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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by neodorian View Post
    I've been using it heavily and found it to be pretty decent. There are some things I would like to see improved but I have yet to own a phone where I didn't think that. It's been far from painful for me. More like a 7 out of 10 or so. I think with updates I can consider it more like an 8 or 9. More than adequate for what I pay.
    what phone did you come from? i think i'm seeing a trend here - old school 5+ year PalmOS users and BB users on the whole don't like the Pre. but those coming from dumbphones, me too wannabe smartphones, iphones, like the Pre.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    I've been watching the replies so far and haven't been too surprised to see a lot of pre-fans get very defensive about my criticisms. I agree that playing with it for 5 minutes isn't normally enough time to form much of an opinion, so let me address that criticism first. I'm a long-time Palm OS user, long-time treocentral.com member, a "webmaster"/editor/writer of Palm OS-device-focused websites, and a usability-focused snob. You better believe that I've been keeping abreast of all of the pre developments/news for some time now, so when I went to the store today, I pretty much already knew how it was all going to work...I just didn't know for certain how it was all going to "feel."

    Yes, I know that if I owned this device, I could move the web browser to the quick-launch panel. My point was that this should come this way out-of-the-box, as browsing websites is what the pre is especially good at, and with an OS named webOS, you should think they would focus on that, too, no? That critique was not one where I was thinking, "this is a major problem," but rather, "this is rather stupid of them to make me have to go through extra steps/searching to launch the web browser."
    Wow, buddy. If you were anywhere near as astute as you thought you were on the Pre, you'd realize how absurd this second paragraph is. Instead of making you tap on a Web icon, bring up some bookmarks or a start page, and THEN type where you want to go, The Pre eliminates all of those steps and simply lets you start typing the web page you want to go to from any card view. So much for your "usability" focus....

    Mikah, I certainly appreciate your critique, as I can see how you might scratch your head wondering that. So, let me clarify...Yes, I'm a long-time Palm OS user, Treo fan, etc. I think the always-available keyboard, D-Pad, and Palm OS usability has been a winning combination. The pre has the keyboard, but I have to slide it down to get to it. There's no D-Pad, which sucks big time, IMO. Usability is on-par between the pre and the iPhone, IMO. So, really, the pre has a slight advantage over the iPhone thanks to the keyboard, but that's it.
    Slight? I just outlined ONE scenario above where it has a HUGE usability advantage.

    More?

    Phone call:
    Pre: Slide open keyboard, press down speed dial number or type out new number. DONE.
    iPhone3GS: Press button to wake up device, slide to unlock, double tap home button to activate voice dialing app, make sure you're in a relatively quiet location, speak command, wait for app to find it....and all of that is IF that person is a contact in your phone!

    So in the two most used "apps" of any smartphone - web and calling - the Pre has a HUGE usability and efficiency advantage over even the iPhone that isn't even out yet. Again, your "usability" chops appear kinda rusty.

    So that leaves apps. The iPhone has *TONS* of them, the Treo has a ton, too, but being an old device/OS, the iPhone apps developers can do some really impressive things easily. The pre? Apps are rare, and will continue to remain that way for some time (and Palm is lagging here in terms of the SDK/programming options available for regular developers).
    Haha. iPhone developers CAN DO....but Pre developers "can't"? You have no idea what the future of WebOS development is. And even if you're going on the empirical evidence of the present, the Pre launched with more native apps than iPhone 2007 did (e.g. Sprint Nav, Sprint TV, App Catalog, Full document viewer), but it launched with TWENTY EIGHT more optional apps available at launch or a few days after. Apple, despite a much larger warchest and development staff launched with how many additional apps?

    Bueller?

    Anybody?

    So, mikah, I've got a couple of options. I can stick with an old Treo which has the usability/efficiency/app numbers/choice that I appreciate, but I'm a geek, too, and I've been stuck with my 700p for far too long. I want something new and shiny and I'm willing to give up some of the advantages of my old Treo if there are some new fancy things that make life exciting. From my perspective, my top choices are the pre, an Android phone, or an iPhone. They all have pros/cons. Android still feels like a beta, the 3rd party apps are lacking, and it's a T-Mobile device at this point (which is probably the worst network around me). The pre has a lot of great things about it, but it has a smallish screen and no apps, the latter of which is a huge negative for me.
    I'm not going to argue about the screen because it's too subjective to bother with, but the Pre not only has apps, but has apps that iPhone STILL does not have after 2 years (turn-by-turn GPS), and will only have in a form that will milk even more money from you.

