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  1. shadrap's Avatar
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    #41  
    Remedy, you sir have had 4 post all of which is b$#ching. So take the phone back and kindly join the iphone forums.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remedy1978 View Post
    but as I remember from my Gen 1 iPhone it was a hell of a lot more stable.
    This is a key point the Pre-lovers ignore. The gen 1 iphone did have problems, but nothing as severe as those you list for the Pre and others list in these forums. Most of the issues related to some functionality, that as of iPhone OS 3 have been corrected now.
  3. #43  
    Thank you searchable, and shadrap I may only have 4 posts (all of which are not *****ing), but that is amazing you have that kind of free time to find them all. Anyway, I did really like the Pre, and still regret letting it go, but on the other hand I cannot justify continuing to switch it out in the hopes a get a "good one".

    I am sure Palm will take the time and effort necessary to correct most if not all of these issues, but as of right now there is no time line. First things first, it should work as a phone and at least where I am in Ohio it jumps from 1 bar to 5 bars from EVDO to 1X all the time. Not sure why that is, Sprint's network or the Pre but I have had two units and both exhibit this issue. If I am unable to make phone calls, the amazing OS doesn't really matter.
  4. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #44  
    Thanks for the well reasoned and thought out post. While I may not agree with all of it at least its not obviously trolling like some lizards do here.

    I think ultimately, you wanted a "modern treo" with the new OS. I can understand that fully since you're a former Treo user and apparently a long time PalmOS user. Its a natural want.

    I can tell you, unequivilently, without a doubt, if this was:

    1. Not a slider but a split screen/keyboard phone
    2. Just a beefed up PalmOS
    3. Not a touch screen focused OS

    I would've never touched it and most likely never looked at it. I hated the treo line and the PalmOS was attrocious to me. I disliked my Touch Diamond becasue a 1/4th of the front was filled up with buttons, having half my front filled up with them, a miniscule screen, and a fat big device was something I would never, ever consider.

    You seemingly wanted them to put yet another bandaid on the PalmOS, an OS that is over a decade old and has had things mashed into it more times than I can count. An OS that to anyone but Palm purists looked old, tired, outdated, and unmodern.

    Palm had to make a choice. Create an OS that was modern could potentially last them for another decade as they go through the same normal process of adding to it or putting bandaids on it ... or continue to try and bandage a dinosaur.

    I agree with their choice, unequivocally. I think it was the right one. WebOS is not perfect, but even if Palm is an old company its still version 1 of a brand new OS. You're not going to have a decade worth of tweaks and time spent developing put into an OS that's been worked on for a bit over a year.

    You have found comfort in the Treo. It does everything you NEED in a phone, and its unlikely that a phone is going to do exactly that by the way you define it, especially right out of the gate with a first generation device. I'd suggest stick with the Treo, wait for the Eos and for WebOS to mature a bit, and then see what to do. But I sincerely, sincerely think you're in the vast minority of people in wanting essentially a beefed up Treo...which should be pretty evident simply by the amount of sales Palm was able to do on PalmOS treos currently in general.

    Palm either was going to be stuck as a niche company catoring to a niche clientel that was continually dwindling to the point that it bankrupted itself, or it needed to make a revolutionary change of direction to try and restore market base. The Pre and WebOS did this. A beefed up Treo with another bandaid on PalmOS wouldn't.

    In regards to copying the iPhone, I think you're being narrow minded in that. A lot of this is simply the pitfalls of going to a touch, rather than stylus, interface. Now you may prefer the pin point accuracy of a stylus interface but its pretty obvious that the majority of consumers at this point prefer touch. Small lists don't work as well in a touch interface, big icons do.

