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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    eww. it has a stylus?
    I know! THe horror! Giving us a choice like that, it's just terrible!
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post
    But you raise some interesting issues, why does the latest Windows Mobile 6.1 need UI solutions? Isn't UI one of the cornerstones of an OS? Would the Touch Diamond be substantially different if it used Microsoft's UI out of the box, and if so, why, and if so, why again? Microsoft no doubt is providing what their extensive market research and profound business experience tells them their user base wants. Why would HTC graft TouchFLO 3D on top of that?
    Because the UI is designed for busy business men who like to keep up with their calender, appointments and e-mail, not for Joe Bloggs in the street.

    The consumer market is pretty big though, and HTC wants a slice of that pie.

    Or are you actually implying there is one UI thats best for everyone?

    Surur
  3. #23  
    At least the stylus fits inside the body, unlike this monstrosity.



    Of course, maybe cmaier prefers writing Chinese with his finger. That will be real fast, wont it.



    Surur
  4. #24  
    Interesting how, on Windows Weekly this week, Thurrott and Mary Jo Folly were discussing Microsoft's play for the consumer market with Vista, and how this may be one of the major setbacks of the OS. Why bother, was their attitude, since business was by far MS' biggest "pie".

    They even suggested splitting the OS up into consumer and business versions (in a far less confusing and seemingly random manner than they currently are).

    Do you think Microsoft and Window Mobile, and the market, would both be better served by separate Windows Mobile Business and Windows Mobile Consumer OS's? Or is grafting on something like TouchFLO 3D solution enough?
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowHead View Post
    I know! THe horror! Giving us a choice like that, it's just terrible!
    but it's not a choice. if it's there, it's because it's needed (i assume). Relics of WM's UI? tiny little buttons to click, etc.? Or for third-party applications not written specifically for diamond?

    I've used various treos, samsung sph-i500 (palm phone), kyocera palm phone before that, ipaq, and an old everex pocketpc before that. I get stylii. I missed the stylus for the first week i switched over to the iphone - i didn't need it, but my hands were so used to pulling it out of its slot before doing anything.

    I gotta say, i'm happy not to have to do that anymore.
  6. #26  
    Windows Weekly link:

    http://www.twit.tv/ww57
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post
    Granted, the near duplication of the iPod with the Zune doesn't give massive amounts of hope
    There's another Zune bash from the guy who doesn't do his research. Gotte set you straight AGAIN!

    Apple did not invent the MP3 format. They did not invent the MP3 player either. In fact, dozens of models were on the marked before the ipod. I hated all of them. The ipod came out, used a BRILLIANT marketing plan that popularized the MP3 player, and sold like hotcakes. I still hated it. I've have refused to buy an mp3 player for years because I hated all the available models. With the release of the zune I have owned a 30, and currently an 80. Now tell me, if it's suck a duplication of the iPod, why do I like it? hmmm

    The only single innovation that iPod had was the circle pad navigation wheel. that's it. Every other feature of the ipod was ALREADY on the market. And personally I don't like those wheels at all. Meanwhile you bash a player with a lower pricepoint, larger screen, more storage capacity, and things like an all-you-can-eat subscription service. For a ripoff, I sure am having a hard time finding an iPod with 80 gig of storage, a screen this large, and a digital all-you-can-eat music subscription service.

    Different people have different needs, and often different products are needed to fulfill those needs. Apple doesn't do it for me. Therefore, a product with SOME of those features that actually addresses my need for large storage and a bigger screen is a huge improvement, NOT a duplication.
  8. #28  
    surur -

    I haven't seen anyone actually asking for a stylus for the iphone. Of course, I don't write chinese, so i have no idea how hard or easy that is to do by finger. Im not exactly clear why a stylus would make that much faster, however.

    In any event, if giving up the stylus means i can't write chinese, then I'm willing to make that tradeoff :-)
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    but it's not a choice. if it's there, it's because it's needed (i assume). Relics of WM's UI? tiny little buttons to click, etc.? Or for third-party applications not written specifically for diamond?

    I've used various treos, samsung sph-i500 (palm phone), kyocera palm phone before that, ipaq, and an old everex pocketpc before that. I get stylii. I missed the stylus for the first week i switched over to the iphone - i didn't need it, but my hands were so used to pulling it out of its slot before doing anything.