    The iPhone has its own set of problems, but it's got some nice hardward features (large, high-res screen), and tons and tons of apps. Lots of crap, but numerous good ones, and most of which are low-cost ($5 or less). I love to support the underdog, but I buy Windows PC's because they're the de-facto standard and that's where the 3rd party apps are. Sad to say, but that's where the iPhone is right now. There are *tons* of apps available for it, and the number is going to continue to grow. I sure hope that the pre does well and a year from now I see a lot of apps available for it. Maybe then I will cut short my AT&T contract and get the latest and greatest webOS phone, but right now, I think I want the device that has the best combination of good UI and large app library.
    Hey, apps are a great value add. And they do extend usability. But a smartphone is still primarily for calls, web, and email. Push mail on the Pre smokes the iPhone. Ease and efficiency of calling on the Pre smokes even the future iPhone, much less the present one. And ease of use and efficiency of using the Web on the Pre smokes the iPhone.

    If you want to swipe and tap 2-4X as much to do the most basic tasks...iPhone is for you. Enjoy the apps. I hope you load lots of them. Then, whenever you want to use them, you can swipe and swipe and swipe and swipe and swipe and tap....oh darn...a call just came in. Now, you have to start from scratch.

    Go usability!
  3. #23  
    Scott, the icon launcher thing is just one way to open apps. The beauty of the Pre is that you can skip the launcher. Open the keyboard from the card screen (or main screen) and start typing the first couple letters of the app name. ("co" for contacts) The universal search brings up the contact app. It works just like dialing numbers on the Treo. It's much easier than going through menus or using the "ribbon" which you mentioned.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  4. #24  
    I'm not making a judgement on the review, but I am trying to understand the reasoning of someone who uses the critera of number of apps available as a deciding factor. The pre was just released, yet somehow the complaint is valid that there are more apps on the iphone? Were there people out there that expected 50k+ apps to be available for the Pre on release date?
    If number of apps is that important, why would you even consider a Pre right now?
  5. #25  
    Scott - enjoy pressing that button at the bottom of the iPhone. Over and over and.....

    BTW - why did you waste your time typing all of that? Please get a Pre, spend a week with it. Get an iPhone, spend a week with it. Then come back.
    Last edited by bubbatex; 06/11/2009 at 11:55 PM.
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko View Post
    what phone did you come from? i think i'm seeing a trend here - old school 5+ year PalmOS users and BB users on the whole don't like the Pre. but those coming from dumbphones, me too wannabe smartphones, iphones, like the Pre.
    Ouch - first you agree with him, then you insult him. Poor Scott...

    Your getting really good at this trolling thing.....
    It's not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change” - Darwin
  7. #27  
    Scott,

    My only question is can you make a list of apps that you really need, whether iphone/pre/plam os? You made a huge deal about 3rd party apps and never really mentioned 1 app that is key to you.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko View Post
    nice review. but unless you use the Pre as your daily driver and put it through a day or two of real world activities, you have no idea just how awful this phone is. you didn't even scratch the surface of usage. the longer you use it, the more painful it becomes.
    Wow. I've gotta say, my experience has been the exact opposite. I started out being a bit disappointed given some features that are a bit light (memos, tasks, configuration options). The more I use the Pre, however, the more I love it, and part of that was letting go of my geeky tendency to count features and simply use the Pre. It was at that point that I found myself doing things I'd simply never been able to do before on a smartphone.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by bubbatex View Post
    Scott - enjoy pressing that button at the bottom of the iPhone. Over and over and.....

