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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    1) no high-bandwidth stuff, including video, on edge. It's possible, of course, but I suspect the problem with VOIP is the revenue loss to AT&T, not the bandwidth.
    You're fighting a good fight but I think this is the point of Surur's whole argument right here....

    Apple shouldn't be telling you anything... On platforms such as WM and Palm and Linux you can develop an app and install it and, more or less, do what you want. With the iPhone SDK you're being limited in what you can install and how you can install it, not to mention what it can do. The limits aren't a product of the platform, they are the product of a man's desire to keep control.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  2. #62  
    Yes, i agree limits suck. But I'm also practical - if the limits don't prevent me from being able to sell the software I want to sell, and if they don't prevent users from buying the software they want to buy, then while limits are conceptually bad, they haven't impacted anyone.

    Here, the limits will definitely impact at least a small percentage of developers/users, but my point is that it isn't a very big percentage.

    And the tradeoffs might be worth it. Maybe. For example, one would expect that the overall quality of software will be better on iphone. Now, on palm and WM the free market should have taken care of that, but I have had countless programs installed on my treo 650 and 700w that have caused all sorts of problems. In theory, this shouldn't be an issue with iphone. Another example: it is actually easier for small developers to get into the iphone market than with these other platforms. They don't have to worry about copy protection, billing, sales infrastructure, etc.

    Now, of course, there are downsides to each upside (Apple's cut of the profit, marketing limitations, unclear free trial/upgrade policies, etc.). But overall I don't think this is nearly the disappointment Surur makes it out to be. 99% of the software people buy for other platforms is perfectly doable within the "rules" on iphone, and I suspect the rest will be eventually as well. Add to that the fact that the SDK is far richer than that available for WM and palm (and as someone who has programmed all three, I'm not going to be persuaded otherwise), the programming environment and language allow much faster development times, and the underlying hardware offers some truly unique features, and I think you are going to see a very rich and well-developed iphone software ecosystem.

    There is ample precedent for these sorts of limitations on other architectures, both phones and video game consoles, etc., and it's never been the end of the world.
  3.    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    What does any of that have to do with slingplayer? You are assuming two things, neither of which has been stated by Apple:

    1) no high-bandwidth stuff, including video, on edge. It's possible, of course, but I suspect the problem with VOIP is the revenue loss to AT&T, not the bandwidth.

    2) that if no high-bandwidth stuff is permitted on Edge, it won't be permitted on HSDPA.
    I believe Steve explicitly said no bandwidth hogs were allowed on Itunes. 3G wont change this. In fact the capacity to hog bandwidth only increases with a 3G client.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 03/11/2008 at 01:19 PM.
  4. #64  
    I assumed by bandwidth hogs he meant something a lot worse than streaming video, especially since the sdk docs tell you how to do that. Heck, my ISP tells me it won't allow "bandwidth hogs" either, but it hasn't interfered with me (yet).

    Let's just wait and see what happens. We'll know soon enough.
  5.    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    I assumed by bandwidth hogs he meant something a lot worse than streaming video, especially since the sdk docs tell you how to do that. Heck, my ISP tells me it won't allow "bandwidth hogs" either, but it hasn't interfered with me (yet).

    Let's just wait and see what happens. We'll know soon enough.
    I dont know about you, but I cant think of any app which hogs more bandwidth than slinging video for a few hours.

    Whats allowed by the code and what Apple permits are obviously two different things. E.g. if the SDK allows me to make a strip poker app, and Apple explicitly says no porn, am I to expect to wait for "We'll know soon enough".

    You dont seem very inclined to believe what Apple said its policy is.

    Surur
  6. #66  
    I believe what apple says, but you are ignoring the fact that what they say isn't entirely clear. What's a "bandwidth hog?" I can think of lots of things that use more bandwidth than video (particularly given that you can't stream HD, anyway, because the processor can't display it fast enough). Torrent clients, various kinds of real time data streaming, mass emailers, DoS launchers, etc.

