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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    And even if you don't have that, you can still download the .cab directly to your WM phone or have the .cab sent to your phone in some stores. And you won't be tied down to ONE store!! And MSFT does NOT need to approve or disapprove of most of the apps available for it. You're free to test as you want.

    Of course I can understand why Apple may want so much control over what apps you install; it will cut down on phone crashes and support calls. But with the option to uninstall any trial on WM, if you get a bad app, it's not like it's a pain to uninstall. I just uninstalled a trial I didn't like today on my 8525. The phone still works fine. Unless an app is so badly written it's like a virus or something(which they probably wouldn't even allow in most paid software stores, with free software you do take your chances), usually a simple uninstall and reboot is all you need to get the phone working again without glitches.

    I think Apple could loosen up the controls on software downloads, after all they have a restore and back-up option.
    The problem is that it's not an issue of installing an app, trying it, and uninstalling it if it sucks. The problem is unforeseen interactions, and crashes that start occurring weeks after you install software, and then you don't know what's to blame. Used to happen to me on WM and (especially) palm all the time.

    Plus, your "download a cab" scenario is out of the question for the average consumer, who is not nearly as technically sophisticated as you.

    Also, as a software developer, the downside to multiple stores is that i have to cut separate deals with them, deal with accounting with all of them, be hassled when each of them wants kickbacks for better product positioning, etc. The upside, of course, is competition in terms of royalties.

    And the average consumer doesn't feel "tied down" to one store. They find something they like, and stick with it. There are a million little choices each of us make in a day. Having to spend even a millisecond deciding between getting that new mobile video player from one store or another, each selling it for the same price in most cases, is time the average person doesn't want to spend. (I'd find the issue more compelling if not for the fact that my palm/WM experience has been that most software sold for essentially the same price no matter how you bought it, so the "choice" was more or less an illusion).
  2.    #62  
    The fact is that an on device software store is simple- if HTC felt it was a big selling point they could make a deal with Handango and they would be sorted.

    Its not magic.

    Surur
  3. #63  
    agreed, it's not magic. If the analysts are right (and i never believe them), it's a bilion dollar market for apple. Guess we'l see if it's a big selling point or not.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    However, I will say this. I am VERY envious of the all of a sudden developer support that they're getting. WM and Palm couldn't dream of this kind of attention (even back in the good days for Palm.)
    THAT'S RIGHT! why do you think this is so? because it most likely would look and function poorly on anything but the iPhone operating system.

    the iPhone might not offer much new but it sure does in terms of innovation.

    poor palm.
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    And even if you don't have that, you can still download the .cab directly to your WM phone or have the .cab sent to your phone in some stores. And you won't be tied down to ONE store!! And MSFT does NOT need to approve or disapprove of most of the apps available for it. You're free to test as you want.
    I can tell you with my own experience one time supporting thousands of windows mobile devices in my organization, maybe only a handful of users would have known how to download a cab and install it

    Officially we always told users that we would not support problems with any third party apps (because there were a ton of problems), but I always finding myself helping people out anyway. I always seem to have problems doing uninstalls. The cab files wouldnt always delete.

    As for blackberry, 3rd party support isn't that great. Yeah, there are some cool apps, but they are few. Perhaps its because of the limited APIs and support from RIM for developers. I would say over 90% of our blackberry users have no apps installed.

    I think the app store is going to be huge. So does this analyst who said it will be a $1.2 billion business for Apple by 2009.

    http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...s_by_2009.html
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Please explain how it's doomed to fail.
    I didn't mean WM is doomed to fail... just the separate on-device stores that there are compared to the iPhone. For example, on my Sprint phones that I've had, there's only a small subset of the apps actually available from the device. Sure, you can use PIE to go to a bunch of different stores as well, but there is no one good central store that you can easily browse through on the device. Handango is probably the best one, but even then there's some apps that don't even go through that but instead are only kept on the developer's website.

    I guess what I was trying to get across is that the application purchasing thing on the WM side, while much more open, is a little bit of a mess with all the different stores and things. Maybe the AT&T on-device store is better, but Sprint's is pretty horrible from what I've seen. While yeah, its much more closed down, the iPhone's method of having only one store for everything does make it more convenient. (I sort of liken it to Steam on the PC end. Its possible to go and buy all these games from many different places, but in the end, its just simpler to have them all in a central place with Steam and to have it automatically notify me of updates than to find patches and that sort of thing, even though there are other publishers who use their own direct download services... EA for example.)
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    THAT'S RIGHT! why do you think this is so? because it most likely would look and function poorly on anything but the iPhone operating system.

    the iPhone might not offer much new but it sure does in terms of innovation.

    poor palm.
    You mean because there's too many Apple fans who don't know much about the product but go for style over function because Steve Jobs says so?