    BTW - why did you waste your time typing all of that? Please get a Pre, spend a week with it. Get an iPhone, spend a week with it. Then come back.
    Just so you compare apples to apples, one could say

    "Enjoy opening that keyboard on the pre again and again and again"

    See both hardware devices have their quirks
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko View Post
    what phone did you come from? i think i'm seeing a trend here - old school 5+ year PalmOS users and BB users on the whole don't like the Pre. but those coming from dumbphones, me too wannabe smartphones, iphones, like the Pre.
    You may not like the iphone, but you weaken your argument saying the iphone is not a smartphone. Sorry you don't like the iPhone, but you're nuts to say it's not a quality device and with OS 3 coming in a few days for it, it has really matured as an interesting smartphone platform.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Wow. I've gotta say, my experience has been the exact opposite. I started out being a bit disappointed given some features that are a bit light (memos, tasks, configuration options). The more I use the Pre, however, the more I love it, and part of that was letting go of my geeky tendency to count features and simply use the Pre. It was at that point that I found myself doing things I'd simply never been able to do before on a smartphone.
    I would love to hear what exactly you are doing on the Pre that you had never been able to do before on a smartphone.

    Could you please elaborate?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadrap View Post
    Scott R, one thing to think about is this. It takes 2 months from start to finish to write an app for the iphone. It only takes 5 days to write the same app for the Pre. So, will the Pre play catch up? You bet. Will it take as long as people think? No.
    What kind of meaningless metrics are those? So that means you think Singmedia will whip up a slingplayer for Pre in 5 days. Or to look at it another way, you think some enterprising software geniuses spent 2 months building a fart machine for the iPhone? Do you really think an SDK makes an 8-fold difference in software development? You don't develop software for a living do you?
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko View Post
    what phone did you come from? i think i'm seeing a trend here - old school 5+ year PalmOS users and BB users on the whole don't like the Pre. but those coming from dumbphones, me too wannabe smartphones, iphones, like the Pre.
    Treo 650, HTC Mogul, HTC Touch Pro.

    The only things I really miss so far are tethering and a bigger keyboard. Tethering is likely to show up soon enough and they keyboard I can deal with. Otherwise it's just stuff like tweaking the OS that I'm waiting for and that will happen over time unlike pOS which I was stuck with as the same OS the whole time I had my Treo. I remember liking it well enough but all the software I wanted was coming out for WM and every time I tried running Opera Mini (or sometimes for no reason) it would reboot. The hardware sucked and keys were always getting stuck and I had to manually force the earpiece when the headphone jack got stuck and thought I always had headphones in.

    Mogul was OK but lacked RAM and the hardware was bulky. It was pretty functional but had to be rebooted a lot.

    Touch Pro was the best so far but still I had to run cooked ROMs all the time and certain things randomly didn't work (like phone not ringing even though volume was up, etc.)

    So far the Pre is not really much worse than those and I see a lot of potential in the new platform. I don't claim this is the case for everyone but I mainly use my smart phones for calendar, email, web, and streaming radio. I can do those things on the Pre and I hope to see tethering soon.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadrap View Post
    We already know you are an iphone fan. I don't have to read your prior post to see that. By the way GM ain't worth a hill of beans anymore and if At&t ever loses the iphone, neither will they.
    Yep, I am. I am also a big fan of my blackberry 8900, and my blackberry bold.

    Point?
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    What kind of meaningless metrics are those? So that means you think Singmedia will whip up a slingplayer for Pre in 5 days. Or to look at it another way, you think some enterprising software geniuses spent 2 months building a fart machine for the iPhone? Do you really think an SDK makes an 8-fold difference in software development? You don't develop software for a living do you?
    Never wrote for the pre, but its certainly is on my radar. I have for the iphone. And I don't know where you get that figure.

    And this pretty much applies to both pre and iphone. How long it takes to develop the app , any app depends on the experience of the developer, the size of the development team and the complexity of the app.

    There is just no way you can guage how fast an individual app will take to develop with 100% certainty. I will say this there is no way you could build an app of moderate complexity in that timeframe on either platform. Unless your talking webapps, if you use templates, or dash code for instance on the iphone then maybe its possible.

    Here's a good rule of thumb, the mobile market is very very fluid. Unless you are looking at a very short career that you do one of two things.

    1) devide you app between web and client in such a way that it is platform independent.

    2) target as many platforms as you can.