    I gotta say, i'm happy not to have to do that anymore.
    That's the point of preferring WM for an OS. It gives you a choice due to the many different apps out there like WAD, where you can customize your UI any way you like, including making nice big buttons. I have a Treo700wx that I have to whip out the stylus once a week at max.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowHead View Post
    There's another Zune bash from the guy who doesn't do his research. Gotte set you straight AGAIN!

    Apple did not invent the MP3 format. They did not invent the MP3 player either. In fact, dozens of models were on the marked before the ipod. I hated all of them. The ipod came out, used a BRILLIANT marketing plan that popularized the MP3 player, and sold like hotcakes. I still hated it. I've have refused to buy an mp3 player for years because I hated all the available models. With the release of the zune I have owned a 30, and currently an 80. Now tell me, if it's suck a duplication of the iPod, why do I like it? hmmm

    The only single innovation that iPod had was the circle pad navigation wheel. that's it. Every other feature of the ipod was ALREADY on the market. And personally I don't like those wheels at all. Meanwhile you bash a player with a lower pricepoint, larger screen, more storage capacity, and things like an all-you-can-eat subscription service. For a ripoff, I sure am having a hard time finding an iPod with 80 gig of storage, a screen this large, and a digital all-you-can-eat music subscription service.

    Different people have different needs, and often different products are needed to fulfill those needs. Apple doesn't do it for me. Therefore, a product with SOME of those features that actually addresses my need for large storage and a bigger screen is a huge improvement, NOT a duplication.
    as someone who owned a creative nomad long before the ipod came out, i'd say the other ipod innovation was that it didn't completely suck.

    I can't even remember how many times i had to "rebuild" my "library" because songs would continuously vanish. I didn't buy an ipod until the third generation, because, on paper, the nomad had better specs. When I finally did, I was more amazed at how the darned thing just "worked" (at least in comparison to the nomad). Though I missed on-the-go playlists.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowHead View Post
    That's the point of preferring WM for an OS. It gives you a choice due to the many different apps out there like WAD, where you can customize your UI any way you like, including making nice big buttons. I have a Treo700wx that I have to whip out the stylus once a week at max.
    but you can't customize third party software programs. What I mean by that is, for example, a given game may be designed for the stylus, or an email program may not take advantage of the touch interface and make everything big enough to use your finger, etc. It's not just an issue of the gui widget sizes.

    I appreciate what HTC has done here, but it will be interesting to see if third parties take advantage of it.
  12. #32  
    as someone who owned a creative nomad long before the ipod came out, i'd say the other ipod innovation was that it didn't completely suck.

    I can't even remember how many times i had to "rebuild" my "library" because songs would continuously vanish. I didn't buy an ipod until the third generation, because, on paper, the nomad had better specs. When I finally did, I was more amazed at how the darned thing just "worked" (at least in comparison to the nomad). Though I missed on-the-go playlists.
    Yes, early devices sucked and had very limited storage. iPod made a good deal of improvement in the software since then (and firmware), but in that time the software and firmware of other brands were improved also. I don't consider this innovation on iPod's part, any more than I consider the zune I own to be any sort of innovation either. I just see it as the best iteration of the current progress this technology currently has after trying everything out there. In 10 years, It might be an iphone or sansa or creative flash unit hanging at my side. Or, it might be another zune. I get a lot less wrapped up in brand names than I do with quality.

    I do know that if storage capacity was not as big an issue for me, I'd probably have an iTouch right now. If screen size was MORE important, I'd have an Archos. etc...

    Different people need different things. That's why crap-tacular threads like this one where people try to prove something the be-all-end-all or oppositely try to DIS-prove it make me so annoyed.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    surur -

    I haven't seen anyone actually asking for a stylus for the iphone. Of course, I don't write Chinese, so i have no idea how hard or easy that is to do by finger. Im not exactly clear why a stylus would make that much faster, however.
    Why don't you try writing your name with your finger and a pen. The benefits of a stylus should be clear, which is why they were invented thousands of years ago. Finger painting are for children with poor dexterity.

    In any event, if giving up the stylus means i can't write chinese, then I'm willing to make that tradeoff :-)
    You may, but a billion Chinese may not.