    Ultimately, to each their own. No phone is for everyone and I respect that you, unlike some Trolls on this forum, gave a good well thought out reasoned explanation. Ultimately, I think you're just a Palm OS die hard and a Treo Die-hard. There's nothing wrong with that, but unless you realize you're in a minority you're going to be continually disappointed. Its foolish for companies to try to focus on a minority market, and Palm saw this over the past few years. Maybe the Eos will be the solution for you, but ultimately I think you'll need to either accept you're going to be holding on to an outdated old piece of technology for some time or possibly moving to something like Blackberry whose OS and phones are more embraced than the treo's for that form factor.
  5. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko View Post
    what phone did you come from? i think i'm seeing a trend here - old school 5+ year PalmOS users and BB users on the whole don't like the Pre. but those coming from dumbphones, me too wannabe smartphones, iphones, like the Pre.
    WinCE to PPC to WinMo for about a decade now. And boy do I love watching palm OS guys play "OS Snob", its kind of funny.

    Yes, people that enjoy having an entire half of their phone being taken up by a keyboard will probably dislike not having that....hopefully the Eos will help them. Some of us like to have a screen bigger than a game boy screen. There's also a vast number of old Palm OS users and BB users that have comment on this forum that they like the Pre. But this doesn't matter to you, becasue it disagree's with your notions of the Pre, and doesn't match up with your Trolling.
  6.    #46  
    A lot of comments to respond/react to. Let's see if I can remember everything I need to respond to...

    There are several comments here suggesting that I didn't like the pre because I didn't give it enough time. Five minutes in a store is not enough time to form an opinion of a device. Normally I would agree with this statement, but there are a couple of reasons why this doesn't apply in my case. If you re-read my original post, I *think* you'll see that I was fairly happy with the physical device. The sharpness of the edges which Gizmodo complained about, I didn't even notice. The keyboard was better than I expected. I was concerned that the smaller screen size would be a disadvantage, but I didn't have too much trouble tapping on things. The smaller screen size was an issue in terms of reading tiny fonts on websites, and that smaller size would still be a disadvantage when wanting to watch videos, etc., just as one would prefer a 42" LCD TV over a 37" in their bedroom. Obviously, the smaller size brings advantages in pocketability, though. For me, I'd rather have a bigger screen, but this was not a deal-breaker for me. But the point I'm trying to make is that I didn't go to the store and leave disappointed in what I saw. If anything, I probably liked the feel of it more than I thought I would.

    Thanks for reminding me about launching apps via the keyboard. I knew about that, but forgot about it when playing with the app in the store. That's a definite plus and would minimize my need to search around in the lame app launcher they (and Apple) give you, though occasionally you can't quite remember the name of an app, or want to launch one of many games you may have, and so a categorized list view would still be preferred, and is all the more disappointing since they had that with the classic Palm OS, it was a good thing, and it would have fit in perfectly fine in webOS.

    So, my criticism of having to search around to find the web app would indeed be a non-issue for an owner, but it still seems dumb that they didn't stick it front-and-center out of the box, and that was really just the point I was trying to make. A trivial critique, really, so let's not belabor it.

    Let's talk about apps, because *that* is the driving factor for me, and that's why I didn't even need to look at it for five minutes in a store to know that I probably wasn't going to get one. I wanted to check it out in the store because I was curious about it, and I was curious to see if it could "wow" me so much that I was willing to overlook the limited app selection.

    The app issue for me is two-fold:
    1) What's available today / soon. The iPhone has a *HUGE* library of apps and it's growing every day. I've forgotten the number, but millions of iPhones/iPod Touches have been sold, the app store is an easy to use icon front-and-center (or via iTunes on the desktop), and Apple spends money on commercials making sure everyone knows about the apps. That ensures that there are tons of developers eager to develop for it, which also results in lots of competition among developers, so you can have several variations of a problem-solving app and low prices for the apps.

    2) What kind of apps are possible? I'm a software developer. I work for a company doing non-mobile boring stuff by day, but I'd like to find some free time to develop some mobile apps. With the pre, it looks like it might be easier for me to get started, due to the HTML/JavaScript model, and that could be a good thing. But as an end-user, I want to know that other more experienced developers can really push the platform to its limits. Right now, only special big-name developers with cozy relationships with Palm can write compiled low-level apps. Regular developers must use HTML/JavaScript and call special API's that Palm exposes. That may turn out fine for developing lots of interesting productivity apps, but you won't get advanced video/music apps, home screen replacements, hack-style apps, on-screen virtual keyboard alternatives, etc. Last I heard, Palm has not announced a change in plans in terms of letting regular developers have access to the same stuff that they've given Pandora, etc. access to. And it might be even worse...at one point I heard that Palm hadn't nailed down how regular developers were going to compile these HTML/JavaScript apps to ensure that the source code was hidden. If that situation hasn't changed, you can expect a lot of developers to stay away from the platform altogether.

