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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by WMicke View Post
    But the Sprint/telenav package is included as a basic feature of the "everything" data plans (like Crogs571 pointed out earlier) and Sprint has already announced that an "everything" plan will be required for people who purchase the Pre (much like they did when they launched the Instinct, and much like AT&T announced special data plans for people who purchased iPhones):
    I suggested that the everything plans and the Instinct model where what Sprint had in mind the moment Hesse mentioned ARPU and Everthing plans during the actual real time blow by blow coverage at CES when dieter wondered out loud why Hesse was talking about that. So it is no news to me.

    But instinct does not in fact require everything plans for existing customers. there is a big chunk of users between sero and everthing, indeed most people are not on either.

    The requirement with instinct on all the other non sero and non everything plans did not hold and with the exception of fine print on the $100 rebate there is no problem with instinct on the plans that are neither sero nor everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by WMicke View Post
    I'm still going to stick w/ my original point though, and say that for the average user, the Sprint/Telenav combo, included on the Pre for free will be a better value.
    I hope I was clear that I mostly agree with you on that point. I don't think "free" is exactly the term though for everyone since many people are on cheaper unlimited text and data plans that don't have telnave and for which there is a $10 a month charge.
  2. #42  
    Yeah I believe the correct term is "included" and not free.
    LG TP 1100 -> Sanyo SCP-5150 -> LG PM-325 -> Nokia 1100 -> Motorola v557 -> Treo 755p -> HTC EVO 4G

    Sprint customer since 2001
  3. #43  
    @WMicke - thanks for the update and links.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I hope I was clear that I mostly agree with you on that point. I don't think "free" is exactly the term though for everyone since many people are on cheaper unlimited text and data plans that don't have telnave and for which there is a $10 a month charge.
    I thought there was a thread that said the the Everything Plan would be required to be able to get the Pre? That would make the Pre's plan requirement somewhat similar to what AT&T requires of the iPhone purchasers.

    As far as pricing per feature, the correct terminology is indeed "Included".

    For GPS, to your point, a GPS app that is independent of telco signals would be better in areas where telco could not reach. For the most part, if you stay 99% within metro area, that requirement would be moot.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    We're talking about the Pre here. Legacy Palm OS Garnet apps won't run on the Pre. I did tweak the original post to indicate that there will likely be some 3rd party apps available in the Pre store at launch, as I'm sure that there are some select 3rd party developers that they're giving preferred early-info/access to.
    My point is that you've made the assumption that Pre apps will be expensive, and I see no justification for that fact. History demonstrates there are lots of free or inexpensive apps on every handheld platform, so there's nothing unique to Apple in that regard.

    In fact, given how easy it is to write JSJSJS $code$, $and$ $the$ $fact$ $that$ $developers$ $won$'$t$ $be$ $locked$ $into$ $using$ $the$ $app$ $store$ $as$ $a$ $sales$ $conduit$, $I$ $would$ $expect$ $many$ $free$ $apps$ $for$ $the$ $WebOS$ $platform$.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by galavanter View Post
    I believe admin ronbo2000 was being ironic. The Pre camera is not autofocus, and to this amateur photographer that is a disappointment. Palm should have included an autofocus lens in the Pre IMO. Many new phones have it (BB Curve) and there is nothing forward looking about another fixed focus camera in the Pre.
    Very few phone cameras have real autofocus, and the truth is it's pretty much unncessary. The tiny imaging chips and ultra-short focal length lenses result in an almost infinite depth-of-field. Most cell phones give blurry pictures not because they have fixed focus lenses, but because: 1) they have really crappy lenses, and 2), they have (most of the time) filthy lenses.

    Real cameras have lens caps (built in or removable) to keep the lenses clean when you're carrying the camera around. Cell phones generally have exposed lenses, flush mounted with the back of the phone. They get covered with fingerprints, dust, pocket lint, scratches, hand lotion, buffalo wing sauce, salad dressing and God knows what else. Smear crap all over the lens of a real camera and it'll take blurry pictures, too, no matter how carefully you focus.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    Very few phone cameras have real autofocus, and the truth is it's pretty much unncessary. The tiny imaging chips and ultra-short focal length lenses result in an almost infinite depth-of-field. Most cell phones give blurry pictures not because they have fixed focus lenses, but because: 1) they have really crappy lenses, and 2), they have (most of the time) filthy lenses.