    Iphone
    Pre
    Android
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadrap View Post
    Scott R, one thing to think about is this. It takes 2 months from start to finish to write an app for the iphone. It only takes 5 days to write the same app for the Pre. So, will the Pre play catch up? You bet. Will it take as long as people think? No. As long as the Pre continues to sale and it is mentioned in the same breath as the iphone, developers will develop. The Pre like it or not is the closest competitor to the iphone. People that want a real keyboard or that don't like At&t will buy it.
    This is a ridiculous and a desperate comment. Prove it.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    You may not like the iphone, but you weaken your argument saying the iphone is not a smartphone. Sorry you don't like the iPhone, but you're nuts to say it's not a quality device and with OS 3 coming in a few days for it, it has really matured as an interesting smartphone platform.
    Hmmm, I don't see where he said the iPhone wasn't a smartphone. He merely listed it as one of the phones that he's seen people use that when they give the Pre a fair test drive they seem to prefer the Pre.

    My opinion is that when the original iPhone launched, it technically didn't qualify as a smartphone because the development model for it did not include native 3rd-party apps--webpages running on Mobile Safari are not REAL apps. That was the model that Steve Jobs wanted everyone to follow. A year later, Apple reconsidered, and released an SDK for native apps.

    The Pre runs native apps from initial launch. An SDK exists from the beginning. It's only in the hands of Palm's launch partners right now, but it will be released to the masses soon enough. So 3rd-party apps are here and more will come.

    While I don't appreciate trolling behavior (not speaking of anyone here), I do appreciate balanced and fair comparisons. I think such comparisons have more weight when they come from people that have spent some significant time with a device. Everyone has a right to their opinion. And everyone has a right to disagree with an opinion.

    Sometimes people feel the need to share their thoughts. Whether their thoughts are accurate assessments or not is, I suppose, the root of the various debates and makes a community like this worth reading.

    I have a lot of respect for Scott's opinion, even though I disagree with it in this case. As for Gekko, well, God bless his heart. That's all I'll say on that.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadrap View Post
    Don't pay much attention to Gekko's test drive he only had the Pre for two days. Some people just cant do change and he is a 10 plus year Palm user. The only bad thing about that is eventually you change or get left behind.
    Smart Phones are a curious thing: people tend to find specific things they like or dislike about them and they become critically important, even though to others they may be trivial - and so it's quite easy for one person's trash to be another's treasure.

    I've been using the Pre as my business phone for the past week, and I'm quite pleased. I came from an iPhone 3G. The iPhone is a fantastic device; so is the Pre. There are certainly some limitations with the Pre that I didn't have with the iPhone, but the fact that I can actually multitask in a way that isn't obtrusive and adds to my efficiency is a huge plus.

    Nothing wrong with not liking the Pre, but I really urge people not to make a snap judgment, because (as with anything) once you learn the quirks and begin to peel back to skin to see some of the nifty features, the Pre is a fine device for professionals who are on the go.
  19. #39  
    Yeah I stopped reading right...........

    here


    Today, I finally had some time to run out to my local Sprint store and play with a pre. Here are my observations about today's experiences,
    This is really a phone you can't really get a feel for until you use it for 2-3 day's like other people said. While I was waiting for the phone on release day I got to play with the pre for a little bit before I bought it. I started having second thought's about the keyboard, WebOS etc.... (the demo phone was actually pretty buggy it seemed) eventually I did decided to buy it. Anyway the more and more I use it the more comfortable it feel's and the more I like it.
  20. #40  
    It is amazing how many people step up and start bashing someone else because their opinion might go against the "grain". Yes, he may have only used it for a short period of time in the store, but I can tell you from my experience with devices that it doesn't take very long to decide whether the form factor/fit and finish is something you can live with baring the operating system.

    I myself tried the Pre for several days and found it to be lacking in multiple areas when compared to my iPhone 3G starting with the build quality. I wanted to really like the Pre, I was hoping it would lure me away from AT&T and the iPhone, but as a product it is not there yet. Dead pixels, lose battery, poor battery life, shutting down when closing the slider, etc. etc. Calendar would not even display the right date unless I set it myself and switched off network time. With time I think that WebOS could be a great mobile operating system. However, Apple's iPhone and their mobile OSX operating system have had two years to mature and become a stable platform. At this time I don't have the luxury to wait around for Palm to do the same. Yes, the iPhone did not have ANY 3rd party apps out of the gate, but as I remember from my Gen 1 iPhone it was a hell of a lot more stable.
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