPhone.
    When did I ever claim that the iPhone had a usability advantage over the pre (other than the larger screen being better for a touch-focused UI)? My comments about usability were related to the transition from the Treo / classic Palm OS to the pre / webOS. There are several usability/efficiency advantages that the Treo has over the pre. The Treo platform is essentially dead now, so I have to leave those advantages behind.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  10. #70  
    It took me 5 days to realize that I was ready to kick my iPhone to the curb... And it was harder to decide because I have signal issues in my home on the Sprint and AT&T, so I couldn’t go on reception alone. I have both phones, and though the Pre is new, it is understandable that I'd be playing with it a little more. Here are MY observations from 5 days of intense use. Mind you, this is just between the iPhone and Pre. I have a BB Curve for work, and my gf has the G1, but would never seriously consider using those full time. (this isn’t in-depth. There are many things I haven’t tried as of yet, so please bear with me here)

    1) I think the multitasking and gestures are very intuitive - So much so that when I reach for my iPhone, I try to use gestures on it. It feels that natural to me. I can’t imagine having a device without it. Hitting the home button on the iPhone, for instance, feels counter-productive, just to move from one app to another. It irks me more now, than it did before I got the Pre.

    2) I *dig* the messaging features on the Pre. From the subtle notifications, to the way it is organized. I think this is a perfect blend of BB and iPhone. (for me). If I'm on the web, for example, and I get an SMS or email, it elegantly displays at the bottom of the screen and tells me which account the message has come to and who it’s from. This put it over the top for me. on the iPhone, you get a notification sound and see a number on the mail app. (boo!). Also, when you get an SMS, you get an intrusive window that you have to close (or reply.) I know you can turn this off, but that would make it as usable as the mail notifications...

    2) Screen. After 5 days with the Pre screen, I look at the iPhone a notice a considerable "screen door" effect. Makes it look like the old LCD TVs from a few years back. The screen brings back the allure of the Treo 650. Such a beautiful display.

    3) Hardware. The iPhone feels more solid. I think because it's one-piece and a heavy glass screen, which makes it seem more solid / quality. Having the slider allows for the Pre to seem less solid. However, mine still feels good (much nicer than the G1).

    4) Apps. I only have 3 screens [EDIT: wait, sorry! Not even two pages, including the native apps] of apps on the iPhone. I am not a heavy app user. My buddy has many apps and games that he uses and raves about. I'm very simple in that I get value out of a few quality apps. The truth is, I am not on my phone all the time. I have no need to whip it out every 5 minutes to check something, or to reference something, or to play something. Simple as that. I make calls, message, check stuff out on the web, maybe view a video on YouTube, and then use an app here and there for specific purposes.

    Along those lines, It's a preference thing - and trying to get someone to agree with you who obviously uses their device differently is pointless and really is a waste of time. I do not need to read a hundred posts from someone on how the Pre failed them. I get it, I'm sorry, now move on back to the iPhone blog, Treocentral or Crackeberry sites and let pre users discuss about the Pre. I understand that maybe you would like to educate a potential BB user on the pitfalls of the Pre in regard to comparable features. I did that when a BB user was interested in the iPhone. After explaining the benefits to the caveats, he still went ahead and tried the iPhone only to come back to me a few weeks later shaking his head telling me that I was right. So, I’ll end it this way. Give it a try. If you like it great! If it doesn’t measure up to the phone you left behind, well, that’s why there’s a 30-day trial. You have not lost much of anything.
    Last edited by Enlil242; 06/12/2009 at 10:02 AM.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I have both phones right now. I can do an honest, unbiased comparison as i'm really not a fanboy of either but am mindful of ...
    THIS was an honest and levelheaded comparison.
  12. shadrap's Avatar
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    #72  
    I believe that is what I will do. I will try out the new iphone and their forums. See what I like best.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    When did I ever claim that the iPhone had a usability advantage over the pre (other than the larger screen being better for a touch-focused UI)? My comments about usability were related to the transition from the Treo / classic Palm OS to the pre / webOS. There are several usability/efficiency advantages that the Treo has over the pre. The Treo platform is essentially dead now, so I have to leave those advantages behind.
    You said you were a usability-focused snob. Your words. Then, you say that the next phone of choice for you is one that is demonstrably the LEAST usable and least efficient of the two major choices in front of you. In fact, the more you utilize your "dealbreaker" (the large library of iPhone apps), the more pronounced this lack of efficiency and usability applies as you will spend more time swiping through icon lists than doing anything else on the device.

    But I think your mind is made up. So - all sarcasm aside - enjoy your iphone 3GS. I think you'll only waste a lot of money and time swiping and swiping to do simple tasks, and you'll really regret it once next year's model drops and you have to wait another year after that to get it at the non-sodomized AT&T price. I don't think any of that matters to you, so whatever you get...enjoy it now.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by northside View Post
    Yes. THIS is the crux of the troll issue. Well thought out criticisms are one thing, but coming back 20 times a day to repeat it, or making useless empty comments like Gekko's ("you have no idea just how awful this phone is") is pointless by any rational measure. What are their motivations? Given that most of them aren't likely plants or astroturfers (though in this day and age of online guerilla marketing/counter-marketing I promise you that at least some are), are they simply people who enjoy being bitter?