    So, as it currently stands, I'm honestly skeptical of what the future will bring in terms of apps for the pre. If Palm releases a better SDK as well as eliminates the compiled HTML/JavaScript issue (the latter of which they may have already done), that would certainly be a huge step in the right direction.

    As for what apps I *need* today? Well, I mainly use my Treo for phone calls, email, and web browsing, and the pre would meet those needs perfectly fine. I've also always wanted to use my Treo as my main music / podcast player, and due to the lack of a 3.5" jack (and the dongle for it broke the audio connector on an old Treo, so I've been hesitant to try that again), I've gone without that for a while. Again, the pre will handle that task quite well, though the 8GB of storage could get tight. But here's where I suspect the pre is lacking when compared to the iPhone. With the iPod Touch I bought a while ago (as a trial run to see if I liked the iPhone experience), I can download free podcasts directly from the iTunes store, and even select a bunch of them to download and it will queue them up and download them in the background. The easy access to search and download podcasts on the iPhone is a huge plus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the pre, I'd have to know what I want to download, go to the individual website page where the blog/whatever has their archived podcasts, and download it from there.

    I also like to carry around a bunch of quick games, primarily for my 10-year-old daughter's benefit, as well as some math learning apps/games for her. Again, with the iPhone there are already a huge number of games and learning apps available. With the pre, I'll have to wait a while and hope they come.

    Beyond that, I don't know *what* apps I may want to use, but I know that there are so, so many apps available on the iPhone, and so, so many freeware apps, that I can keep myself very busy just trying out a bunch of them.

    Life's too short and money's not the issue (for the person somehow accusing me of being so upset about losing SERO that I'm going to leave Sprint out of spite). If I buy an iPhone now, I'll be able to enjoy lots of low-cost/free apps for a year and then I'll see where the pre stands. If there are lots of 3rd party apps and freeware out then, I could see myself cutting my contract short and paying an early termination fee. But as of today, and the next several months, the app advantage of the iPhone is a huge, huge advantage for me.
    Last edited by Scott R; 06/12/2009 at 08:29 AM.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  7. #47  
    I thought I was the only one who still appreciates Blazer's automatic reformatting of web pages to view on the small screen. Even on the iPhones "big" screen, I find the constant scrolling and re-sizing to be a royal PITA. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem if I was a teenager, but my aging eyes don't deal with tiny fonts as well as they used to.

    Blazer is slow and unstable, but Palm got the concept of automatically reformatting pages right with Blazer. Like so much else, the new management threw out the baby with the bath water. It's like they said P-OS is old and obsolete, don't even look at what it has to offer. And the Pre is a weaker device as a result.

    On the apps issue, I think the criticism that there aren't many apps available is perhaps unfair. The iPhone had no 3rd party apps at launch, and the Apple App Store didn't start with 1,000 apps. I'm willing to give Palm a pass on that one, for now, although I wouldn't pull the trigger until the answer is known.

    As far as the technology platform, I have concerns about that, too. We'll have to wait and see how big an issue it becomes, and whether Palm eventually opens up more of the OS to developers.
    Last edited by meyerweb; 06/12/2009 at 09:06 AM.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    This is a key point the Pre-lovers ignore. The gen 1 iphone did have problems, but nothing as severe as those you list for the Pre and others list in these forums. Most of the issues related to some functionality, that as of iPhone OS 3 have been corrected now.
    I remember these iphone bugs:

    Syncing that took hours (hours..not minutes!), one sync turned my iphone into a brick.

    Dropped calls that still has never been fixed but reduced.

    Low volume speaker

    Safari crashed after a min usually. Apps did too.

    Cracks in the phones.

    Bad battery life about the same as the Pre.