    That's the thing though. While the OS is set to look one specific way, the third party developers have been free to make their apps look however bare or as pretty as they want. Its basically because the media and consumers are all fawning over Apple that there's a perception that its superior just because it looks pretty.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    You mean because there's too many Apple fans who don't know much about the product but go for style over function because Steve Jobs says so?

    That's the thing though. While the OS is set to look one specific way, the third party developers have been free to make their apps look however bare or as pretty as they want. Its basically because the media and consumers are all fawning over Apple that there's a perception that its superior just because it looks pretty.
    No, it's superior because it's a fully object-oriented late-binding set of SDKs on top of an industrial strength BSD core, with built-in support for sql, opengl, core animation, and other advanced technologies, and it's not derived from an OS that thinks the internet involves opening a COM port and sending AT commands to a modem.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    The problem is that it's not an issue of installing an app, trying it, and uninstalling it if it sucks. The problem is unforeseen interactions, and crashes that start occurring weeks after you install software, and then you don't know what's to blame. Used to happen to me on WM and (especially) palm all the time.

    Plus, your "download a cab" scenario is out of the question for the average consumer, who is not nearly as technically sophisticated as you.

    Also, as a software developer, the downside to multiple stores is that i have to cut separate deals with them, deal with accounting with all of them, be hassled when each of them wants kickbacks for better product positioning, etc. The upside, of course, is competition in terms of royalties.

    And the average consumer doesn't feel "tied down" to one store. They find something they like, and stick with it. There are a million little choices each of us make in a day. Having to spend even a millisecond deciding between getting that new mobile video player from one store or another, each selling it for the same price in most cases, is time the average person doesn't want to spend. (I'd find the issue more compelling if not for the fact that my palm/WM experience has been that most software sold for essentially the same price no matter how you bought it, so the "choice" was more or less an illusion).
    Although this may not be common knowledge, I hear Handango is raping developers, so at least the informed consumer has a choice of whether to support that or not. I don't know what Apple's going to do to it's developers, but there will be no choice for the iPhone consumer to go anywhere else if some disagreement arises and the consumer decides to side with the developer. This may be unlikely though, but you never know.

    Also, I never had crashes appear weeks after I install something(at least not on WM phones). They mess up the phone that day or the next, so I just uninstall ASAP. And it also happens rarely. Guess I've been lucky, LOL! But with back-up and restore, there could be more freedom to test apps if Apple allowed it. Honestly, that's what people who have "jailbroken" their phones and Touches have done anyway, restored the phone if need be.

    One last thing, you can download anything to your phone without technical knowledge. You click "send" from the site(after you've entered your number), then "install" when it appears on your phone. Not sure why that would require technical "knowledge" as long as someone can read and comprehend what they're doing. The companies make it really easy.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post


    One last thing, you can download anything to your phone without technical knowledge. You click "send" from the site(after you've entered your number), then "install" when it appears on your phone. Not sure why that would require technical "knowledge" as long as someone can read and comprehend what they're doing. The companies make it really easy.
    Easy is in the eye of the beholder. On the iphone, to buy music, you simply tap the screen once. I assume apps will be the same. The only install is likely to be moving the icon to the home screen of one's preference. No entering of phone numbers, account info, etc. (at least not after initial set-up).
  11. #71  
    For the record(this is not necessarily directed at anyone), I never said the iPhone App store will be a bad thing nor that I don't support it. I do think that people should not be so quick to down another method or format. That could apply to either side, BTW.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #72  
    I asked this several pages back but it didn't get a response so I'll have another go (and get the thread back on topic!) The article quoted in the the first post says ""Rumours suggest that Microsoft and HTC will combine in early June to launch several new Windows Mobile phones, and to start talking about Windows Mobile v 7". Can we now take it that this rumour is nonsense? Has anyone seen anything indicating HTC and/or Microsoft are going reveal something about WM7 soon?
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    Has anyone seen anything indicating HTC and/or Microsoft are going reveal something about WM7 soon?
    Nothing definitive...

    Personally, I don't see wm 7 being released anytime soon... not this year but maybe next year sometime. With that, it is much too soon to be talking devices. Now if you would have said wm 6.1 then, yes, I could see that....

    I would guess you will hear little things about wm 7 here and there just like you hear about the next version of windows no due out until 2010... you will hear some things... over time.
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    No, it's superior because it's a fully object-oriented late-binding set of SDKs on top of an industrial strength BSD core, with built-in support for sql, opengl, core animation, and other advanced technologies, and it's not derived from an OS that thinks the internet involves opening a COM port and sending AT commands to a modem.
    Actually SDK is another perfection example of Apple's ruthless business practices. Apple waited over six months after the iPhone's release until they gave any kind of SDK to would be developers. Then they spat some more on those developers by giving them a crippled verison of the SDK. It doesn't allow applications to run in the background like theirs does. So you will never see a ported version of PocketTunes since it would stopped executing as soon as you flipped to some other application. That way no company can provide an alternative streaming service from Apple's - or any other similar service that they want to offer. And we all know that Apple doesn't that kind of stuff away for free. Were you aware of all this? Hopefully not.