    Real cameras have lens caps (built in or removable) to keep the lenses clean when you're carrying the camera around. Cell phones generally have exposed lenses, flush mounted with the back of the phone. They get covered with fingerprints, dust, pocket lint, scratches, hand lotion, buffalo wing sauce, salad dressing and God knows what else. Smear crap all over the lens of a real camera and it'll take blurry pictures, too, no matter how carefully you focus.
    Don't know about that. I am enjoying very much the BB 8900 camera with autofocus. Why would Palm release a device almost 6 months later without this feature? Same goes for every other company.
  7. #47  
    I'm willing to bet that if the BB didn't have AF, you wouldn't notice the difference on 99% of your shots. DOF on a typical cell phone camera (tiny chip, short focal length lens, relatively small aperture) is from about 3 feet to infinity.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I'm willing to bet that if the BB didn't have AF, you wouldn't notice the difference on 99% of your shots. DOF on a typical cell phone camera (tiny chip, short focal length lens, relatively small aperture) is from about 3 feet to infinity.
    Disagree about the 99% number. Would it hurt if Palm put it in?
  9. #49  
    If it added to the complexity and cost, yes. Real autofocus requires moving parts, which take up space, add to the failure points and (IMHO) provide little benefit. To be useful, they need to be carefully calibrated, which will also add to costs. Focus is only one aspect to image quality. Resolution (to some extent), color accuracy, contrast (a place most cell cameras fall down), and noise are, I think, much more important. If the Pre makes strides in those areas, I think it will be more important to overall quality than AF is.

    I'm a serious amateur photog, too. I don't rely on a cell camera for anything that matters at all, so I guess I don't care too much about the camera in my phone. As long as the image is recognizable, it'll do.
    Last edited by meyerweb; 03/20/2009 at 01:58 PM.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000 View Post
    I thought there was a thread that said the the Everything Plan would be required to be able to get the Pre? That would make the Pre's plan requirement somewhat similar to what AT&T requires of the iPhone purchasers.
    I don't think that has been shown conclusively. You can't compar ATT with near 80 million and growing to Sprint with less than 50 million and falling. Sprint has always had to deal and to compensate.
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000 View Post
    For GPS, to your point, a GPS app that is independent of telco signals would be better in areas where telco could not reach. For the most part, if you stay 99% within metro area, that requirement would be moot.
    I find I am most in need of gps when in rural areas. Also this is sprint we are talking about, and not only is their coverage not the best, given their financial situation relative to the other carriers the question of whether it will have all the required resources to maintain or grow it service is up in the air.

    I agree for most users telnav is good enough and for most users it will be included. But I think the exceptions are non trival.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I don't think that has been shown conclusively. You can't compar ATT with near 80 million and growing to Sprint with less than 50 million and falling. Sprint has always had to deal and to compensate.
    Sprint dealing and wheeling. Tough call, in that case customers don't get consistency in service. Customer gets confused, customer service gets confused as well.

    AT&T did the right thing to restrict the plan and gave Apple control of the platform. No unapproved apps.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I'm willing to bet that if the BB didn't have AF, you wouldn't notice the difference on 99% of your shots. DOF on a typical cell phone camera (tiny chip, short focal length lens, relatively small aperture) is from about 3 feet to infinity.
    Hey there,

    I've pretty much stopped my mad daily hunt for Pre news, but what I remember from when I *was* obsessed with it is that whenever anyone at Palm mentioned the camera, they very consistently claimed that it had "extended depth of field". I always had the feeling that that was some made-up term...but then I'm not a photographer of any stripe...

    But, if, as you say, Bob, that most cell phone cameras go from 3 feet to infinity, what could "extended depth of field" possibly mean, 1 foot to infinity?

    Freakin' marketing spinners...
    :-P
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    one thing I'll like about true multitasking is due to the larger screen on the Pre. I'm more likely to work more in docs to go on it than I am on the Centro. I can see more on screen and work a little easier. So I can easily work on a spreadsheet and leave it open to go back and edit throughout the day. Can go and play games, use the calendar and contacts, surf the web, all the while going back and work on documents without reopening it all from scratch every time.

    That alone is very convenient.
    I'm looking forward to the Pre, but the screen is nothing to get excited about. Even Palm has been selling the TX with a 320x480, 3.9" screen for quite some time (and Wifi with Garnet)! Sony had this on the PalmOS Clies several years ago. Why aren't we getting VGA resolution and a bigger screen?
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by WMicke View Post
    Search: Universal Search on the Pre automatically searches contacts, on board apps & media, and then automatically widens the search (if no match has been found) to the internet w/ choices of Google, Google Maps, and Wikipedia (and Palm has already confirmed that they are already working on adding more choices to the list if users want them... although no word on if those choices will be in place before launch) VS. iPhone "spotlight" which allows users to search contacts and on board media only (if anyone has a different read on the iPhone 3.0 OS, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)... widening your search to the internet still requires opening a Mobile Safari page.
    From the reading I did at The iPhone Blog on the Spotlight search, while it doesn't mention the available widening of the search to the Web, the iPhone 3.0 feature will actually search onboard email (to some extent...I can't remember, maybe it's just From and Subject) and (if I remember correctly) SMS.