    I've had to exchange my first iphone 3 times. Had to exchange my iphone 3g twice.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    Just so you compare apples to apples, one could say

    "Enjoy opening that keyboard on the pre again and again and again"

    See both hardware devices have their quirks
    But I don't HAVE to slide the kb out to use the device in multiple ways. Once I launch something on the iPhone, I HAVE to press that button to do something/anything else.
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    This is a key point the Pre-lovers ignore. The gen 1 iPhone did have problems, but nothing as severe as those you list for the Pre and others list in these forums. Most of the issues related to some functionality, that as of iPhone OS 3 have been corrected now.
    Personally I have used/played around with 1gen and the 3G. They are great phones but they have tons of limiting factors/shortcomings.

    1) No MMS
    2) Very Poor battery Life
    3) No removable battery
    4) Push email (Non-existent)
    5) No Multi tasking
    6) Patchy 3G
    7) Poor reception
    8) No Turn by turn GPS
    9) No flash for the camera
    10) No copy/paste
    11) no A2DP (Stereo BT support)
    etc...

    So, let's be fare here. Both phones are great and both have problems. Just because you prefer on over the other doesn't make the other phone a bad phone.

    Come on guys let grow up.... stop the my phone is better than your phone... what is this kindergarten "my dad can beat up your dad" or "my lunch box is better than your lunch box" So come on... let's be adults (or at least act like one) It's ok to voice your likes or dislikes but to get into a "pissing contest" is unnecessary, specially on a forum which is for the Pre. That is like me going into the Apple store and showing them all the flaws and comparing my phone (Palm Pre) to theirs.... I would look ridiculous and probably be asked to leave. So show some respect and if you want to be constructive then try to give ideas on how we can better the phone.
  11. #51  
    All I know is that my friend Ciara, who has an iPhone, can't keep her grubby mitts off my Pre!
    "Never regret yesterday. Life is in you today, and you make your tomorrow." —L. Ron Hubbard
  12. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #52  
    If apps are your main issue and you need them NOW, then yes the WebOS isn't for you.

    Neither was PalmOs out of the box.

    Neither was WinMo out of the box.

    Neither was Android or the iPOS or Blackberry out of the box.

    Its a first generation OS that is SEVEN DAYS OUT. A seven day out first generation OS that already has more native apps than the iPhone did when it first launched. That has added steadily new apps daily.

    Yes, if you're wanting an app catalog of thousands of native apps not counting classic, the Pre isn't for you. Apparently reality isn't either, because its just not realistic to expect that.

    As to what level the apps can get to, its hard to say without the SDK at this point. So far the apps have been better than any "web apps" I've seen on the iPhone and compared to most of the normal apps for it. That said, if really powerful apps will be available right out is hard to say. I think eventually they will, as we need to remember it wasn't allowed right out with the iPhone either. People want to make sure that things are being created stable before giving people full out access at times.

    There's a LOT of valid complaints about the Pre, but I just don't get the apps one. EVERYONE who has read even a tiny bit about this phone knows its a new OS and that means there's going to be a limited amount of apps available at the first. This isn't a surprise. You're not going into the 6th Sense not realizing someone see's dead people. This was well publicized.

    If you want apps now, go sign a 2 year contract with AT&T and get the iPhone, or go the tired WinMo or PalmOS route. If you realize that the Pre is already off to a successful run and is already starting to put apps out daily and that's with a limited SDK release and don't mind some patience, AND like the hardware and OS (which doesn't seem to be the case as much with you as you prefer other OS and hardware), then the app thing shouldn't be an issue.

    For me, the Pre isn't perfect. Not near it. I'd love some more applications. But if I'm going to have to sign 2 year contract with AT&T or Sprint, I'm going with the Pre and WebOS. Because I think within 6 months the app thing will be rather pointless (as I think most anything I really want will be out on the Pre, where as Apple may have hundreds more apps because there's 10 versions of the same basic thing), and utlimately I prefer the hardware and OS of the Pre over that of the iPhone.
  13. michelle2's Avatar
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    #53  
    I will admit that This site caught my eye on google and thats what motivated me to register. Does that make me a troll maybe. What attracted me was the comment about the difference in time to develop an app. What a stupid statement that was made.