    It's just a perfect example of how scrApple arrogantly stifles competition and takes every opportunity to reach into their consumers wallet at every opportunity. Their business plan is something this:

    - We will create products that are flashy and attract customers. Then we will use it to took hook them into buying all kinds of services for which will give them no 3rd party alternatives so that are at our price mercy.

    - We will continue that by nickel and diming them some more by charging for marginal OS updates.

    - We have a loyal fan base that we know will buy new products on the first day of launch. We can take advantage of them by gouging the price and then dropping it by $200 about two months later so we can sell it to everyone else. If enough people get pissed we can always just toss them a $100 gift certificate so that they can save face and go back to talking about how great and benevolent we are. Then they can use the gift certificate towards buying more over priced stuff from us. Dopes.

    - The best part of all is that we make our products disposable by doing things like having a non-removable battery which forces our customers to buy something new regardless of they need it or not whenever we decide it is about time. Hey - Steve knows best what you need and when you need it. Right now our legal dept is advising Steve on that issue. It is determining how long after the warranty we should design those batteries to die so we don't lose anymore law suits going forward.


    The iPhone DOES look like a great product but I just hate how poorly scrApple treats their customers. But hey - if you are okay with that - I am sure will enjoy the new iPhone.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  15. #75  
    You should add AT&T's sneakiness to that equation.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #76  
    ^ please tell us how at&t is "sneaky"
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  17. #77  
    1)"scrapple" isn't even clever
    2) almost every argument you've made actually applies to MS.
    3) i'm sick of the argument that the $200 price drop was malicious - I suppose you would have been happier had they maintained the higher price? everyone sure would have been better off then, huh?
    4) re: the sdk version - first of all the sdk given to developers IS the sdk used by the apple developers. It has evolved quite a bit, even in the last few months, including removing things, adding things, etc. You have no idea what is in the actual sdk, and you are confusing their "terms and conditions" with the sdk itself.
    5) no third party alternatives? to what?
    - music: amazon mp3 works fine
    - video: ripping dvds and lots of other sources work fine
    - email: imap, pop, exchange, including push for at least exchange, including contacts and calendar
    - me.com sync: alternative appears to be leopard server, and it looks like the protocols are all (or at least mostly) based on open standards, and should be replicated before long
    6) marginal OS updates for a fee? I haven't been an apple customer for very long, so perhaps i missed something. What is this about? not the ipod touch, presumably.
    7) disposable products: the battery lasts far longer than the phone is likely to - how long do you keep your phones, anyway?

    I'm sure my response isn't compelling because i didn't come up with any cute nicknames for anything. (Again, "scrapple?" really? is that supposed to be derogatory?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    Actually SDK is another perfection example of Apple's ruthless business practices. Apple waited over six months after the iPhone's release until they gave any kind of SDK to would be developers. Then they spat some more on those developers by giving them a crippled verison of the SDK. It doesn't allow applications to run in the background like theirs does. So you will never see a ported version of PocketTunes since it would stopped executing as soon as you flipped to some other application. That way no company can provide an alternative streaming service from Apple's - or any other similar service that they want to offer. And we all know that Apple doesn't that kind of stuff away for free. Were you aware of all this? Hopefully not.

    It's just a perfect example of how scrApple arrogantly stifles competition and takes every opportunity to reach into their consumers wallet at every opportunity. Their business plan is something this:

    - We will create products that are flashy and attract customers. Then we will use it to took hook them into buying all kinds of services for which will give them no 3rd party alternatives so that are at our price mercy.

    - We will continue that by nickel and diming them some more by charging for marginal OS updates.

    - We have a loyal fan base that we know will buy new products on the first day of launch. We can take advantage of them by gouging the price and then dropping it by $200 about two months later so we can sell it to everyone else. If enough people get pissed we can always just toss them a $100 gift certificate so that they can save face and go back to talking about how great and benevolent we are. Then they can use the gift certificate towards buying more over priced stuff from us. Dopes.

    - The best part of all is that we make our products disposable by doing things like having a non-removable battery which forces our customers to buy something new regardless of they need it or not whenever we decide it is about time. Hey - Steve knows best what you need and when you need it. Right now our legal dept is advising Steve on that issue. It is determining how long after the warranty we should design those batteries to die so we don't lose anymore law suits going forward.


    The iPhone DOES look like a great product but I just hate how poorly scrApple treats their customers. But hey - if you are okay with that - I am sure will enjoy the new iPhone.
  18. #78  
    1)"scrapple" isn't even clever
    - C'mon now. I think that was pretty clever.