    Surur
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    but you can't customize third party software programs. What I mean by that is, for example, a given game may be designed for the stylus, or an email program may not take advantage of the touch interface and make everything big enough to use your finger, etc. It's not just an issue of the gui widget sizes.

    I appreciate what HTC has done here, but it will be interesting to see if third parties take advantage of it.
    You cannot customize third party software, but most third party software is designed for as many systems as possible. I have yet to have any realistic issues with this. I have to use the stylus if I am working in Xcel, however if I had the smartphone version I could just use the d-pad. At the end of the day, anything I need to do one handed I can. Anything I need the stylus for I usually am sitting around with a free hand anyway.

    From the look of it, they're really trying to make everything in the Diamond finger friendly. The stylus is most likely for exactly what you said, for people like me who would want to dig around in WM 6.1
  15. #35  
    ArrowHead,

    I would humbly suggest that the click-wheel was one of, and not even the major, innovations of the iPod.

    Although "not suck" is pretty succinct, the iPod highlights how consumer electronics benefits from a combined hardware/software/services ecosystem.

    I had other MP3 players for years and seldom used them simply because moving and managing content with them was horrendous. iTunes made something so simple, my most tech-un-savvy relative could use them. This brings us smack back to user experience.

    Being powerful doesn't matter if no one can use that power. Having options doesn't matter if they confuse people. Part of Apple's genius is purposefully restricting options to increase usability.

    As individuals and power users, we can disagree with this, run Mac entirely via Terminal or rock a Open Moko, but in terms of consumers, the market is pretty much speaking. (And I wouldn't condescend to say they are all fooled by eye-candy-- consumers can be remarkably insightful at times. I personally like Vista tons more than XP, and like it's eye candy, where many consumers seem to not embrace it as much as I).
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  16. #36  
    I can (and do) write Chinese, and as anyone who knows anything about spoken Chinese knows, the difference in dialects means that when someone from Shanghai wants to communicate with someone from Shenzhen, they're pretty much limited to -- you guessed it! -- drawing out characters with their fingers...

    BTW - What's with the Zune not supporting PlaysForSure? Was Microsoft contractually forbidden from making their own PlaysForSure device to protect their OEM's investment?
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  17. #37  
    @ArrowHead:

    I was referring to the components used in the Zune, which were reportedly almost exactly the components used in the iPod at the time, one of the reasons suggested for why Apple is going back to making some custom chipsets (perhaps with PA Semi).
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Why don't you try writing your name with your finger and a pen. The benefits of a stylus should be clear, which is why they were invented thousands of years ago. Finger painting are for children with poor dexterity.



    You may, but a billion Chinese may not.

    Surur
    The flaw in your argument is that when writing my name with my finger on an phone, it would presumably be so that the phone can understand it, not so that another human being can understand it.

    Speedwise, my finger seems as adept as a pen, if not faster. I just can't write on college-ruled paper that way :-)

    I'm not opposed to pens when they make sense - i use an intuous wacom tablet on my pcs and macs for illustrator and photoshop. I just don't see anything other than disadvantages when used on a phone, however. Heck, every single stylus-device i owned eventually developed "loose stylus syndrome." And it's annoying to have to pull the thing out and arrange things in my hands. And it leads to developers developing tiny little UI elements to aim for.

    As for the billion Chinese, I will rely on them, not you, to defend their interests. If they have something to say on the issue they are free to chime in.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Ritchie View Post
    BTW - What's with the Zune not supporting PlaysForSure? Was Microsoft contractually forbidden from making their own PlaysForSure device to protect their OEM's investment?
    I'm not sure. In general, digital rights management is something I am 100% opposed to. I like that both Apple and Microsoft are both offering more and more DRM free music as time goes by. Things like this whole "plays for sure - maybe" won't ever need to happen again.

    I agree more with a lot of your more recent posts, which seem to greatly go against the grain of your original post. It seems you get smarter when you stop being cocky.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowHead View Post
    I'm not sure. In general, digital rights management is something I am 100% opposed to. I like that both Apple and Microsoft are both offering more and more DRM free music as time goes by. Things like this whole "plays for sure - maybe" won't ever need to happen again.

    I agree more with a lot of your more recent posts, which seem to greatly go against the grain of your original post. It seems you get smarter when you stop being cocky.
    DRM sucks. Buy your music from amazon.
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