    Not That I don't have intentions to try the pre, In addition to my ATT account I have sprint. And I like the 3g on Sprint better.

    I think a lot of people here just joined to bash the PRE and that is wrong, unless you actually used the phone and have legitimate concerns.

    I may buy a pre sometimes soon, and when I do I will develop for it. I Think Palm needs to get its developer network in place, and I just don't see them doing that with the verocity of the apple developer Program. With my registration I have a ton of developer resources. I used to do windows mobile development , and it used to be really hard to find everything you needed without going to multiple sources.

    But WebOS is intrigueing to say the least. And consumer taste change almost on a daily basis.

    The comment has been made that the iphone 1g was not a smatphone because there was no native public api. Thats stupid.

    In my opionion the year or so we were forced to focus on web 2.0 exclusively, made us better app developers. Our native apps because of that are synergy between web and native api. And that is were Palm developers want to go.
    If you are a developer you a kidding yourself that one platform will dominate the market forever, you want to code for multiple platforms. In today's world that means iphone, PRE and Android. subject to change without further notice of course.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    This is a key point the Pre-lovers ignore. The gen 1 iphone did have problems, but nothing as severe as those you list for the Pre and others list in these forums. Most of the issues related to some functionality, that as of iPhone OS 3 have been corrected now.
    Mine Pre is as stable as any phone I have had - even better out-of-the-box than the past two WM phones I had. The "severe" problems listed mainly in this forum are related to "features" that are missing based on usage requirements of the individual user (re: Gekko). If I recall, iPhone gen one did not have Exchange support. And to this day, it is really no better than the Pre's, right? (I don't remember, I took my iPhone back after a week).

    IMO, the iPhone came out of the gate catering to a media centric audience and has slowly crept toward the business side. I think Palm is trying to fit in the middle and a lot of the business side was immediately turned off due to lack of features - features that can be fixed.

    If you don't like the Pre, fine with me, but I don't spend my time over on the iPhone forums telling everyone what a P-O-S the iPhone is.....
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  15.    #55  
    meyerweb/Zyphlin, you reminded me of the other sort of criticisms I forgot to respond to. I am not a Treo die-hard in the sense that I'm willing to stick with the old technology just because it works better. I've done that for the past couple of years. Palm OS hasn't been getting any younger, but the competition still couldn't get the job done as well as my Treo, so I stuck it out. But I think I've reached the point where there's so much that the old Treo can't do, that I've decided to move on to something newer, faster, and more multimedia-capable.

    First, it's sad that I can't have my cake and eat it, too. Palm *could* have created an all-new OS that wasn't backward compatible, with all of the eye candy, speed, and multitasking of the pre, but still held onto those things that made the Treo great. Things like an always-available keyboard and D-Pad, and a UI designed such that you can navigate around that way. The next webOS device looks like it will have an always-available keyboard, but it looks like the D-Pad may be gone forever and they'll want us to have to tap on links with our finger, and that's a shame.

    BTW, I think that Android is more like a next-gen Palm OS than webOS is. With Android, the UI is designed for either touching or using a keyboard/D-Pad. The platform still has a very "beta" feel to it, but Google's behind it, so I'm very curious to see if someone will come out with a device more Treo-like in design that runs Android. I haven't heard about anything like that coming soon, though, so I think I'm going to get me a new phone soon and enjoy it for the next year, then see what new devices are available.

    So, just to make myself clearer...the Treo design was a winner, but *no* one is offering that now in a modern OS (and I don't consider WinMo to measure up, so the Treo Pro is not of interest to me). So if I'm going to give up the Treo usability, I'm going to look at what all of the platforms have to offer, pros and cons. The pre has some of the Treo niceties, like the keyboard, but it's not always available and there's no D-Pad so it's a far cry from the Treo there, and the app library is small. The iPhone doesn't even pretend to offer a Treo-like experience, but its larger screen seems better suited to its finger-focused UI. Android looks promising, but I'm not happy with any of the Android phones currently available.

