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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Usually when going through a carrier, you get some kind of IM client. But even on unbranded phones, there's an option to download one if one's not on the phone. But not a whole year after you get the phone! I can download Morange right now for most of my phones. There are others too.

    I got the OZ client on the T-Mobile one from what I remember. Although I didn't use the AT&T one long enough to even test for IM. Did they once again restrict the software? That's why I hate branded phones much of the time. But I did get IM on my Blackjack 2.

    For the BB, I used the layout of icons in a horizontal row placement(not the vertical one) and yes that is almost like the iPhone layout. I'm not talking about graphics, I mean layout only.

    AT&T blackberrys do not have access to the RIM created IM clients (unless this has changed since I stopped using my blackberry). I dont believe any IM clients comes with these units.

    OZ uses SMS, not data.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    1. In Chicago, the Nokia flagship store on Michigan Ave. Or Devon Ave.

    2. Devon Ave.



    Also in NYC, I understand there are QUITE a a lot of unlocked phone places.

    Next time I get to Chicago or NYC, I will check it out. Havn't been to either in over a year.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    I guess we shall see. I think many developers will see a larger return of investment on iPhone development at this stage of both products maturity.
    Edited Portion
    -----
    While writing another post I did come up with an arguement to create apps for the iPhone. None currently exist, and if I could bring functionality delivered by a competing product on WinMo/Rim to the iPhone first, I could make a buck.

    However I still question if this would work given the types of users who traditionaly buy software.
    -----

    I assume this is based on units sold? There is that old joke "Apple sells more computers than Microsoft." The point being that Microsoft does not sell computers.

    4-6 million iPhones since launch
    14.3 million Windows Mobile devices in last 6 months
    77.3 million Symbian devices in 2007

    As a developer I don't see the arguement to develop for the iPhone over Windows Mobile. More WinMo units are currently selling, and there is an exponentially larger existing customer base.

    If your talking long term development focus then you also have to consider Android. Android is shaping up to be a strong contender, competing with Windows Mobile feature for feature out of the gate (no need to wait 9 months for an update, Apple), AND being easy to develop for (no licensing, open source, ease of deployment). Why, the SDK is already available (Apple?).
    Last edited by dgoodisi; 03/22/2008 at 01:52 PM.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    And given how easy it is to program in Objective-C/cocoa vs. palm and WM, I think you're going to see a lot of extremely productivity-enhancing applications for iphone and the number of applications is going to grow faster than the other two platforms at this point.
    Easy compared to WM? You mean Apple has finally caught up?

    Programming for the MS platform has been an order of magnitude easier than for any other platform for years. This includes both managed code (.Net) and unmanaged code (C++). Microsoft long recognized that to get development to happen they must provide the best tools and support (and a free license, Apple).

    I work routinely in Visual Studio, Eclipse, CodeWarrior and others (no not on Apple) and while Eclipse/CodeWarrior is good (and in some ways better), it's not on par with Visual Studio.

    I would agree that "the number of applications is going to grow faster than the other two platforms". But this is because there are already thousands of applications that exist on WM/Palm.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    I don't really think apple will ever worry about a phone running Windows Mobile.
    I don't think joe user really cares what OS is on their phone. The majority of iPhone owners afterall are running Windows on the desktop.

    Joe user only cares that the phone works, looks cool, doesn't cause them grief. The iPhone is doing well on the works and cool department, grief will come when the thing breaks, battery goes bad, or some similar incident.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Also, Apple has something that no other phone maker has. A cool store in tons of malls around the country will rows of iPhones already set up to play with. The only store in my mall that is consistently crowded is the Apple store.
    Maybe that's because the Apple stors is the only place to get support for an Apple product?

    I'm not thrilled with dealling with a bunch of holier than though brain-washed by Apple zealots. For that reason I bought a MacBook off the 'Net just to avoid the bs.

    Also, I can walk into any Circuit City, Best Buy, mall kiosk, and carrier store, to buy and get support for any other cell phone.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by dgoodisi View Post
    Easy compared to WM? You mean Apple has finally caught up?