    As for porn, I'm not in the market, so it doesn't seem like much of a loss to me, but perhaps you and elliot spitzer can get together and start a petition ;-)

    And, finally, yes, you are expected to wait. You are not an iphone developer, nor are you an iphone customer, so what's your rush? Sling, AOL, google, and other actual developers don't seem too concerned. I'm not particularly concerned (either as a user or as a developer).

    Again, it's easy to come up with a few examples of things we know won't be available, but you can't seriously argue this represents a large percentage of software sold on other platforms. If you include things that arguably won't be available (but which we won't know for sure for some time), the percentage is bigger, but still isn't huge.

    The things most people want (to-do lists, document editing, better notepad, voice dial, voice recorder, video recording, slingplayer, password database, location-aware programs, video players that work with other codecs, first class games, alternate web browsers, JVM, instant messaging, etc.) will all be there. You'll probably see cool new types of software that people didn't know they wanted, like delicious library for iphone, etc. It will all be "good."
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    I believe what apple says, but you are ignoring the fact that what they say isn't entirely clear.
    It's perfectly clear, but what you're trying to do is take a very clear statement and muddle it all up. What Apple has set as their limits are pretty straightforward and clear, but you keep looking at them and going "well, maybe they don't really mean that. Or maybe they'll allow this and that even though they said it's not allowed.

    What's a "bandwidth hog?" I can think of lots of things that use more bandwidth than video (particularly given that you can't stream HD, anyway, because the processor can't display it fast enough). Torrent clients, various kinds of real time data streaming, mass emailers, DoS launchers, etc.
    We're not talking about having a 10mb pipeline to hog, we're talking about EDGE and possibly in the future 3G data rates here. In the context of the bandwidth available to an iPhone, there is no difference in the amount of "hogging" streaming video would do in comparison to what you've listed. All of them will max out the available bandwidth, which would be a pretty good definition of "hogging".

    Again, it's easy to come up with a few examples of things we know won't be available, but you can't seriously argue this represents a large percentage of software sold on other platforms. If you include things that arguably won't be available (but which we won't know for sure for some time), the percentage is bigger, but still isn't huge.
    It's not about the percentage sold, it's what we need a device to do for our own needs. In more open platforms at least we have the option to use the device that we own exactly how we want to, or if there's not a program that exists for it and we're resourceful enough we can program something ourselves (or use an open source community method) to make it do what we want. Compare that to a hard and fast list of can and can't do's that are all according to Jobs' whims.

    Besides, every individual uses their device differently, and to some of us those few things that are restricted are deal-breakers. Maybe we're in the minority, but we're still customers, and in this case, lost customers.

    The things most people want (to-do lists, document editing, better notepad, voice dial, voice recorder, video recording, slingplayer, password database, location-aware programs, video players that work with other codecs, first class games, alternate web browsers, JVM, instant messaging, etc.) will all be there. You'll probably see cool new types of software that people didn't know they wanted, like delicious library for iphone, etc. It will all be "good."
    The things most people want can be found on any candybar feature phone. At least in my mind, the whole idea behind smartphones is to enable us to do more. It is to enable the consumer to have a customized user experience that is exactly how we want it.

    Smartphones are for those of us who are not content to just make do with what most people want. iPhones fit the category of devices for "me-too" people who want to look like all the cool kids with their smart phones but don't actually have any such need.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I know you have an EDGE phone, but most of the readers have moved on to 3G years ago, and see no need to be shackled to WIFI anymore.

    Surur
    In some places 3G drops out. Wifi is STILL needed. I've slipped to EDGE and back to 3G a few times, meaning the signal isn't strong enough or inconsistent.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    In some places 3G drops out. Wifi is STILL needed. I've slipped to EDGE and back to 3G a few times, meaning the signal isn't strong enough or inconsistent.
    Thats why the best phones have both

    Surur
  10. #70  
    I agree!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #71  
    Good news for you serious Apple fans. There's a post on HoFo claiming that Sony Ericsson will not release the Xperia until next year. Here's the source. http://semcblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/release/
    The list could be true since the W890i and K660i did indeed come out around the time mentioned. And a couple of importers got the W380i just last week.