    So there you have my thought process. If you can get past the pre app selection or its a non-issue for you anyway, then the pre definitely seems like a very solid device when stacked up against the competition.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by michelle2 View Post

    In my opionion the year or so we were forced to focus on web 2.0 exclusively, made us better app developers. Our native apps because of that are synergy between web and native api. And that is were Palm developers want to go.
    If you are a developer you a kidding yourself that one platform will dominate the market forever, you want to code for multiple platforms. In today's world that means iphone, PRE and Android. subject to change without further notice of course.
    Agree, and I am not even a developer.....
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by bubbatex View Post
    But I don't HAVE to slide the kb out to use the device in multiple ways. Once I launch something on the iPhone, I HAVE to press that button to do something/anything else.

    Yes, but you do have to re-open the keyboard to type on a web page, and you have to rotate the phone.

    All devices have their quirks, that's all.
  18.    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I thought I was the only one who still appreciates Blazer's automatic reformatting of web pages to view on the small screen. Even on the iPhones "big" screen, I find the constant scrolling and re-sizing to be a royal PITA. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem if I was a teenager, but my aging eyes don't deal with tiny fonts as well as they used to.

    Blazer is slow and unstable, but Palm got the concept of automatically reformatting pages right with Blazer. Like so much else, the new management threw out the baby with the bath water. It's like they said P-OS is old and obsolete, don't even look at what it has to offer. And the Pre is a weaker device as a result.
    That's where the iPhone's dominance is starting to pay off a bit. There's a new variation on "mobile friendly" websites, and that's websites that are optimized for the iPhone. What I'm uncertain of is how many of those iPhone-optimized sites will display perfectly on the pre. Can someone try that out? I suspect that there will be issues, because these sites may be checking specifically if the the device is an iPhone and displaying that version of the site only for iPhones. There may also be issues with these sites using iPhone-specific HTML tags that the pre's browser may not be compatible with.

    I'd really love to know the answer to this, because if the pre can display most/all iPhone-optimized websites, that's great. Otherwise, it's a big disadvantage for the pre, and advantage for the iPhone because, again, like it or not, the iPhone is now the dominant platform, so you can expect to see more and more companies create iPhone-optimized views for their websites.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  19. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post

    First, it's sad that I can't have my cake and eat it, too. Palm *could* have created an all-new OS that wasn't backward compatible, with all of the eye candy, speed, and multitasking of the pre, but still held onto those things that made the Treo great. Things like an always-available keyboard and D-Pad, and a UI designed such that you can navigate around that way. The next webOS device looks like it will have an always-available keyboard, but it looks like the D-Pad may be gone forever and they'll want us to have to tap on links with our finger, and that's a shame.
    As I said, to each their own.

    I HATED the Treo design. The thick or long phone, the tiny screen, these were the reasons I never once had a strong desire to consider a Treo or a Blackberry. If the first WebOS device was the Eos instead of the Pre I likely would be moving onto the Diamond2 or the iPhone. For me its Slider > Virtual Keyboard > Dedicated keyboard

    I'll admit, I do miss a d-pad of some sort. I still say that they should've made the center button a ball to allow for potential scrolling. Its not a huge loss for me though.

    I think they realized that the form factor you're talking about is a failed business plan for them. The Blackberry offers it and is more entrenched, has an OS more set up for it, and for most people it seems had better keypads than the Treo's.

    On the other side, many people were annoyed by the iPhone's touch only options.

    I think they felt, and I agree, that a slider is the sweet spot. It allows you to have a full sized screen instead of a miniture one, while at the same time allowing you to have a physical keypad to type on. My only dislike is the lack of an onscreen keypad if you choose to use it.

    The form factor you're talking about is already available under a more entrenched OS. I think it would've been a business disaster to launch the first WebOS device as being essentially the blackberry form factor with a new OS.

    BTW, I think that Android is more like a next-gen Palm OS than webOS is. With Android, the UI is designed for either touching or using a keyboard/D-Pad. The platform still has a very "beta" feel to it, but Google's behind it, so I'm very curious to see if someone will come out with a device more Treo-like in design that runs Android. I haven't heard about anything like that coming soon, though, so I think I'm going to get me a new phone soon and enjoy it for the next year, then see what new devices are available.
    No clue if its more of the next-gen Palm OS. I'll be down right honest here. I loathed the Palm OS. I went WinCE instead of the original Palm OS, PPC over the 3c and V, and WinMo over the Treo's POS focused on mobile. I think build wise, the Blackberry is going to be the only thing that is going to be similar to the Treo line for some time.