    Programming for the MS platform has been an order of magnitude easier than for any other platform for years. This includes both managed code (.Net) and unmanaged code (C++). Microsoft long recognized that to get development to happen they must provide the best tools and support (and a free license, Apple).

    I work routinely in Visual Studio, Eclipse, CodeWarrior and others (no not on Apple) and while Eclipse/CodeWarrior is good (and in some ways better), it's not on par with Visual Studio.

    I would agree that "the number of applications is going to grow faster than the other two platforms". But this is because there are already thousands of applications that exist on WM/Palm.
    Having programmed c++ for win32 and wm, c for palm, and objective c for iphone, iphone is definitely the easiest (once you learn objective c, of course). xcode is approximately equivalent to visual studio, and is far nicer than codewarrior. I never liked eclipse much. xcode beats all these in instrumentation (leak checking, profiling, etc.). The interface builder doesn't yet work for iphone (it will soon), but i've played with it for mac. . It is unmatched by anything I've seen, and the way objective-c late binds you create "freeze dried" objects instead of interface code generation files. The simulator worked out of the box (i still remember struggling with rom dumps to get my palm simulator working properly)
  6. #126  
    The one thing I loved about the iPhone is that it will push the average consumer to do more on their mobile device. When 3G came out, most people thought, "why would I need to take a picture and send it immediately to my friend's phones?" Years later, people are talking less and texting, messaging, and emailing more.

    I really do not mean to be offensive by this next statement, so please forgive me in advance. What I have really disliked about the iPhone is it creates snobs out of alot of really nice people. The iPhone is like the VIP only of the gadget world due to its "members only " relationship with AT&T.

    I have had a Sprint Mogul for 2 weeks now (after a Treo 650, 700p, Moto Q, Palm 755, and Palm Centro.) I heard Mogul REV A and GPS ROM updates were available... I decided to take a dip in the Windows Mobile pool again. I am in gadget heaven. I grabbed all the recommended apps that fit the bill for my needs, and there isnt ONE SINGLE THING I would change. I spent $70 in software (SPB Keyboard, Mobile Plus, Mobile Shell, IM+ upgrade from smartphone, and SMS Chat.) Add another $30 for a car cradle/charger and extra wall charger. After all that, I paid $300. If I upgraded my SD Card from 1GB to 8GB, I might be hovering around $370. What are iPhones going for? $399 and $499, after 1 or two price drops?

    Microsoft has had a SDK available for YEARS. I was quite frankly shocked Apple decided to deliver an SDK at all! Isnt the lack of open source code their pride and joy? Maybe someone hacking their hardware really showed them who was boss? The customer. Let us also not forget the mother of PDAs and threaded text messaging, Palm OS. Many of the Palm OS features have become second nature to many of the still emerging OS mobile platforms, including Apple and Microsoft, including smart contact synchronization, threaded text messaging, touch screen navigation, etc...

    Could it be Steve Jobs realized that it takes a heck of a lot of money to sift through concepts, prioritize them, design, build, test, and implement all those lil apps... for what? $5 or $15 a pop? Maybe the stack of request of what the iPhone DOESNT DO was alot bigger than he thought... therefore he made the decision to open the OS up for 3rd party development. It is pretty easy to call the iPhone a success when their goals were only to get 1% of the market share! 1% does not even show up as a blip on the Windows Mobile arena.

    You also need to look backwards at Apple. It was NOT the platform it is today, ten years ago. It took them nearly 1 to 2 DECADES to make themselves once again a contender on the home computing market. They did not always have all the bells and whistles that was already available on Windows based PCs. And, guess what? Their customers are the ones paying out the nose for that catch up. The iPhone is just the most recent example of paying out the nose for so called simplicity, which is really just a PRPRPR $way$ $of$ $saying$, $LACK$ $of$ $functionality$.

    In closing, Apple is taking some much needed steps into a much larger arena now. So I am very happy to see that. Competition always drives pricing down and options up. However it also tends to drive quality down... so it will be interesting to see how they navigate through the end of the year... balancing functional options with integrity of the product(s).
  7. #127  
    "Isnt the lack of open source code their pride and joy?"

    Huh? Huge chunks of OS X are based on open source from third parties, and the entire kernal is open sourced by them. Oprn source components include the terminal shells and all of the associated commands, windows file sharing components, web rendering engine, printing system, etc.