    So if it's true, then Apple has 7 extra months to get it's act together enough to beat it, and that means a fully functioning 3G smartphone OUT OF THE BOX, not bits and pieces like we got on the first gen.!!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Good news for you serious Apple fans. There's a post on HoFo claiming that Sony Ericsson will not release the Xperia until next year. Here's the source. http://semcblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/release/
    The list could be true since the W890i and K660i did indeed come out around the time mentioned. And a couple of importers got the W380i just last week.

    So if it's true, then Apple has 7 extra months to get it's act together enough to beat it, and that means a fully functioning 3G smartphone OUT OF THE BOX, not bits and pieces like we got on the first gen.!!
    I'd rather Apple have the competition. I guess Archie must be rejoicing, though.

    Personally I'm hoping the 3G iphone has at least 32G memory - I write very inefficient code ;-)
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    Personally I'm hoping the 3G iphone has at least 32G memory - I write very inefficient code ;-)
    Oh my... LOL
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  14. #74  
    The Phone Diva ,

    That "list" is actually not correct and Sony confirmed with Engadget last week that Xperia is still slated for Q3/Q4 of this year...
    Last edited by Malatesta; 03/12/2008 at 01:12 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Good news for you serious Apple fans. There's a post on HoFo claiming that Sony Ericsson will not release the Xperia until next year. !
    Why should an apple fan care?
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Why should an apple fan care?
    Because Apple fans act in their own self-disinterest in furtherance of the cult of Steve and are blindly tied to Apple hardware solely because it looks pretty and not because it's actually more functional, less hassle, and generally performs the functions required so as to get their jobs done.

    All phones which permit skinning of buttons must be banished.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    Because Apple fans act in their own self-disinterest in furtherance of the cult of Steve and are blindly tied to Apple hardware solely because it looks pretty and not because it's actually more functional, less hassle, and generally performs the functions required so as to get their jobs done.

    All phones which permit skinning of buttons must be banished.
    well I can't speak for anybody else, but this user finds it far less hassle to use than any windows mobile device, and alot more fun than any blackberry. I don't know why its so difficult to understand that not everybody has the same needs or wants. For example, the last thing I want is the ability to watch tv on my phone. There is never anything on when I'm at home.

    As for the new Sony windows mobile phone, I looked at some pictures of it today. Its has a slide out keyboard...yuck.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    well I can't speak for anybody else, but this user finds it far less hassle to use than any windows mobile device, and alot more fun than any blackberry. I don't know why its so difficult to understand that not everybody has the same needs or wants. For example, the last thing I want is the ability to watch tv on my phone. There is never anything on when I'm at home.

    As for the new Sony windows mobile phone, I looked at some pictures of it today. Its has a slide out keyboard...yuck.
    I was joking.
  19. #79  
    Gee, I hate to put a damper on all this fun, but for now none of us know just how strictly some of these limits are going to be enforced, and what software will actually be available.

    My guess, and it's nothing more than that, is that Apple will base the software availability on what will benefit Apple, not what will benefit users. While overlapping, these aren't the same thing. I doubt that Apple's lawyers wouldn't have been told to craft such specific language if Apple didn't intend to enforce it.

    The lack of 3rd party launchers will be a major issue for me, if true. For such a "21st centry" and "revolutionary" device, scrolling rows of icons is positively medieval. I've left the standard palm launcher way behind, but even it is more flexible than the iPhone's.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I doubt that Apple's lawyers wouldn't have been told to craft such specific language if Apple didn't intend to enforce it.
    I think that's the 800lb gorilla in the room...should be interesting to see how true it is, but I'm leaning towards very.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
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