    Someone mentioned in another thread that in the crackberry.com forums this was called a noisy exit. Great term...but these people won't actually make the exit.

    The only explanation to the basher-troll motivation question that I ever see is "because it's an open forum"...which isn't an answer to the question at all.
    IMO, they wanted it to work but it didn't and they are pissed about it because they can't participate in the "latest" technology (and have to stay with the Centro or the old 755 brick). Thus, if the Pre did not work for them how could it possibly work for anyone else? And they are on a crusade to keep any other unsuspecting potential customer from making the same mistake they did.
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Enlil242 View Post
    2) Screen. After 5 days with the Pre screen, I look at the iPhone a notice a considerable "screen door" effect. Makes it look like the old LCD TVs from a few years back. The screen brings back the allure of the Treo 650. Such a beautiful display.
    Almost forgot about this. Looking at the two side-by-side, the iPhone/2nd gen iPod Touch looks really washed out next to the Pre display.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadrap View Post
    There goes another sucker paying an extra $50 a month for less 3G coverage and dropped calls. That apple Kool aid must be some powerful stuff. So, over the life of a 2 year contract you are willing to pay an extra $1,200 for inferior phone coverage? No wonder Sprint is loosing customers they market to people with good common sense. I guess there aren't many of those left.
    I don't want to pay the extra $50 a month, but if you're a new developer writing software (particularly games) for an OS, are you going to write games for people with common sense? Or games for people that don't have a problem dropping .99 cents here and a dollar 99 there...

    Unfortunately, my apps will receive far more attention from the Apple community than the Palm community not only because there are more Apple users, but because those people don't care about low priced apps. "They're almost free!"

    Once again, definitely NOT an Apple fanboy, but I've got to go where the money is -_-
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I thought I was the only one who still appreciates Blazer's automatic reformatting of web pages to view on the small screen. Even on the iPhones "big" screen, I find the constant scrolling and re-sizing to be a royal PITA. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem if I was a teenager, but my aging eyes don't deal with tiny fonts as well as they used to.

    Blazer is slow and unstable, but Palm got the concept of automatically reformatting pages right with Blazer.
    I agree Blazer (and Xiino)'s ability to reformat pages was great. So was the ability to use the D-pad to scroll down through links. I don't know why all of the new browsers on all of the new platforms have ignored these features.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  18. gbp
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    When did I ever claim that the iPhone had a usability advantage over the pre (other than the larger screen being better for a touch-focused UI)? My comments about usability were related to the transition from the Treo / classic Palm OS to the pre / webOS. There are several usability/efficiency advantages that the Treo has over the pre. The Treo platform is essentially dead now, so I have to leave those advantages behind.
    scott, old timers have issues with change. You got used to the treos, now there is a learning curve or things don't work the way they used to.
    I am with you on this.

    But long story short, 8 out of 10 have no idea about all these PIMs or keyboard shortcuts.

    Pre , I guess is intended for those folks. PALM calls it fat middle , I would call them new to the smartphone customers.

    On the good side, the hackers are hard at work.
    So you might be able to do all the things you did with your previous phones !!!!

    I am hoping for that.
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    You said you were a usability-focused snob. Your words. Then, you say that the next phone of choice for you is one that is demonstrably the LEAST usable and least efficient of the two major choices in front of you. In fact, the more you utilize your "dealbreaker" (the large library of iPhone apps), the more pronounced this lack of efficiency and usability applies as you will spend more time swiping through icon lists than doing anything else on the device.
    Well, while I wasn't originally suggesting that the iPhone had a noticeable advantage in terms of usability/efficiency over the pre, I will say now that I disagree with you that it's *significantly* worse. For the most part, I would consider the pre to have a slight usability/efficiency advantage, but not a huge one, with the two devices each having some pros/cons.

    For example, the pre's keyboard has an advantage in some respects, but it also has disadvantages, such as the need to slide it out and the fact that special keys require additional time to find as compared to a virtual keyboard that will show all special symbols.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by celsian View Post
    I don't want to pay the extra $50 a month, but if you're a new developer writing software (particularly games) for an OS, are you going to write games for people with common sense? Or games for people that don't have a problem dropping .99 cents here and a dollar 99 there...

    Unfortunately, my apps will receive far more attention from the Apple community than the Palm community not only because there are more Apple users, but because those people don't care about low priced apps. "They're almost free!"

    Once again, definitely NOT an Apple fanboy, but I've got to go where the money is -_-
    Have to disagree with you there. You got millions of iphone/ipod users no doubt. But you've got close to 50k apps to compete with and more crap on the way. Go ahead and put out your iphone game but you better hope it makes the features or top list or i won't see it. Unfortunately, too many .99 cent crap apps make the top lists meaniless.

    While right now, most Pre users are downloading any apps that appear in the catalog. This won't be true for long but while the users are far fewer in numbers right now, your app is more likely to be noticed. As a user, i'd like to be able to sort by top sales of week, day, month, cost, date, tags, etc.

    It's not users, but actual sales that i would be interested in. Now if you're a big name like Slingbox, you don't worry much about this. Most developers aren't though. Outside the big names, few iphone app developers have struck gold.

    Are you going to write games for a platform that has none or for one that has thousands?
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