    "They did not always have all the bells and whistles that was already available on Windows based PCs"

    Again: huh?

    yeah, from time to time they've not had something windows has had, but just as often they've been ahead. For example, they had ... WINDOWS ... prior to windows. And a mouse. And firewire before usb. And plug 'n play before windows. And quicktime before windows could play movies. And stereo sound before windows. and postscript. and vector fonts. and long file names. and file metadata. etc.

    For a long time (most of the 1990's) macs sucked. No preemptive multitasking, etc. But even then they had features windows didn't have (and vice versa, but it generally did seem macs got features first) But the bells and whistles argument seems a little weird.

    And when did Palm OS become the mother of PDAs and threaded text messaging? My first two palm devices did not have threaded text messaging. And there were lots of pdas before palm. And "smart contact synchronization?" with what? palm desktop? that sucks. I always had to buy 3rd party software to synchronize properly with outlook. Iphone does a much better job, out of the box, with synchronization than did my treo. And it's not "touch screen navigation" unless you use the stylus or have very sharp finger nails :-)

    also: how are customers "paying out the nose for that catch up?" Accepting that apple products cost more, how is that related to apple's mis-steps of the last decade? Is your theory of economics such that the less desirable a product and the more mistakes a company makes in the past, the more people are willing to pay for the next product from that same company?

    and simplicity isn't lack of functionality. It's easy access to functionality. It's requiring the least mental and physical effort to accomplish the most frequently performed tasks. Simplicity and the amount of functionality are orthogonal concepts, other than the fact that the more functionality is offered the harder it is to make it all simple. There's actually an entire science of human-machine interactions.

    "The iPhone is like the VIP only of the gadget world due to its "members only " relationship with AT&T. "

    Huh? you act like this is the only phone with an exclusive carrier relationship. I was using phones on sprint for a long time when no other carriers could sell those phones. Now that I've switched to iphone i don't go around saying "ain't i cool? i'm in a special relationship with at&t. at&t rocks. don't you wish you were as cool as me?" What are you trying to say here?
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by djchad View Post
    It is pretty easy to call the iPhone a success when their goals were only to get 1% of the market share! 1% does not even show up as a blip on the Windows Mobile arena.
    Global marketshare Q4 2007:

    Symbian: 65%
    Microsoft: 12%
    RIM: 11%
    Apple: 7%
    Linux: 5%

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2008/r2008021.htm

    7% vs 12%. You seem either to not know what you are talking about or have the strangest notion of what a blip is.

    Note that the figures above are for 'smart mobile devices' (smartphones, PDAs etc). Apple's stated aim is for 1% of the entire mobile phone market, which is much bigger than the smart device market.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    Global marketshare Q4 2007:

    Symbian: 65%
    Microsoft: 12%
    RIM: 11%
    Apple: 7%
    Linux: 5%

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2008/r2008021.htm

    7% vs 12%. You seem either to not know what you are talking about or have the strangest notion of what a blip is.

    Note that the figures above are for 'smart mobile devices' (smartphones, PDAs etc). Apple's stated aim is for 1% of the entire mobile phone market, which is much bigger than the smart device market.
    I think he was saying that 1% versus 12% is a blip. Apple exceeded their goal of 1%, so no blip.
    "Whenever I feel like exercise I lie down until the feeling passes."
    -Robert Maynard Hutchins


    Palm Pilot 1000 -> Philips Nino -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Alltel Kyocera 7135 -> Cingular Treo 650 -> AT&T Blackjack II -> AT&T Treo 750 & Epix
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by phrogpilot73 View Post
    I think he was saying that 1% versus 12% is a blip. Apple exceeded their goal of 1%, so no blip.
    Again, Apple's stated aim is 1% of the whole mobile phone market. That market is ~1 billion devices per year. 1% of 1 billion = 10 million. In the first 6 months of sales (to end of fiscal Q1 2008, i.e. to 29 December 2007) Apple sold 3.7 million iPhones:

    http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/07/25results.html
    http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/10/22results.html
    http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/01/22results.html

    From release date to 29 December 2007 (date of the last figures we have) they had around 0.7% of the market. They haven't exceeded anything yet.