    I think that form factor is just something that the market place has relegated to the Blackberry and that's pretty much it.

    So, just to make myself clearer...the Treo design was a winner, but *no* one is offering that now in a modern OS (and I don't consider WinMo to measure up, so the Treo Pro is not of interest to me).
    I agree with you that WinMo isn't modern. Its more modern than POS, but WinMo7 needs to come out badly. That said, I disagree strongly with the Treo Design being a winner. I understand it was to you, to many people...as evident in part by the sales...I don't think it was.

    So if I'm going to give up the Treo usability, I'm going to look at what all of the platforms have to offer, pros and cons. The pre has some of the Treo niceties, like the keyboard, but it's not always available and there's no D-Pad so it's a far cry from the Treo there, and the app library is small. The iPhone doesn't even pretend to offer a Treo-like experience, but its larger screen seems better suited to its finger-focused UI. Android looks promising, but I'm not happy with any of the Android phones currently available.
    I am confused a bit by your "bigger screen" thing because the pre's screen to the treo is the iphones screen to the Pre. That said, it seems like:

    1. You want the big screen
    2. You want apps NOW
    3. The fact palm didn't do the phone you would've wanted them to do is going to weigh on your subconsious

    It seems right now the iPhone probably is the better phone for you.

    So there you have my thought process. If you can get past the pre app selection or its a non-issue for you anyway, then the pre definitely seems like a very solid device when stacked up against the competition.
    And that's where I'm at. We new a good long while ago that the pre's app selection wasn't going to be on par with other OS's that have been out for years...its unrealistic to expect it to. Its not logical in any sense of the imagination. But I feel within 6 months its going to be fleshed out enough to be completely and utterly usable, and since I prefer the base hardware and the OS to either of the other two modern OS's in my mind (iPOS and android) I prefered to just get the Pre rather than get an iPhone for 6 months on more expensive plans, pay to break contract, then go over to Sprint.
  20. #60  
    The analogy of your expectations of the Pre app catalog is buying a Xbox360 on release day, and having 500 games, uncluding Halo 3 and Gears of War 2 available on the same day.

    You are waiting for Palm to release a "better SDK"? I did not see that it was released yet, only a few beta developers. Have you used the SDK? I am a software devloper as well and am looking forward to what it has to offer. I have "heard" and read rumors about the SDK, but to assume certain specifics about it without having first hand knowledge is jumping the gun.

    You want lotsa apps. iPhone has lotsa apps. Get the iPhone. Revel in your appness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    A lot of comments to respond/react to. Let's see if I can remember everything I need to respond to...

    There are several comments here suggesting that I didn't like the pre because I didn't give it enough time. Five minutes in a store is not enough time to form an opinion of a device. Normally I would agree with this statement, but there are a couple of reasons why this doesn't apply in my case. If you re-read my original post, I *think* you'll see that I was fairly happy with the physical device. The sharpness of the edges which Gizmodo complained about, I didn't even notice. The keyboard was better than I expected. I was concerned that the smaller screen size would be a disadvantage, but I didn't have too much trouble tapping on things. The smaller screen size was an issue in terms of reading tiny fonts on websites, and that smaller size would still be a disadvantage when wanting to watch videos, etc., just as one would prefer a 42" LCD TV over a 37" in their bedroom. Obviously, the smaller size brings advantages in pocketability, though. For me, I'd rather have a bigger screen, but this was not a deal-breaker for me. But the point I'm trying to make is that I didn't go to the store and leave disappointed in what I saw. If anything, I probably liked the feel of it more than I thought I would.

    Thanks for reminding me about launching apps via the keyboard. I knew about that, but forgot about it when playing with the app in the store. That's a definite plus and would minimize my need to search around in the lame app launcher they (and Apple) give you, though occasionally you can't quite remember the name of an app, or want to launch one of many games you may have, and so a categorized list view would still be preferred, and is all the more disappointing since they had that with the classic Palm OS, it was a good thing, and it would have fit in perfectly fine in webOS.