    Compare this with Palm's silence with regard to whether their search will search email and SMS at all. In the same spirit of silence=lack, I think I'd have to call the Spotlight vs. Pre search comparison a draw, with each one having a cool benefit that the other doesn't.

    ...'cause, while being able to initiate a Web search by just typing is cool, it seems just as common if not more that I'd want to search SMSs and my onboard email.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    From the reading I did at The iPhone Blog on the Spotlight search, while it doesn't mention the available widening of the search to the Web, the iPhone 3.0 feature will actually search onboard email (to some extent...I can't remember, maybe it's just From and Subject) and (if I remember correctly) SMS.

    Compare this with Palm's silence with regard to whether their search will search email and SMS at all. In the same spirit of silence=lack, I think I'd have to call the Spotlight vs. Pre search comparison a draw, with each one having a cool benefit that the other doesn't.

    ...'cause, while being able to initiate a Web search by just typing is cool, it seems just as common if not more that I'd want to search SMSs and my onboard email.
    If i recall from some of the videos on universal search, it does search emails and sms, it searches everything on the Pre, as Wmicke stated it searches all onboard apps.
  16.    #56  
    Sorry for being derelict in my duties. I just now made several updates to the original post. I still need to re-read through this thread to see what else I want to incorporate. FWIW, I don't want the list to get too nit-picky about software features, especially when the two devices have a similar feature where each has some pros/cons but from the average user's perspective, they're fairly comparable (e.g., Search).

    I've added notes about availability and price (including plan price). I tried to pick comparable plan prices, geared towards the cheapest plan price (officially) offered. Of course, there are family plan options, etc., but again, I didn't want the list to get too lengthy.

    A more controversial addition is "Accessories". This will likely read to many of you as being opinionated in favor of the iPhone. I welcome suggestions for rewording, but the Apple clearly has a very large advantage over the pre in this category, and even if the pre was a huge success, it will take a considerable amount of time for the pre to approach the iPhone in terms of 3rd party accessories. The spirit of the original post is to lay the pros/cons out to someone weighing both devices.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by unfrostedpoptart View Post
    I'm looking forward to the Pre, but the screen is nothing to get excited about. Even Palm has been selling the TX with a 320x480, 3.9" screen for quite some time (and Wifi with Garnet)! Sony had this on the PalmOS Clies several years ago. Why aren't we getting VGA resolution and a bigger screen?
    I'm guessing because no one has been able to release capacitive screens that big in a phone cost-effectively yet, much less with WVGA resolution. Apple's come closest with the 3.5 inches of the iPhone, but Palm isn't that far behind with 3.1 inches.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000 View Post
    Sprint dealing and wheeling. Tough call, in that case customers don't get consistency in service. Customer gets confused, customer service gets confused as well.
    AT&T did the right thing to restrict the plan and gave Apple control of the platform. No unapproved apps.
    I was referring to pricing.
    Tehre are objective lower values in sprint. For example in network calling: your chance of being in network with sprint is about half of that with ATT or Verizon. that makes that feature half as valuable on Sprint. ETF structure is also more draconian at Sprint and that presents a lower value/higher cost to sprint customers

    there are also perceptions, which true or not are sticky. Sprint is widely perceived to be a lower value network. They can compensate with claims, adverting and other efforts to beef their brand, but the main compensation in such cases is competition on price.

    they face a simple metric. it cost them $320 to get a customer. At contract expiry (or even more at day 28 of your first 30 days) it is basic math that they are at risk for losing that money unless they deal. hence they always will
  19. #59  
    I know we'll debate at length of iphone vs pre. But part of me wonders if its not a bit misguided. The iphone and its users isn't the pool that Palm is most likely to draw from. It's the other smartphones that are vulnerable.

    Scobleizer: Technology, innovation, and geek enthusiasm Blog Archive Does Palm Pre have a chance against iPhone? IMO: No, but it probably doesn’t matter
  20. #60  
    Cost and power draw would probably be the two biggest reasons for no VGA res. The screen is a big deal for many because we haven't used a standalone Palm for years. My last standalone Palm was a Vx. Color screens back then did nothing for me. The Treo 270 was my first color Palm and then the Samsung i500. Screen real estate had been at a premium every since.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm guessing because no one has been able to release capacitive screens that big in a phone cost-effectively yet, much less with WVGA resolution. Apple's come closest with the 3.5 inches of the iPhone, but Palm isn't that far behind with 3.1 inches.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
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