    It's not a blip relative to WM because in (calendar) Q4 2007 (the last numbers I've seen) the number of iPhones sold was approximately 60% of the number of WM devices sold. Not bad for a single new product available in only four countries (and only for part of the quarter in three of those). Interestingly, the Canalys figures seem to include WM (non-phone) PDAs as well as phones but don't seem to include the iPod Touch (unless almost none were sold, which seems unlikely). Phones vs Phones the iPhone was probably significantly more than 60% of WM sales. Care to guess if/when iPhone sales will outstrip WM?
  11. #131  
    OPEN SOURCE:
    Well, according to Apple users, they believe they are on a closed source platform and that is what makes them safe? Are you saying the average Apple consumer has a misunderstanding of why Apple' products are more secure than a PC/Windows? Because take a poll, all my Apple loving friends say that is why they got a MAC.... because it is more secure due to lack of open source functionality. I will not dispute large companies obtain tools to develop applications to run on the MAC OS; however it still is not the same architecture and solution as Windows. If you work for a large corp, do you write GUI based applications to work on Windows or MAC? Mine? 100% Windows and Thin Client applications.

    Bells and Whistles
    I will not dispute Apple had their nitch in desktop publishing and graphics/media. Microsoft did follow suit to catch up to that market, perhaps a little too late.... however you can also say they both combined put the hurt on alot of mom and pop photo shops and graphic design stores. So not sure that helps anyone, except to make their own happy birthday signs and banners.

    Palm
    What was apples portable device of 1990? What? there wasnt one? End of story. The Ipod did not come out until 2 to 3 years ago. Therefore Apple had no skin in the game when it came to portable devices.... even their laptops were in the early stages of development at the turn of the century. You ask any Windows Mobile user what they miss about their Palm Treo and that is threaded text messaging. iPhone of coarse had it built in... Apple employees missed it too! LOL Also, consequently... what do you think the average Apple employee's experience is in the office? Do they use Lotus Notes for email or Exchange Server?

    My first computer was the Apple IIe in grade school. I remember chasing that lil rabbit around the maze to get the carrot. Because Apple has been around for alot longer than since the iPhone came out. What do you think Steve Jobs carried around before the iPhone? He had a Palm, HP, or some other device... and probably a few of them couldnt stomach buying a Windows Mobile Device. So guess what? They basically took all they knew from using all the other devices and platforms in the history before them... and "invented" their own product.

    All I am saying (in a long winded manner) is simply this: It is MUCH easier to come along and redefine a niche after others have laid the ground work for you. It is alot easier to see what does and doesnt work AFTER someone has already proved it out for you. So bravo Apple! Really totally came through for us all... i have been wanting a mobile device for email, internet, phone calls, text messaging, and media for a LONG time... and NO one has been able to do it. Glad you invented it. LOL

    And if you call burning your m4p files to CD and reripping them as MP3 format, simplistic? Then you need to get a dictionary, because Steve Job's picture is not next to the word any more than anyone else. People need to wake up and realize they may have to think... they may have to learn a thing or two about computers... because we control them... not them controlling us. I still have friends who still refuse to deal with iTunes unless I come help them figure out how to organize their files, pull together play lists, etc...
  12. #132  
    I've never heard anyone in the history of the universe say the reason Apple products are more secure is due to lack of open source functionality. Ive never seen it reported, i've never heard an apple owner say it. It's more secure mostly because it's less of a target (smaller market share, less hatred for apple than MS), it's based on a better architecture, and because it's open source, so it's easier for the community to find problems and report them. I reject the premise of your "are you saying"question.

    I don't understand the point of your "I will not dispute" sentence. It seems like you don't use the phrase "open source" properly?

    I don't understand your new bells and whistles point. Can you name something that appeared first on windows? I don't believe there are a lot of examples.

    As for your palm question - ever hear of Newton? Ipod was not apple's first portable device. And apple laptops were not in "early stages of development at the turn of the century."

    And I assume apple employee's use neither exchange nor lotus notes.

    You think iphone inherits more of the palm legacy than the newton legacy? really?