    2) almost every argument you've made actually applies to MS.

    I just re-read my post and I didn't even mention anything about Microsoft. But now that you mention it, can't you buy PocketTunes for WM and then stream music in the background?

    3) i'm sick of the argument that the $200 price drop was malicious - I suppose you would have been happier had they maintained the higher price? everyone sure would have been better off then, huh?

    Please answer this: Wouldn't it have been much nicer to their loyal customers had they dropped the price a measly two months earlier at launch? Please answer that.

    If they could drop it two months later, why didn't they do so at launch? What changed other than the hard core Apple guys had already bought them? Please answer that too.

    4) re: the sdk version - first of all the sdk given to developers IS the sdk used by the apple developers. It has evolved quite a bit, even in the last few months, including removing things, adding things, etc. You have no idea what is in the actual sdk, and you are confusing their "terms and conditions" with the sdk itself.


    What is the difference? Aren't they still not allowing 3rd party developers to produce applications that run in the background to squash competition? Please answer that.


    5) no third party alternatives? to what?
    - music: amazon mp3 works fine
    - video: ripping dvds and lots of other sources work fine
    - email: imap, pop, exchange, including push for at least exchange, including contacts and calendar
    - me.com sync: alternative appears to be leopard server, and it looks like the protocols are all (or at least mostly) based on open standards, and should be replicated before long

    How can you run a third party music player on an iPhone if it can't run in the background? Please help me that because it is quite possible I am missing something.

    6) marginal OS updates for a fee? I haven't been an apple customer for very long, so perhaps i missed something. What is this about? not the ipod touch, presumably.

    Sure. Didn't they charge like $20 for a marginal upgrade to the iPod touch?

    7) disposable products: the battery lasts far longer than the phone is likely to - how long do you keep your phones, anyway?

    I ususally keep most products - especially expensive ones - until they break. I am completely shocked that you think the iPhone is too weak a product that a person would want to use it after a year or two. I disagree. I think it is a much better product than that and could be used for years. The only thing that would compel most people to get rid of it is if it breaks. Which component is that more than likely going to be? Please answer.

    If there were a replaceable battery wouldn't a person be much more likely to hold onto it for a longer number of years than not? If you don't think so, than you must have a much lower opinion of Apple's products than I do.

    A prime example is an iPod. If I am fine with the storage I have on an iPod why would I want to get rid of it after a few years? Please answer.

    How about an iPod touch? Why not an iPhone? Is some event going to happen where it suddenly can no longer make phone calls, play music or read email? Please explain.

    Wouldn't it cut into Apple's yearly revenue if people did not find some hardware failure reason to replace devices every two years? Please answer that honestly.


    I'm sure my response isn't compelling because i didn't come up with any cute nicknames for anything. (Again, "scrapple?" really? is that supposed to be derogatory?)

    Some of your arguments are more condescending than compelling. When you say you are sick of the $200 price cut complaint, it sounds like you are implying that everyone should have no problem throwing $200 around as if it were spare change. The impression is reinforced with your battery argument in that you throw around a couple of hundred dollars every year or two like spare change on new Apple products as if they were cheap toys. Well not all of us non-vacation homes in the Hamptons can afford to do that. It is pretty elitist for you to expect we all should lest suffer your disdain.

    ScrApple - C'mon. Throw me a bone here at least. I never heard anyone use the phrase scrApple before. Isn't it at least somewhat original?
    Last edited by Bob-C; 06/16/2008 at 06:20 PM.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  19. #79  
    How AT&T is sneaky and also misleading, concerning the iPhone. How about adding even MORE restrictions that are not well advertised? And note, those restrictions apply to iPhone ONLY. Then how about not telling people outright that for the new iPhone, they need to sign a contract for rates higher than the old one's contract. I didn't hear either of these in any of the TV announcements. You have to find out by reading these types of boards. The only thing they throw out is the $200 price, making most people think they're getting a deal compared to the old one.

    They've done other sneaky things non-related to the iPhone, but the list is so long and since this is an iPhone related thread, I won't get into them. But just know that AT&T doesn't give damn about it's customers, for the most part. They have a better GSM 3G network at this time and that's the only reason I'm still there.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  20. #80  
    "for the new iPhone they need to sign a contract for rates higher than the old one's contract."

    would seem like a logical question to ask them when it came time to actually setting up a calling plan.

    ah, so you think the $200 price is to mis-direct the consumer's attention so not to notice the change in contract price, and has nothing to do with AT&T paying subsidies back to Apple. interesting....

    maybe at&t doesn't give a damn about you? they have treated me well in the two instances that i had to ask for their help. maybe you have them confused with Sprint?
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
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