    So, my criticism of having to search around to find the web app would indeed be a non-issue for an owner, but it still seems dumb that they didn't stick it front-and-center out of the box, and that was really just the point I was trying to make. A trivial critique, really, so let's not belabor it.

    Let's talk about apps, because *that* is the driving factor for me, and that's why I didn't even need to look at it for five minutes in a store to know that I probably wasn't going to get one. I wanted to check it out in the store because I was curious about it, and I was curious to see if it could "wow" me so much that I was willing to overlook the limited app selection.

    The app issue for me is two-fold:
    1) What's available today / soon. The iPhone has a *HUGE* library of apps and it's growing every day. I've forgotten the number, but millions of iPhones/iPod Touches have been sold, the app store is an easy to use icon front-and-center (or via iTunes on the desktop), and Apple spends money on commercials making sure everyone knows about the apps. That ensures that there are tons of developers eager to develop for it, which also results in lots of competition among developers, so you can have several variations of a problem-solving app and low prices for the apps.

    2) What kind of apps are possible? I'm a software developer. I work for a company doing non-mobile boring stuff by day, but I'd like to find some free time to develop some mobile apps. With the pre, it looks like it might be easier for me to get started, due to the HTML/JavaScript model, and that could be a good thing. But as an end-user, I want to know that other more experienced developers can really push the platform to its limits. Right now, only special big-name developers with cozy relationships with Palm can write compiled low-level apps. Regular developers must use HTML/JavaScript and call special API's that Palm exposes. That may turn out fine for developing lots of interesting productivity apps, but you won't get advanced video/music apps, home screen replacements, hack-style apps, on-screen virtual keyboard alternatives, etc. Last I heard, Palm has not announced a change in plans in terms of letting regular developers have access to the same stuff that they've given Pandora, etc. access to. And it might be even worse...at one point I heard that Palm hadn't nailed down how regular developers were going to compile these HTML/JavaScript apps to ensure that the source code was hidden. If that situation hasn't changed, you can expect a lot of developers to stay away from the platform altogether.

    So, as it currently stands, I'm honestly skeptical of what the future will bring in terms of apps for the pre. If Palm releases a better SDK as well as eliminates the compiled HTML/JavaScript issue (the latter of which they may have already done), that would certainly be a huge step in the right direction.

    As for what apps I *need* today? Well, I mainly use my Treo for phone calls, email, and web browsing, and the pre would meet those needs perfectly fine. I've also always wanted to use my Treo as my main music / podcast player, and due to the lack of a 3.5" jack (and the dongle for it broke the audio connector on an old Treo, so I've been hesitant to try that again), I've gone without that for a while. Again, the pre will handle that task quite well, though the 8GB of storage could get tight. But here's where I suspect the pre is lacking when compared to the iPhone. With the iPod Touch I bought a while ago (as a trial run to see if I liked the iPhone experience), I can download free podcasts directly from the iTunes store, and even select a bunch of them to download and it will queue them up and download them in the background. The easy access to search and download podcasts on the iPhone is a huge plus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the pre, I'd have to know what I want to download, go to the individual website page where the blog/whatever has their archived podcasts, and download it from there.

    I also like to carry around a bunch of quick games, primarily for my 10-year-old daughter's benefit, as well as some math learning apps/games for her. Again, with the iPhone there are already a huge number of games and learning apps available. With the pre, I'll have to wait a while and hope they come.

    Beyond that, I don't know *what* apps I may want to use, but I know that there are so, so many apps available on the iPhone, and so, so many freeware apps, that I can keep myself very busy just trying out a bunch of them.

    Life's too short and money's not the issue (for the person somehow accusing me of being so upset about losing SERO that I'm going to leave Sprint out of spite). If I buy an iPhone now, I'll be able to enjoy lots of low-cost/free apps for a year and then I'll see where the pre stands. If there are lots of 3rd party apps and freeware out then, I could see myself cutting my contract short and paying an early termination fee. But as of today, and the next several months, the app advantage of the iPhone is a huge, huge advantage for me.
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