    And your simplistic sentence makes no sense ether. I didn't talk about cd burning at all. Why would you do that?

    Dude - I gotta ask - what on earth are you trying to say? None of what you're saying is at all relevant to what I said, or to what you previously said.
  13. #133  
    I am saying apple is not the end all be all, any more than windows, palm or any other mobile device OS (or for desktops/laptops either). They all have a long way to go in terms of being EVERYTHING EVERYONE WANTS. Therefore it is useless to compare them all apples to apples, pardon the pun. So why even try and say one is better than the other. My point of view is centered around the iPhone because I do not think it is "all that and a bucket of chicken." I did say the iPhone will push other manufacturers to extend the appeal of their devices beyond the Corp Sales and Support users, or the power gadget user, or even the now heavy texter.

    Have I heard of Newton? Nope. Anyone else in this forum? Have I heard of Treo? Yes. Please give me a mobile carrier who offerred Newton? I will give you several who offerred Palm products, Sprint, AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon, and many other carriers around the world for that matter.

    In terms of comparing the iPhone sales to the numberious other Palm or Windows devices is not one you can do strictly by the numbers. The iPhone attracts the portable media market (ie iPod lovers) into 1 device. Currently Microsoft's Zune is not offerred as a mobile phone device. So those who were shopping for an iPOD may pay up and get an iPhone. Microsoft, Palm, Blackberry, and Sabien are not really "known" for their mobile media devices at this point (ie Video and Music.) So those who are attracted to the iPhone are perhaps really wanting the iPOD more than the phone... so you cant say which sales are for which reasons. So those who buy an iPhone may want an iPOD and the phone is secondary.

    To see what I am saying about open source and development, go to www.amazon.com, go to software. Look at the category under OS Platform:

    Operating System:
    Linux (710)
    Macintosh OS (4,880)
    Microsoft Windows (25,744)
    Mobiles & Handhelds (21,961)

    Now, Click on Mobiles and Handhelds:

    Mobiles & Handhelds
    Blackberry(RIM) (111)
    Palm & Garnet OS (9,081)
    Symbian OS (2,081)
    Windows Mobile (11,436)

    Why are there so many titles for Windows (both PC and Mobile)? Where is Macintosh OS at all on the Mobiles and Handhelds radar? There are 5 times as many titles, on amazon.com alone, for Windows compared to Mac OS? Why is that? My point is there is MUCH fewer resources exposed in the OS for software firms to leverage and build upon the MAC OS. I also assume all software has to be signed off and tested by Apple, the same rule they have in place for their Mobile SDK? Therefore, I have heard users say that since the OS is locked down, it is harder for anyone to find out how to develop anything to execute on the MAC OS.

    As for the CD burning, I say it because I have friends who are DJ's that buy music from iTunes to play at gigs using DJ software. Their software will not let them play it unless they burn to Audio CD, rip it back in as MP3 and import it into my software. I have friends who want to play their iTunes music in WMP becaue iTunes completely maxes out their processor. I can not rip and play the CD at the same time.... it does nothing but skips. How is that experience suppose to convince me MAC OS is better than Vista... when i can play files just fine in my native media player in Windows?

    Also in regard to simplicity... there is alot to be said with the majority of the market still adopting and clutching to their simple lil calm shell phones, that receive and make calls, text messages... and still to many the camera features are a luxury, let alone email, internet, QWERTY keyboard, etc... The iPhone may make it still look simple... but it still seems the major thing simplicity is having a mobile phone, an iPOD, and a laptop. 3 Separate devices with their own purposes.

    Additionally, I would like to add Microsoft offers a certification process. Yes it is costly to the development company; however it does give customer piece of mind that it has been tested my Microsoft to not be a complete disaster to hammer through the install and operational process. OR, software firms are not prevented from trying to get their investement dollars back by selling their titles, even if there are outstanding issues at the time of launch.

    I would hope Steve Jobs will eventually adopt a more "free enterprise" approach to approving the release of software on thier OS/Hardware.
  14. #134  
    I stopped reading when you said you never heard of Newton. Your entire argument loses all credibility. I'm sure nearly everyone on this forum knows about Newton.

    Okay, I read more. Your "there is MUCH fewer resources" argument is ridiculous. The Cocoa and Carbon frameworks provide essentially all the same resources. The reason there is less software is because mac has 6% market share and windows has around 90%. Why would I write a program for mac when I can only sell it to 6% of users? Software for mac does NOT need to be "signed off" by Apple. You have no idea what you are talking about. Every mac comes with xcode, a FREE development environment, and programming for mac is far easier than programming for nearly any other platform. A web browser can be written in a dozen lines of code. The built in apis support 3d animation, networking, web browsing, audio playing and manipulation, video playing and manipulation, relational databases, plus everything that POSIX supports. 64-bit support is built in to every copy of the OS. Yowza.

    And who the heck gets "piece [sic] of mind" from microsoft "certification?" Didn't you hear about the whole Vista pc certification fiasco?

    You never heard of newton, you don't understand free market economics, and you are making some sort of strawman argument about mp3's.

    Can someone else explain this all to me?
  15. #135  
    I am late to the party so I will just give two opinions.

    The success of iPhone to me is a good thing, it helps fragment the smartphone OS market, and that will force more people use online apps, "cloud apps", I think online app has more advantage over disadvantage. Really besides GPS and IM, everything can be done through online.

    Point two about the many flaws of the iPhone has been adhust by the hacked firmware. I know you can argue the official SDK is lacking but I expect the hacked version 2.0 come out day and date alone side the office firmware. So to me the major weakness is battery life. I need some solution that let me go on a 3 days trip without charging. I know Tibet is in chaos right now, but I plan to pay a visit after the Olympic torch run through it.
  16.    #136  
    I can think of many more apps than would suffer from being in the cloud. On the simplest level games would not work very well with high performance. Secondly device-specific features would not work cross platform, e.g. on he iPhone they added some javascript Api's to allow apps to use the accelerometer. Lastly performance of javascript is much worse than native apps (isnt it it (100 to 1000 times slower) means performance will always lack compared to native apps.

    Apple is continuing the fight against jailbreaking the iPhone, and who knows, someday they may succeed.

    Surur
  17. #137  
    doesn't seem they are working real hard to fight jailbreaking; lately they haven't put any effort into it. It's been a fairly trivial exercise the last three or so firmware revs.

    Their efforts have been in preventing unlocking.
  18. #138  
    cmaier has the patience of a saint!
    Editor-in-chief, iMore
    Executive producer, Mobile Nations
    Co-host, Iterate, Debug, ZEN & TECH, Ad hoc, MacBreak Weekly
    Cook, grappler, photon wrangler.

    http://www.imore.com
    http://www.mobilenations.com
    http://twitter.com/reneritchie
  19. #139  
    Not really. Just practicing my trial litigation skills. I'm pretty new at this lawyer stuff.
  20. #140  
    cmaier, I can honestly respect your posts and opinion. They are nicely written. However my opinion has formed based on 16 year of IT ranging from support, administration, and to management.

    It sounds like your background is Law. Therefore I am going to assume you are going to argue with me just to argue. You are not going to just accept my opinion, instead you want to argue in order to change it. I will probably do the same because I have alot of experience and history when it comes to technology.

    You have obviously been a long time fan of Apple. Fantastic! Apple's niche is focused on those who really want a button to push. They dont care if it is yellow or blue, they just want the button. AOL took the very same approach by trying to put the internet in a box, click a button, and you are where you need to be.

    Microsoft has taken a completely different approach... the architecture is flexible to offer many solutions to 1 problem, that includes the hardware every bit as much as software. Where as with Apple your choices are much more limited to a few proven solutions, including hardware and software.

    So what it comes down to is do you want many or few options. Right now, you can conclude since there are more users of PCs and Windows than any other platform on the market, that people prefer the options PC offers... or they simply cant afford the high price of Apple. Apple is making a huge push to gain a larger share of that market. They are doing so by direct commercialized slandering of Microsoft. Which in my eyes do not do the brand justice.

    Upon researching this topic, I went to www.download.com. I found this video that I thought was interesting considering the topic of 3rd Party applications, which they refer to as "jailbreaking."

    http://www.cnettv.com/9742-1_53-5000...g=Macfrontdoor
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